Majik CD or Unidisk? ->Tunedem discussion

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Majik CD or Unidisk? ->Tunedem discussion

Post by Nisseman »

Hi Lejonklou!
At the moment I´m enjoying a Karik/Numerik combo, but I am looking ahead to the moment the laser breaks down...

What would you say is the tunedem qualities comparing the new Majik CD with the Unidisks?

Or perhaps a used Ikemik? :?
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Post by Music Lover »

What Unidisk are you looking at?

As a previous owner of K/N and Ikemi...Ikemi is better but not as good as Majik CD, Unidisk 2.1 or 1.1

Not heard Unidisk SC with the latest SW so I pass on that...
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Post by lejonklou »

Hi and welcome, Nisseman! This is my ranking of the CD players, from worst to best:

Karik
Karik+Numerik
Ikemi
Unidisk SC
Majik CD
Unidisk 2.1
Unidisk 1.1

The Majik CD is the most difficult one to rank, though. The first one I heard was not quite as good as a Unidisk SC Tune Dem-wise. But it did sound more impressive sound-wise.

Then Linn released new software for the Majik and this seemed to improve them enough to pass the SC in performance. On the demonstrations I have held and visited since then, the performance has still varied a bit (possibly due to the direction of internal cables): From sometimes rather close to the SC to far better than it on another occasion.

The Unidisk 2.1 and 1.1 are simply better. They do not have the same kind of impressive character, but rather sound correct. And in terms of Tune Dem they are both superior.
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Post by Nisseman »

Hi & thanx four your insight!

What changes do you know was made to the Ikemi (the linn-list only mentions two)?
I´m considering which way to upgrade, and Ikemi would be more cost-effective, and I am not so sure about the gap to the Majik...

Do you make modifications (modifikations ) to the Ikemi?
What are the benefits?

Excuse the introvert questions... :roll:
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Post by Pediatrik »

Hi Nisseman!

I made the change from Karik/Numerik to Ikemi a few years ago, with no regrets. I have since then made the comparison between Ikemi and Majik CD (Old SW) twice and must say that I wasn't overly convinced. The Majik CD sounded different but not that much better to motivate an investment of approx 1600 EUR. When I'm going to uppgrade my cd-player I will definetly want a bigger change, wich means at least Uni 2.1.

Buying a second hand Ikemi nowadays definetly gives high value for little money (approx 1200-1500 EUR)! A new Majik CD approx 3200 EUR. I'm not sure if there were any more major changes to the Ikemi than the ones listed on Daniels webbpage. Fredrik used to sell an internal cable, but no more I think.

The best way to find out which way to choose is of course to bring your K/N-combo to the nearest dealer and make the comparison yourself! Good luck!
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Post by mazganistan »

lejonklou wrote: The Majik CD is the most difficult one to rank, though. The first one I heard was not quite as good as a Unidisk SC Tune Dem-wise. But it did sound more impressive sound-wise.
Hi Lejonklou! Why would the "impressive sound-wise" confuse you regarding which player is the best? I thought that tune-dem rulez!?!

/mazganistan
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Post by lejonklou »

Nisseman, there were several small changes to the Ikemi over the years and in general the rule is "the later, the better". One exception from this is that in very early Ikemi's, the Slimline power supplies that were marked "CD12" were actually a bit better than the ones in later Ikemis. The rest of the electronics was however improved so overall it is still "the later, the better".

So, to create an "optimal Ikemi", you should buy 2 of them - one very early and one very late - and then take the Slimline power supply from the early one and put it into the late one and use that in your main system. :)

It is true that I no longer make any internal cables for these products, but the latest one from Linn (used only in the very latest of the Ikemis that were produced) is actually very good and well worth the cost as an upgrade. Contact me if you want one and/or need help fitting it.

Pediatrik, I agree that with todays second hand prices, the Ikemi is fantastic value for money. It is great sounding, reliable, looks good (in my opinion) and has a wonderful transport/drawer too.

mazganistan, I didn't say I was confused. I merely tried to describe what I heard. On that very first demonstration that I mentioned, the Majik CD was compared against a Unidisk SC and about half of the audience thought the Majik was better. I belonged to the group that thought the SC was better (it was easier to follow the melody with it), but I admit that the Majik had a more powerful sound.

