Hi - I've read various bits of info about getting the best out of Chakra amps (specifically x100 & x200 series) and wanted to try and get as many pieces of info in one place.
I have 2 4200 amps wih Aktiv cards driving some Linn 212 speakers. It's been a long journey trying to get the best sound but I think I'm finally getting there! Here's some of my findings (mostly got from these forums it has to be said) and I'm willing to try other suggestions -
Aktiv card positions
I've tried various combinations but finally asked my retailer who asked Linn. I got a reply from an unnamed source at Linn who says these were personal recommendations based on past experimentation (input is to channel 1):
Channel 1: Tweeter
Channel 2: Bass
Channel 3: Mid
Channel 4: Super Tweeter
or
Channel 1: Tweeter
Channel 2: Mid
Channel 3: Bass
Channel 4: Super Tweeter
The reason for these layouts is to balance the load between the two amp 'halves'. I'm using the second option as it seems to me to be the most balanced.
Note this is one amp per speaker. This seems to generally be felt to be the best layout. I have tried splitting across amps and it sounded pretty good to me to be honest, but not necessarily better.
Interconnects
I'm using the internal interconnects between channels 1/2 & 3/4. I gather it's slightly advantageous to use external ones (e.g Linn silvers) but I haven't got that sort of money! I also understand the optimum number of twists on the internal cables is 7.5 arrived at by tune-dem by Fredrik.
Other internal cabling options
I don't have a link to the original article but I understand there was an issue with hum when not playing music which could possibly be noticeable with low-volume music too. The recommendation is to disconnect the cable that ties the two amp 'halves' together which senses standby mode. With an Aktiv setup the interconnects carry this signal anyway so it makes no difference. Apologies for not having the link to this, but I couldn't perceive a sound difference myself anyway.
Circuit board torque
I'd like more info on this! I didn't over-tighten the Aktiv cards. Also can the other boards benefit from re-torquing?
Power
Will different cables make a difference? I'm using the ones (Tongyuan I think) that came with the amps. Anyone using power conditions/filtering? I'm just using cheap multi-way power blocks.
Interconnects
I'm using 1.2m Linn silvers between channels 2 & 3 which my retailer cut in half some years ago and used proper Linn plugs on the new ends. The Linn recommendation is specifically to connect channels 2 & 3 - but I'm not sure if they've figured you can connect in other ways - for instance channel 1 & channel 3? I find it sounds 'different' doing this - not necessarily better but somehow a little odd.
Gain controls
I'm personally allergic to altering gain controls (maybe it's a Linn thing) but I've found improvements to be made - though these are very dependent on speaker position/type & room size/shape. With my 212s in a small room (only about 3m x 3.5m) on wall Brakits (and resting on isolating mats on the shelves too for extra firmness) I've found these are best with the bass on 4 and everything else on 3. The 212s are a tiny bit 'bass light' anyway to me. I have noticed a difference if you alter all the gains but keep them the same relative to each other - for instance setting everything to position 0 (e.g -3dB) and the bass to position 1 doesn't sound so good to me! I prefer them based around the 3 (0 dB) setting as Linn recommend then make minor adjustments around that position.
Speaker cables
After 3 attempts to get these right, I'm using Linn K400 (3 m lengths) with Deltron 550 plugs soldered with a gas soldering iron using 60/40 tin/lead solder (recommendations got from the forums here) and I'm finally happy though I do feel speaker cables seem to be more critical than they should be, and particularly good solder joints so any possible improvements could be welcome.
Tuning Linn Chakra Amps
Moderator: Staff
Re: Tuning Linn Chakra Amps
Hi ocoro02 and welcome here!
I know there is a number of people on the forum with experience of the things you ask, let's see if they chime in after me or if they're all on vacation.
Aktiv card positions
In my experience, balancing the load on the two halves of the board doesn't make much sense. It sounds like a technical answer rather than one based on practical experience, similar to the suggested diagonal connection on single wired passive speakers, found in Linn's speaker manuals, which doesn't sound very good.
In the signal perspective, it makes most sense to let it go first to super treble, then to treble, mid and bass. I suggest you try that order, from 1 to 4. The internal connections will take the signal from 1 to 2 and from 3 to 4, so you'll use your cut down Silver between 2 and 3, just like today. Did you check the direction of the internal cables? That has to be done by ear, as they have no text or marking.
