The Linnofil Super NAS!

k_numigl · Post by **k_numigl** » 2013-01-30 21:38

Linnofil wrote: A danger with LP12 recorded files may be that you try and listen for the "LP12"

.....not sound, but quality - what else????

k_numigl · Post by **k_numigl** » 2013-01-31 09:21

A short note only, as it relates partly to recording: The type of HDD seems to have less effect on recording than on playing. The Intel 320 and my 1.5 TB 2.5'' USB3 are very very close, the 500 GB 2.5'' Seagate sounds more different. Playback after copy to there via the newly installed Intel 320 (120 GB). (Addendum 1.2.2013: Rec -> HDD1, HDD2, SSD / HDD1+2 -> copy -> SSD; 1x120 GB SSD only in PC, OS on HDD1)

It is nice to see that the Intel 320 seems not inferiour in this respect as well, but perhaps a tiny bit better. Note though that this is not yet with the LS-NAS environment and all cables are unselected random directed standard.

Musical reference is the LP12 via Prism Orpheus AD/DA throughput. After recording, the music should be pretty similar to this. The gap has been closed considerably by using the Intel SSD, apparently mainly by putting it in the playback chain. This is quite exciting! Music is 24/192 exclusively (what results in an uncomfortably large need of 320 space, but still cheap in comparison to a Dynamic).

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-01-31 11:01

k_numigl wrote:A short note only, as it relates partly to recording: The type of HDD seems to have less effect on recording than on playing.

From LP12 directtly stored to SSD vs other SSD&HDD?
Then you move ALL files to another Intel 320 SSD to compare?

PS
Moderator, I suggest open a new thread for this discussion and moving all related posts.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-01-31 11:15

ThomasOK wrote:Just a note that Amazon UK has three of the E45M1-I Deluxe board in stock.

Is it possible to buy from Amazon UK and get it delivered to US?
Or ask a UK forum member to get it for you and send it to you?
When you hear the performance improvement you going to wish you built a LS NAS before!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2013-01-31 19:10

Music Lover wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:Just a note that Amazon UK has three of the E45M1-I Deluxe board in stock.
Is it possible to buy from Amazon UK and get it delivered to US?
Or ask a UK forum member to get it for you and send it to you?
When you hear the performance improvement you going to wish you built a LS NAS before!

Amazon UK will not ship technology products to the US (unlike books which I get all the time). I found this out when I was trying to order the Ethernet cables recommended by you and Linnofil a couple of years ago. I ended up having Linnofil's recommendations shipped to Fredrik and he kindly forwarded them with a Lejonklou shipment.

I'm sure I could find a way to get one from Amazon UK and there are still some available (although I note the three I mentioned are gone and it is a different sub-vendor who comes up now at a bit higher price). However, I'm not sure at this point that I want that particular motherboard. First off, while Linniofil feels it is better than the larger Pro board, it seems nobody has directly compared them in identical setups so he's not sure. Second, he is using the larger Pro version himself and it appears it is very good as well so it is certainly a workable alternative. Third, (and in my mind probably most importantly) there is the question of whether the Deluxe board has been discontinued. I am not looking at the Linnofil Super NAS only as a personal device. Since I work at a Linn store I am also thinking of the possibility of offering this device to customers who don't wish to undertake building one themselves. Because of this I would like to make sure the motherboard is at least still in production and will be available for a while. So if it turns out that the Mini-ITX Deluxe board is truly discontinued I will probably build one more Like Linnofil's with the larger Pro board and different case.

But while I have your attention, Music Lover, I still would like to know if you are using a Yggdrasil for the ripping drive and if you use a separate one from the one for the NAS or if you just use one of the other shelves.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-01-31 21:58

ThomasOK wrote:
But while I have your attention, Music Lover, I still would like to know if you are using a Yggdrasil for the ripping drive and if you use a separate one from the one for the NAS or if you just use one of the other shelves.

No, full focus for time being is on the NAS.
Actually found a position on my dinner table that work reasonably well (Plextor 310 stand alone unit)
Plan to get back testing ripping later on as the NAS has a MUCH greater impact on musicality.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2013-02-01 00:19

Following this with curiosity & interest...

Thomas, I share your concern. Isn't the same problem, as with the Mini ITX mobo, going to happen soon with the Intel 320 SSDs? Hopefully not for a while, but it's a shame the latest solid states don't sound as good :/

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2013-02-01 00:41

Sorry if I missed it Linnofil, but were other motherboards tried too, or just the Asus E45M1 Deluxe and the Pro versions? Wondering what might make them sound better than others... There's an ASRock Mini ITX mobo with the 350 APU vs 450 in the Asus, but with a Hudson M1 North Bridge... Never mind: that's not fanless.

