LP12 Radikal problem

[beck]

Apparently my Urika does touch the Radikal motor. Just waiting to find out if shortening the screw is enough or whether wood strips are necessary. It seems the Urika foot orientation has changed through the production lifetime. I obviously bought mine before the change, about 2-3 years ago.

Bad news Charlie1. Now you have to make all your clips again in the “Playground” tread. Older clips are not valid! :-)

Depends on how you see it.

Considering how much you paid for this precision instrument, it's scandalous that your LP12 is affected. And the roughly 50% problem rate that I've encountered so far (2 out of 4, a fifth is coming in today so we'll see which state is in majority) is far, far from the various claims of it being "very rare".

Considering how happy you'll be when it's fixed, it's great news that your LP12 is affected!

I agree!!!!

[Charlie1]

Considering how happy you'll be when it's fixed, it's great news that your LP12 is affected!

I need a new Cirkus bearing too so, all in all, I'm much less worried that the switch from Akiva to Krystal will be a disappointment.

Bad news Charlie1. Now you have to make all your clips again in the “Playground” tread. Older clips are not valid! :-)

LOL!

[lejonklou]

Current prevalence of this problem: 3 out of 5 LP12's investigated.

I have a growing suspicion that those who label this problem as "rare" either don't understand it or don't know how to check it.

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30×300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem.

[Matteo]

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30×300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem.

Where can I find this strip of thin paper?

M.

[lejonklou]

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30×300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem.

Where can I find this strip of thin paper?

M.

In your drawer? In your printer?

Plain white paper.

[tokenbrit]

Just don't print "Linn" on it - it will just cost extra, but won't sound any better ;)

[Matteo]

Just don't print "Linn" on it - it will just cost extra, but won't sound any better ;)

or "Naim"

[Matteo]

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30×300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem.

Where can I find this strip of thin paper?

M.

In your drawer? In your printer?

Plain white paper.

OK

[ThomasOK]

Current prevalence of this problem: 3 out of 5 LP12's investigated.

I have a growing suspicion that those who label this problem as "rare" either don't understand it or don't know how to check it.

I find the most reliable way is to check with a 30×300 mm strip of thin paper. If it gets stuck when the LP12 is standing on its feet, you have the problem.

I'm going to have to agree with Fredrik here that the problem is likely more prevalent than most realized, including myself. I don't have any numbers at this point to quantify it but I do have an interesting story.

It was a little bit slow at the store today and I was fresh out of LP12s to work on. Then I remembered that I wanted to look at the store Klimax LP12 as I hadn't been thrilled with its perfromance for a while. So I popped it into the jig, unfastened the Urika, put the paper strip on top of the foot under the Radikal motor and screwed that corner and a few other screws back in, then took it out of the jig and set it on the counter. You guessed it, the paper didn't want to budge. So out to the hardware store for some more wood strips (I stocked up a bit this time) and I performed the mod on the LP12. Before I fastened it back on I checked the suspension but all was OK there. Torqued the set screw on the arm pillar and the ground connection to the Urika and fastened it all together. Wow! The musical improvement is anything but subtle. Even on the first track I played, which didn't have much bass, there was obviously improved flow and texture, easily more tuneful. Then playing some tracks with a fair bit going on in the bass the bass power, timing and resolution was in a completely different league. So this is something that anyone with a Radikal and Urika or Trampolin should investigate.

To give you an idea of how much this hampers the sound I should mention that Linn held an event here a little over a month ago with a Linn Lounge preceded by a session on the history ow the LP12 with some demonstrations. In the demos the Klimax LP12 was compared with a Majik LP12 through a Uphorik. While the audience mostly heard the improvement in clarity of the Klimax LP12 there was actually one person who preferred the Majik! All of us here noticed that the Klimax LP12 was definitely not clobbering the Majik like it should have and I thought there was something nice to the flow if the Majik, although I didn't feel it was as good as the Klimax version. I haven't run that same comparison as I just now finished the mod and did a quick listen. But I believe that the comparison would now leave no doubt as to the substantial musical upgrade that the Klimax LP12 should and does normally provide.

While I recommend the paper strip test to confirm this problem or the lack of it, I also noticed that tapping the bottom of the Urika near the feet normally gives a bit of a drum sound, damped to be sure but still with a little resonance to it. Tapping by the foot under the motor before the mod gave a completely dead sound. So you could try this first and see what you get.

By the way, the plinth was a stock Linn walnut with a height of 65mm, which seems to be the standard height for a Linn plinth. So, again, it is quite likely this is a problem for a significant proportion of Radikal LP12s. I thank Fredrik for bringing this to light. It looks like I'm going to have to be investigating a lot of customer LP12s.