Other internal cabling options
Apart from removing the link between the two boards that you mention (small difference, but easily heard when the system performs at its best), you also have the direction of the cables to and from the input boards. These have to be evaluated by ear and you need to shut down the amp before you disconnect and reverse the direction of them.
In addition to this, you have the speaker output wires. These should all be oriented in the same direction, identified by the direction of the text on the wires. Whether all wires should have their text from board to output connectors, or the other way around, depends on the brand of the wires. I've taken notes on all the versions I've come across, but it's not too difficult to evaluate the "total direction" by ear.
The speaker output wires should also run parallel to one another in pairs, but shouldn't be twisted. The optimal solution is to fit a thin plastic tube that can take two wires and put each pair into a piece of that tube.
Circuit board torque
If you have a torque tool, you can tighten all the circuit boards to around 0.4 Nm, including the aktiv cards.
Power
Keep the Tongyuans and avoid any mains filter!
Gain controls
I find that when installing systems, the gain controls have too large steps to be useful. After many attempts, I now always leave them at the standard position. I agree with you it sounds worse increasing or decreasing all of them, they definitely have a best sounding setting.
Speaker cables
K400 is great but Linn Knekt are better than Deltron 550's. The soldering job also makes a clear difference, so it can be worthwhile optimising them at some point in the future. For example if you decide you need a different length.
I've probably forgotten a number of details, but let's keep the discussion going. Please report if you make any progress!
I know there is a number of people on the forum with experience of the things you ask, let's see if they chime in after me or if they're all on vacation.
Aktiv card positions
In my experience, balancing the load on the two halves of the board doesn't make much sense. It sounds like a technical answer rather than one based on practical experience, similar to the suggested diagonal connection on single wired passive speakers, found in Linn's speaker manuals, which doesn't sound very good.
In the signal perspective, it makes most sense to let it go first to super treble, then to treble, mid and bass. I suggest you try that order, from 1 to 4. The internal connections will take the signal from 1 to 2 and from 3 to 4, so you'll use your cut down Silver between 2 and 3, just like today. Did you check the direction of the internal cables? That has to be done by ear, as they have no text or marking.
Other internal cabling options
Apart from removing the link between the two boards that you mention (small difference, but easily heard when the system performs at its best), you also have the direction of the cables to and from the input boards. These have to be evaluated by ear and you need to shut down the amp before you disconnect and reverse the direction of them.
In addition to this, you have the speaker output wires. These should all be oriented in the same direction, identified by the direction of the text on the wires. Whether all wires should have their text from board to output connectors, or the other way around, depends on the brand of the wires. I've taken notes on all the versions I've come across, but it's not too difficult to evaluate the "total direction" by ear.
The speaker output wires should also run parallel to one another in pairs, but shouldn't be twisted. The optimal solution is to fit a thin plastic tube that can take two wires and put each pair into a piece of that tube.
Circuit board torque
If you have a torque tool, you can tighten all the circuit boards to around 0.4 Nm, including the aktiv cards.
Power
Keep the Tongyuans and avoid any mains filter!
Gain controls
I find that when installing systems, the gain controls have too large steps to be useful. After many attempts, I now always leave them at the standard position. I agree with you it sounds worse increasing or decreasing all of them, they definitely have a best sounding setting.
Speaker cables
K400 is great but Linn Knekt are better than Deltron 550's. The soldering job also makes a clear difference, so it can be worthwhile optimising them at some point in the future. For example if you decide you need a different length.
I've probably forgotten a number of details, but let's keep the discussion going. Please report if you make any progress!
Ah - all excellent information, thank you! I'll give some of these a try when I get the chance.
I have played with the Aktiv card positions and I have to admit your suggestion was the first I tried. I'll go back to it and listen again...
Any opinion on connection channels 1 to 3 instead of 2 to 3? It sounds like a winner as it's losing a 'hop' within the amp but I don't know if there's any other consequences. As I said, I think it sounded worse which surprised me.
I have played with the Aktiv card positions and I have to admit your suggestion was the first I tried. I'll go back to it and listen again...
Any opinion on connection channels 1 to 3 instead of 2 to 3? It sounds like a winner as it's losing a 'hop' within the amp but I don't know if there's any other consequences. As I said, I think it sounded worse which surprised me.