I hope that made sense. If not, please explain what you mean and I'll do my best to answer.
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Post by flojo »

In the ranking I miss the Genki. Where would you place it?
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Post by bonzo »

genki is last place, only ahead of mimik.
lp12, Keel, K Radikal, Urika, EkosSe/1 Kandid KK1/D, JBL 708p
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Post by lejonklou »

It was a while since I compared a Genki to a Karik, but the last time I did, I thought the Genki was slightly better. It was a bit crude sounding, but had the fundamentals (tune dem) more under control.

It might depend on the age and condition of both units, but I suspect the complete list (adding Mimik and Genki) will look like this (IMHO):

Mimik
Karik
Genki
Karik+Numerik
Ikemi
Unidisk SC
Majik CD
Unidisk 2.1
Unidisk 1.1
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Post by Music Lover »

lejonklou wrote: the complete list
CD12 :wink:

And while at it, we can also add Classik music/movie used as CD spinners only.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Just a few different thoughts on the CD player list. First, the CD12 is still better than the UniDisk 1.1 and hands down the best CD player I have ever heard. Second, in my own experience there would be some slight changes in the list. The only Karik vs. Genki comparison I did was with a Karik III and I felt that that Karik was more tuneful but I have heard other comments of the Genki being better. I suspect that it definitely depends on the age of the Karik. A Karik III and Numerik both with the slimline power supply comes close enough to the Ikemi that it is hard to justify paying a large amount for the upgrade.

My biggest question is in the middle of the grouping. In my listening I found the UniDisk SC close to the Ikemi and somewhat different but I feel the Ikemi is superior. I (and several others at the store) have done the comparison several times with at least two or three Ikemis and SCs and the Ikemi has always been the more tuneful. The even more controversial one is the Ikemi vs. Majik CD. The general opinion is that the Majik CD is more tuneful than the Ikemi. Unfortunately, the only one I've had a chance to hear is not as tuneful as the Ikemi I have at home. This is again the feeling of several who have heard the comparison. I have discussed this with Fredrik and he has assurred me that the units he has dealt with are indeed superior to the Ikemi so I have to assume that we have a substandard unit. I would, however, recommend that anyone looking at getting a Majik CD audition it and compare it to an Ikemi, if possible.

In answer to Music Lover's question I would put the the Classik Music above the Mimik but below the Genki, and the Classik Movie 05 above the Genki but below the UniDisk SC. The new Akurate disc player should be the same as the UniDisk 1.1. So this would be my list:

Mimik
Classik Music
Genki
Karik III
Karik+Numerik
Classik Movie 05
Unidisk SC
Ikemi
Majik CD (conditional)
Unidisk 2.1
Unidisk 1.1 or Akurate CD
Sondek CD12

This keeping in mind that I have not yet heard the Akurate CD nor have I compared the Classik Movie 05 to the Karik or Karik/Numerik.
lejonklou wrote:It was a while since I compared a Genki to a Karik, but the last time I did, I thought the Genki was slightly better. It was a bit crude sounding, but had the fundamentals (tune dem) more under control.

It might depend on the age and condition of both units, but I suspect the complete list (adding Mimik and Genki) will look like this (IMHO):

Mimik
Karik
Genki
Karik+Numerik
Ikemi
Unidisk SC
Majik CD
Unidisk 2.1
Unidisk 1.1
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Post by Pediatrik »

ThomasOK wrote:First, the CD12 is still better than the UniDisk 1.1 and hands down the best CD player I have ever heard.
Does this apply to all CD12:s, even early ones?! Unfortunately I have never made the comparison between CD12 and UniDisk 1.1 myself but it seems that the impressions overall are a bit different. How would an early CD12 (s/n<330 i.e. first engine, 20-bit DAC) compare to a late UniDisk 1.1 (latest SW)?

Regarding the Akurate CD it might even sound better than the 1.1, since there's no video board in the signal path. After the release of the Akurate CD it would really be interesting to demo it against an early CD12. If the difference is slight it would be a difficult choice. My heart would say CD12 since it is the holy grail of CD-players and a beautiful piece of machinery (in a LK-box!), but my brain would say Akurate CD since there probably will be future SW-upgrades to enhance the sound.