There is an Asus E35M1-I Deluxe listed on Newegg - again, I don't know if the 350 vs 450 makes a difference. Otherwise it looks like the Asus Pro Micro ATX may be the only available 450/M1 mobo solution, in the US at least. Will have to watch to see if the E45M1-I Deluxe becomes more widely available again in Europe...

Thanks for all your work on the Super NAS, and for sharing/supporting here - much appreciated.

k_numigl · Post by **k_numigl** » 2013-02-01 14:28

SSDs with a Phison controller?

The question is obsolete. It seems as if these SSDs do not work at all, so no way to spend money on them.

jiddu_k · Post by **jiddu_k** » 2013-02-02 08:31

Tested and compared some more during the week:

1) Connected my 2.5" Freecom Mobile Drive Classic 80GB via usb 2.0 to the Asus motherboard. The external harddrive runs in my car since 2008 and during the last months I compared it to 4-5 newer 2.5" drives but found it to be substantially better then all of them.
With the Linnophil Super NAS it prooved to be better than the Samsung and the Intel SSD. Again the Intel had superior sound but failded in the groove/drive/interplay realm. ReadyNAS was still the best.

2) Turned the mains plug (provided by FD) on the LS which definitely changed things for the better - there was more rhythmic quality to the Intel SSD, but still considerably less than with the ReadyNAS (and even the Freecom).

3) Changed mains cable to a 2m Lejonklou Power One, which I have not used since last spring but which has been burned in in the years before. This as well made things better rhythmically - but less than turning the plug.

Checking on the the mentioned NAS cases Fractal Design Node 304 (from the list in the first post - untested - mine), Fractal Design Array R2 (swedish LS users) and SilverStone Sugo Series SG02B (Linnofil) I wonder if anyone is aware that the tested Sugo SG02B and Array R2 cases both have the psu at the back making it possible to connect it directly to power via a Linn mains cable. In the Node 304 on the other hand the psu is placed in the front resulting in a low budget mains extension cord that runs from the socket in the back to the psu in the front.
As my LS seems to perform quite poor compared to the rave reviews from others and as changes in the power supply made a considerable difference I think this case is unsuited for a good PC NAS.
I will test a direct connection with the Node 304 (without the cover) and report back.

In the meantime I would advise to stay away from this case - even for test purposes.

k_numigl · Post by **k_numigl** » 2013-02-02 09:51

Do you know which HDD is in the Freecom case?

David Neel · Post by **David Neel** » 2013-02-02 17:27

I've just started to use my LSNAS. The build has been a bit interrupted as I work away from home, so only the weekends are available, but the physical build was done last weekend, and now I have loaded the software. The music files were then copied from my laptop.

I won't post any impressions yet, as several things still need to be done, and I have changed from laptop hard drive/MinimServer/wireless to SSD/Asset/wired, so more than just the LSNAS has been changed. Also, it appears that the PSU will need to burn in.

Linnofil, many thanks for organising the SATA cables, I will fit them as soon as they arrive.

Thomas, if you want any help with parts from the UK, please PM me.

jiddu_k, I will also try the difference with case off and Linn power cord straight into the PSU. I agree that Node 304 may not be an ideal case.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-02-02 18:34

jiddu_k wrote:
In the meantime I would advise to stay away from this case - even for test purposes.

Not so sure about this.
You can do as at least four LS NAS owners had done, get a better PSU = problem solved. With even better performance as a bonus!

And YES many cases can use a Linn/Lejonklou power cord. Same as the additional PSU.
Actually the PSU enhance the LS NAS so much it should be mandatory !!!!

jiddu_k · Post by **jiddu_k** » 2013-02-03 01:14

Music Lover wrote:
jiddu_k wrote:
In the meantime I would advise to stay away from this case - even for test purposes.
Not so sure about this.
You can do as at least four LS NAS owners had done, get a better PSU = problem solved. With even better performance as a bonus!

And YES many cases can use a Linn/Lejonklou power cord. Same as the additional PSU.
Actually the PSU enhance the LS NAS so much it should be mandatory !!!!

There seems to be a misunderstanding - I use the suggested Fractal Design Node 304 case (previously untested) which comes without psu - my psu is the suggested seasonic platinum ss-460fl. The Fractal Design Array R2, that is used by some swedish LS NAS owners, came (it is no longer available) with a psu which should be replaced by the seasonic platinum when funds allow.
I consider the internal mains extension cord in the Fractal Design Node 304 (due to the psu placement in the front) a design flaw and would recommend to choose another case for building a LS NAS.