When connecting channel 1 to 3 (and 2 to 3 internally), you're changing from a daisy chain to a parallel connection of the signal. And daisy chain sounds better. This is something we found out back in the 90's when Kairn was the preamp of choice. It had 3 line outputs, so you could (for example) use one output for each Klout in an aktiv Keltik or Kaber system.
I'm not sure who was the first to discover this, but suddenly a rumour spread among Linn retailers that it sounded better when daisy chaining the signal; Kairn to one Klout, to the second Klout, to the third. Naturally we tried all variations of it and found that it was best to first go to treble, then mid and then bass. And when adding a subwoofer to a stereo system, the signal should preferably be taken from the bass amp line output, not from any of the free outputs on the Kairn.
So I'm not surprised you found it sounded worse.
I'm not sure who was the first to discover this, but suddenly a rumour spread among Linn retailers that it sounded better when daisy chaining the signal; Kairn to one Klout, to the second Klout, to the third. Naturally we tried all variations of it and found that it was best to first go to treble, then mid and then bass. And when adding a subwoofer to a stereo system, the signal should preferably be taken from the bass amp line output, not from any of the free outputs on the Kairn.
So I'm not surprised you found it sounded worse.
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Music Lover
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Tweak the amp according to Fredriks suggestions, then run the amp in passive mode - comparing all channels with each other one by one.
Use the best channel for ST, second best for T etc, you get the idea...
I have been an active fan for 20 Linn years but after looking inside a Klimax speaker and fettling with C4200 amps (WHAT A MESS with numerous cables&sockets, Linn not paying any attention to cable direction, cable and socket quality, separation between components etc) I now use Solos in a passive setup. (very few internal cables, mostly soldered)
I think it's better so use a simple setup so you can use the available time tweaking that quite well, instead of having a complex system badly tuned.
And...the money saved on multiple amps/active X-overs can be put there it REALLY makes a difference - on source, racks and DS network components.
Besides, my super tweaked active C4200/212/345 sub setup (by Lejonklou), was clearly beaten when I installed Komris passive after spending just 5min on the installation. (Same C4200 used)
Quite a chock actually.
BUT, if you have plenty of time and dedication, an active setup can be fantastic!!!
Use the best channel for ST, second best for T etc, you get the idea...
I have been an active fan for 20 Linn years but after looking inside a Klimax speaker and fettling with C4200 amps (WHAT A MESS with numerous cables&sockets, Linn not paying any attention to cable direction, cable and socket quality, separation between components etc) I now use Solos in a passive setup. (very few internal cables, mostly soldered)
I think it's better so use a simple setup so you can use the available time tweaking that quite well, instead of having a complex system badly tuned.
And...the money saved on multiple amps/active X-overs can be put there it REALLY makes a difference - on source, racks and DS network components.
Besides, my super tweaked active C4200/212/345 sub setup (by Lejonklou), was clearly beaten when I installed Komris passive after spending just 5min on the installation. (Same C4200 used)
Quite a chock actually.
BUT, if you have plenty of time and dedication, an active setup can be fantastic!!!
It's all about musical understanding!
There is also the torque setting on each speaker drive unit. This is worthwhile, even on lesser speakers.
I recently purchased new speaker cables from Fredrik (K400 cut in half). It was excellent value for money. I previously had K600 without Linn Knekt banana connectors, and obviously not optimally soldered. The new cables are more tuneful and I'm enjoying music a little more. There is also a more homogenous sound and it's less harsh and surprisingly more dynamic, with sounds coming and going much quicker. He also makes a very professional job of terminating the ends - very smart.
I think it's great you're taking your time to be so thorough with this. 4200/212 is supposed to be a great combination, once well setup. I know 'Sondek', on the Linn forum, has been happy with it since he and some friends spent a weekend on setup and tuning driver torques and everything else. I also think, if I was in your position, and having experienced Fredrik's work, that I'd ship the K400 to Sweden for him to re-terminate with Linn plugs and optimal soldering.
I recently purchased new speaker cables from Fredrik (K400 cut in half). It was excellent value for money. I previously had K600 without Linn Knekt banana connectors, and obviously not optimally soldered. The new cables are more tuneful and I'm enjoying music a little more. There is also a more homogenous sound and it's less harsh and surprisingly more dynamic, with sounds coming and going much quicker. He also makes a very professional job of terminating the ends - very smart.