[Charlie1]

I wonder if this has also played a part in the Urika 1 vs 2 demonstrations too. If the Urika 2 has the foot rotated to miss the motor and someone compares to a Urika like mine, then this is not a fair comparison. Not that I like the way these U1 vs U2 dems are commonly conducted anyway - i.e. no analogue pre with the U1, but that's another dem issue.

[beck]

If it was a car the model would have been called in for service. Linn should do something.

[Matteo]

I did the strip of paper test and I have not the problem.

I remeasured my plinth (balck ash, late 2014): 6.88 cm

M.

[Charlie1]

Good news.

Your plinths seems a couple of mm higher than most too, so maybe that's helping.

[matthias]

If it was a car the model would have been called in for service. Linn should do something.

+1
Probably the Lingo4 will outperform the Radikal with this issue.

Matt

[Matteo]

According to the Linn forum, it seems that the Lingo 4 has other problems:

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=39670

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=39578

M.

[matthias]

According to the Linn forum, it seems that the Lingo 4 has other problems:

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=39670

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=39578

Yes, I have seen the threads on the LF, it appears to me as a certain lack of professionalism by Linn in both the case of Radikal and Lingo4.

Matt

[Tendaberry]

According to the Linn forum, it seems that the Lingo 4 has other problems:

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=39670

https://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=39578

M.

Well, one of the problems may have appeared, because the customer installed the Lingo 4 himself. And the other disappeared by itself. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet...

[Charlie1]

OK, so my Urika does have the new 12, 3, 6, 9 o'clock positions, which makes sense as it's only 2-3 years old.

Turns out the motor was touching the Urika foot itself, not the screw. It's been fitted with additional felt strips to increase the height. I guess this may compact over time but the only ideal solution (to my mind) is one that doesn't require additional felt or wooden strips.

This is a brand new Oak plinth btw.

I suspect the official line will be that it doesn't impact the actual suspension and is not an issue. No doubt the concern will be that customers may expect it to be rectified free of charge.

I guess something will change sooner or later to fix it.

Looks like Woodsong are already making higher plinths:
http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/stop- ... al-problem

[tokenbrit]

I love that the LInnternet is revealing and resolving this issue. I am less than impressed that it appears Linn are not acknowledging or addressing the problems that exist in the field; just (maybe?) quietly tweaking components to avoid too many 'rekurrences'. A trusting customer of Linn, & an unsuspecting Linn dealer, might well have $30k of underperforming product despite said product being built from premium priced, genuine Linn top-of-the-range components that perform sub-optimally when put together... At this price point it should not be hit or miss as to whether your Radikal-Urika LP12 performs as intended or is severely compromised by tolerance issues - the responsibility must sit with the manufacturer of said components. To fail to own up to the problem, or to resolve completely for those that have invested in Linn's 'finest', seriously undermines confidence in the brand & the current ethos of the company. Just Listen to a company standing behind their product?

[Charlie1]

I too am very disappointed. I should be looking forward to getting my deck back but feel deflated.

I imagine some people at Linn feel the same, but I don't think the business will own up to this one. The cost would be too much. Of the three proposed permanent fixes I've read of, none of them are quick and cheap to implement. And I assume Linn would also have to pay the dealers for their time too. I think Linn 'should' pay to resolve it but I don't think they will.

[tokenbrit]

I too am very disappointed. I should be looking forward to getting my deck back but feel deflated...

Hopefully you will be delighted when you get your LP12 back, and able to put aside your disappointment - enjoy the music.

[ThomasOK]

A couple of clips for you all to listen to. Let me know what you think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ip4hcnfljopja ... 0.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pa267yobosv34 ... 1.MP4?dl=0

[beck]

I too am very disappointed. I should be looking forward to getting my deck back but feel deflated.

I kind of know that feeling. That is not the way you should feel when getting a top Sondek back home but there is not much one can do about it. In the end the music will win I am sure.

A couple of clips for you all to listen to. Let me know what you think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ip4hcnfljopja ... 0.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pa267yobosv34 ... 1.MP4?dl=0

Are you sure that this is the right place to post this comparison? I know what I want to say about the clips but do think that they belong somewhere else.

[Charlie1]

Hopefully you will be delighted when you get your LP12 back, and able to put aside your disappointment - enjoy the music.

Thanks tokenbrit - I do appreciate that. Signs are positive for the Krystal / new bearing. I don't think it was ever going to be entirely one-way when coming from an Akiva, even a worn one. I'm sure I will post in relevant section once the deck has had a chance to settle and Krystal wear in.

Thanks Beck too.

[Charlie1]

A couple of clips for you all to listen to. Let me know what you think.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ip4hcnfljopja ... 0.MP4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pa267yobosv34 ... 1.MP4?dl=0

I can only describe the first clip as a bit 'weird' (kind of psychedelic) compared to the second. The second just seems normal.