David Neel · Post by **David Neel** » 2013-02-03 13:33

Time to try the LSNAS against my previous setup of laptop/MinimServer/wireless. The LSNAS is not quite the recommended spec:
1) SATA cables are those supplied with the motherboard, not the Deltacos.
2) I got fed up with AVG free edition as it kept on issuing warnings, despite me continually updating it - so I removed it and installed Microsoft Security Essentials instead.
The Node 304 case is using the internal power extension cable - I will experiment later with taking the case off and putting the Linn power cord directly into the PSU.
The LSNAS is placed on a level stone fireplace (currently unused!) and connected to the regular domestic power, not the dedicated hifi spur.

Initial findings are: LSNAS wins, but it's much closer than I had hoped, especially since my wireless laptop ought to be quite poor? I'm eager to try the Deltaco SATA cables, and then I will experiment with a direct power cord, and with using the hifi spur. If the direct power cord shows an improvement (as expected) then I'll look to change the case.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-02-03 16:32

To avoid misunderstandings, I suggest we all post specs on our LS NAS, I start

• Case; Fractal Design Array R2 – 135€
• PSU; Seasonic platinum X-460FL 460W – 125€
• Motherboard; Asus E45M1-I DELUXE mini-ITX / AMD E-450 / HD 6320 – 150€
• RAM; A-Data 8GB (2x4096MB) 1600MHz 1.5V, Game Series – 38€
• Music storage; Intel SSD 320, 300GB (270€) , 160GB (140€) , 160GB (140€)
• OS storage; Intel SSD 320 80GB (79€)
• 9 * Deltaco SATA cable; Serial-ATA 6Gb/s 0.3m – 7€
• Power cord; Linn – 20€
• OS; Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit) (OEM DVD) – 85€
• Mediaserver; Asset UPnP/Premium – 20€
• No antivirus or other SW installed, OS not upgraded

In total 1250€ with app. 600GB storage capacity.
Best invested 1.2k in many years!!!
A total revelation in music reproduction.

The NAS is managed using a wireless keyboard/inbuilt mouse and a small LCD-TV (hdmi to NAS) as monitor.
(normally disconnected)
The DS network has a standalone architecture and NOT connected to the Net or any other system/components.

I use Kinsky on either iPhone, iPad or PC to define playlists, then control the DS using the standard Linn remote.

David Neel · Post by **David Neel** » 2013-02-03 17:27

• Case; Fractal Design Node 304
• PSU; Seasonic platinum X-460FL 460W
• Motherboard; Asus E45M1-I DELUXE mini-ITX / AMD E-450 / HD 6320
• RAM; A-Data 8GB (2x4096MB) 1600MHz 1.5V, Game Series
• Music storage; Intel SSD 320, 300GB
• OS storage; Intel SSD 320 120GB
• 2 * SATA cable included with motherboard; Serial-ATA 6Gb/s 0.3m
• Power cord; Linn
• OS; Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit) (OEM DVD), updated
• Mediaserver; Asset UPnP/Premium
• Anti-virus; Microsoft Security Essentials (now replaced with AVG free)
• Switch; Netgear GS105
• LAN cable; Belkin Cat 6 unshielded
• DS; ADS/1 - 4.10.2

I will try to reconfigure the network so that there is no internet access - I think I can do this by adding the wireless antenna to the LSNAS, then removing the cable between the GS105 switch and the main router. That will mean I can remove MSE.

jiddu_k · Post by **jiddu_k** » 2013-02-03 22:39

• Case; Fractal Design Node 304
• PSU; Seasonic Platinum X-460FL 460W
• Motherboard; Asus E45M1-I DELUXE Mini-ITX / AMD E-450 / HD 6320
• RAM; A-Data 8GB (2x4096MB) 1600MHz 1.5V, Game Series
• Music storage; Intel SSD 320, 120GB
• OS storage; Samsung 840 SSD 120GB
• SATA cable; unknown 0.3m
• Power cord; Lejonklou Power One
• OS; Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit) (OEM DVD), updated
• Mediaserver; Asset UPnP/Premium
• Software; AVG Anti-virus
• LAN cable; Microconnect
• Switch; Netgear GS108T (from 2009)

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2013-02-04 00:24

Just a thought, and difficult to compare unless those involved are using a torque screwdriver, but I wonder how tightly everyone is screwing the motherboard to the case? I know from demonstration that this can make a surprising difference in musicality when applied to the circuit boards in Linn electronics...