I think it's great you're taking your time to be so thorough with this. 4200/212 is supposed to be a great combination, once well setup. I know 'Sondek', on the Linn forum, has been happy with it since he and some friends spent a weekend on setup and tuning driver torques and everything else. I also think, if I was in your position, and having experienced Fredrik's work, that I'd ship the K400 to Sweden for him to re-terminate with Linn plugs and optimal soldering.
I've been considering that ... I have tracked down some Knekts and am getting them soon. I've spent quite a bit of time on speaker cables and am currently using Deltron 550s which are a big improvement on what I had before but I think they could be better. I'm also conscious of sound deteriation when I put the equipment back on the shelf (it's close to a wall) and the cables getting bent slight between plug and wall - I'm convinced I can hear a difference which is really quite irritiating when it sounds great in 'testing' position!Charlie1 wrote: I also think, if I was in your position, and having experienced Fredrik's work, that I'd ship the K400 to Sweden for him to re-terminate with Linn plugs and optimal soldering.
I'm not a bad soldererer - I don't work in the electronics trade but I've done plenty of it in my time and know a bit of the science/engineering behind it so I'm reasonably confident of my efforts - though I expect a pro could do a lot better job. Getting someone who really knows what they're doing will be the next iteration of upgrade I expect!
As for torquing the speaker drivers - wow, don't I know it. It makes a huge difference!
Music Lover - would you suggest doing this on a per-amplifier basis or is this going a bit far? It'd be a lot easier of course if the 'best' boards are in the same position in each of the amps, but I guess the amps could differ... I also don't have the link strips for my 212s which makes things a little tricky. I have to fiddle with copper wire to make them passive which is less than ideal.Music Lover wrote:Tweak the amp according to Fredriks suggestions, then run the amp in passive mode - comparing all channels with each other one by one.
Use the best channel for ST, second best for T etc, you get the idea...
It's interesting how the board torques differed between the two amps as well. One was so tight I could barely undo the screws/risers, the other so loose that I could undo them by hand. I guess if you work on enough of these amps, you get to put the assembler's name to the style of construction!
Last edited by ocoro02 on 2011-08-16 18:11, edited 1 time in total.
Well, I've done some fiddling over the last few days. The speaker output cable direction made a nice change. I found in all cases I had them the wrong way round - text heading away from the speakers worked best.
The interconnects & in particular the cables from the input/output boards I found more difficult. I ended up playing mono recordings passive into one speaker to try and figure the i/o cables!
Aktiv card position - I ended up back where I started: ch1 tweeter, ch2 mid, ch3 bass, ch4 super tweeter. It just sounds more musical to me! Ever since I got the 4200s & 212s I've found them bright (both components, possibly the 4200s worse) and this configuration just takes the edge off for me. I shall get some nicely-terminated speaker cables from Fredrik soon so maybe this'll make all the difference?
I agree with Music Lover - the 4200s are a bit of a mess inside. They look more like PCs!
The interconnects & in particular the cables from the input/output boards I found more difficult. I ended up playing mono recordings passive into one speaker to try and figure the i/o cables!
Aktiv card position - I ended up back where I started: ch1 tweeter, ch2 mid, ch3 bass, ch4 super tweeter. It just sounds more musical to me! Ever since I got the 4200s & 212s I've found them bright (both components, possibly the 4200s worse) and this configuration just takes the edge off for me. I shall get some nicely-terminated speaker cables from Fredrik soon so maybe this'll make all the difference?
I agree with Music Lover - the 4200s are a bit of a mess inside. They look more like PCs!
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Ozzzy189
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I just tightened up my driver's torque screws as i was surprised that there was plenty of turn left. Have I buggered up anything? Damn that pesky russ andrews bloke for telling people to go and tighten all their drivers.
ADS3/SagMono/Tundra 2.2- . Totem Tribe Tower.
Lejonklou demos available in the N of England.
Lejonklou demos available in the N of England.
Unless you tightened them to the point where materials start deforming, you didn't bugger up anything! The screws are usually quite loose a couple of months after having bought a new pair of loudspeakers. Far below the optimal torque.Ozzzy189 wrote:I just tightened up my driver's torque screws as i was surprised that there was plenty of turn left. Have I buggered up anything?
For those who don't have a torque tool, I think tightening drive units should be done with a screwdriver type of tool. The kind you hold in your hand and turn by twisting your forearm. Unless you're really strong, it becomes difficult to damage anything. Long allen keys are the most dangerous.