k_numigl · Post by **k_numigl** » 2013-02-04 05:28

Music Lover wrote: • Case; Fractal Design Array R2 – 135€
• PSU; Seasonic platinum X-460FL 460W – 125€
• Motherboard; Asus E45M1-I DELUXE mini-ITX / AMD E-450 / HD 6320 – 150€

Do I understand correctly that the mainboard is oriented vertically in your system? Have you ever checked whether it makes a difference if it is oriented vertically or horizontally (as Linnofil suggests)?

jiddu_k · Post by **jiddu_k** » 2013-02-04 06:24

tokenbrit wrote:Just a thought, and difficult to compare unless those involved are using a torque screwdriver, but I wonder how tightly everyone is screwing the motherboard to the case? I know from demonstration that this can make a surprising difference in musicality when applied to the circuit boards in Linn electronics...

I started with these settings using a wera torque:

0.6 Nm for motherboard, ssd, harddrive mounting brackets
0.8 Nm for psu

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-02-04 08:52

k_numigl wrote:
Music Lover wrote: • Case; Fractal Design Array R2 – 135€
• PSU; Seasonic platinum X-460FL 460W – 125€
• Motherboard; Asus E45M1-I DELUXE mini-ITX / AMD E-450 / HD 6320 – 150€
Do I understand correctly that the mainboard is oriented vertically in your system? Have you ever checked whether it makes a difference if it is oriented vertically or horizontally (as Linnofil suggests)?

No, its oriented horizontally at the bottom of the R2 case, as the R2 design
dictates. Is it anything in my post that indicate the opposite, please let me know and I review the wording.

jiddu_k · Post by **jiddu_k** » 2013-02-04 22:12

k_numigl wrote:Do you know which HDD is in the Freecom case?

Hitachi Travelstar 4K120 80 GB HTS421280H9AT00 - not sure if I can find out which controller is used.

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2013-02-04 23:33

Linnofil wrote:I actually have a Samsung 840 (not Pro) 500 GB on the way home that I will try and test soon. (It's a loaner from a friend on the Melodik forum.)

Linnofil wrote:I will soon try the 500 GB 840. I will report my results in this thread. The less I post here, the more time I have for testing stuff in the NAS.

I have now tested this 500GB Samsung 840 drive in my NAS and it is no good at all. It's a lot worse than the Samsung 830. The Samsung 830 is about as good as a Seagate ES.2 on the outer tracks (first 25%) so it's pretty good for a modern compressing SSD. The 840 Pro has been indirectly tested against the 830 and they are pretty much equal. (830 compared to Intel 320, 840 Pro then tested a few days later against the same Inte 320 drive and was judged to be about the same in performance as the 830.) A direct comparison 830/840P would be interesting, but since they are far from the Intel 320 and so close to ES.2 HDD I don't find them very interesting, other than as OS/SW drives.

Considering the difference between 830 and 840 I would not recommend the 840 as OS/SW drive. Performance is worse (for OS/SW) and the space left over after OS/SW is not in any way usable for FLAC storage. Considering the 8mb bug that some may be afraid of in the 320 drives I will change the spec to 840 Pro as the recommended OS drive.

I don't know if the Samsung 840 is better or worse than the Sandforce drives. I would guess that the 840 is slightly better. But they are both crap for music, so don't bother with any of them.

Linnofil · Post by **Linnofil** » 2013-02-04 23:35

Nicolav wrote:
Linnofil wrote:
Nicolav wrote:I hate to think what might come out of putting a Intel 320 instead of ES.2.
Don't hate, love it instead! ;-) The better your NAS is, the bigger the difference between a ES.2 and a 320 SSD. So you can safely expect a considerable improvement.
Sorry, hate is the wrong term (google translate is not always reliable).
I meant to say: I dare not think what might come out of putting a Intel 320 instead of ES.2. :D As already with the ES .2 the results are excellent.

There was nothing wrong with the words you where using (not that I know of anyway, I'm Swedish! :-) ) I was just trying to make a fun twist of what you said, it was meant as a joke. Sorry if it came out as a remark on your language.

Nicolav wrote:Ok, I will take an Intel 320 first. Second thing to try is your Deltaco sata cables, now I'm using those supplied with the Asus motherboard: maybe be good or not, who knows? I have yet to test the right direction.
5 years of burn in? I hope not, maybe it's simply good!

I will order cables soon, perhaps today. I have been very busy and have not even been able to reply (in the time I would like) to posts here and PM's. The cables supplied with my mATX MB and the Mini-ITX MB was OK. They where in the upper half of all the cables I have tried. But obviously not as good as the Deltaco cables. More on the Deltaco cables later.