Well, before I get too carried away I probably should check my bankaccount... :roll:
ThomasOK wrote:The even more controversial one is the Ikemi vs. Majik CD. The general opinion is that the Majik CD is more tuneful than the Ikemi. Unfortunately, the only one I've had a chance to hear is not as tuneful as the Ikemi I have at home.
This is my experience as well! But the Majik CD:s I've had the opportunity to listen to are early ones and with the first SW. They might have improved since then!
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Post by Music Lover »

Pediatrik wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:]The even more controversial one is the Ikemi vs. Majik CD. The general opinion is that the Majik CD is more tuneful than the Ikemi. Unfortunately, the only one I've had a chance to hear is not as tuneful as the Ikemi I have at home.
This is my experience as well! But the Majik CD:s I've had the opportunity to listen to are early ones and with the first SW. They might have improved since then!
Some people have reported both Unidisk SC and Majik CD being improved using recent SW's.
I havn’t compared this myself.
I suggest anyone that consider ANY product that can be upgraded to be extra careful.
Some recent SW’s make them sounding less good! (note - we talk tune dem as always)

We also have a few other variables to consider.
- A new unit normally sound better than older, as Linn enhance the products over time.
- some individuals are better than others.

So for products that are rather close in performance it can be difficult to make a definitive rating list!
So best is to take your unit and compare with the one you intend to buy.
Then decide.
Trust your ears.
Tune dem will give you the answer.

Btw, his is why I recommend upgrading using BIG steps. Just to make sure the performance really getting substantially better.
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Post by Pediatrik »

Music Lover wrote: Btw, his is why I recommend upgrading using BIG steps. Just to make sure the performance really getting substantially better.
Exactly! That's why I won't replace my Ikemi with anything less than a Uni 2.1!
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Post by ThomasOK »

My comments on the CD12 apply to any I've heard from the earliest on. I have yet to hear one that wasn't more tuneful and musically natural than any UniDisk 1.1 regardless of software level.

In regards to the UniDisk SC and Majik CD comparisons these are based on both original software and the latest versions as these comparisons were done at various times. The latest with the Majik CD was with an older unit with latest software and optimized cable direction vs. my own Ikemi which is one of the last ones made.

It may indeed be possible that the Akurate CD could be a bit better than the UniDisk 1.1 but we were told that it would be the same. One thing to remember is that UniDisk units switch off unused circuitry in order to protect the purity of the music so not having the video circuitry might make little or no difference, although I don't know if the video circuitry is ever actually switched off. At this point we just have to wait and see but we shouldn't have to wait long as the Akurate CD is supposed to start shipping the middle of this month.

Finally, a CD12 replacement is being developed but we might not see it until next year, it is probably at least 6 months off. It may also play SACD stereo but is unlikely to handle DVDs. I expect it will set a new standard in CD reproduction as the original did and that it will probably sell for at least as much money.

I definitely agree with Music Lover that it is best when upgrading to take your own unit and compare it to the unit(s) you are considering.
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Post by sommerfee »

ThomasOK wrote: One thing to remember is that UniDisk units switch off unused circuitry in order to protect the purity of the music so not having the video circuitry might make little or no difference, although I don't know if the video circuitry is ever actually switched off.
No, it isn't switched off and there is no option for that.
Finally, a CD12 replacement is being developed but we might not see it until next year, it is probably at least 6 months off. It may also play SACD stereo but is unlikely to handle DVDs.
Since DVD-A can't be controlled without a picture (For example you can switch the audio layer, but you can't see what layer is actually playing!) and since DVD-A seems to be a dead horse anyway I would not drop a tear about that.

I'm interested how the Akurate CD will handle this. Some DVD-A don't even start without handling a video menu first!(But most of them seem to have an "auto start" feature.)
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Ikemi vs Majik thoughts ...

Post by Spitfire »

I have done many in-house auditions of the following players throughout the years - within a non-Linn system.

I divide the players in two catagories, depending on the transport.

The late Karil III, Ikemi, Uni1.1, CD12 and Akurate all use the Linn Transport while the early Kariks, Genki UniSC and Majik CD use OEM transports.

The reason I divide as such, is because the transport makes an audible difference, and subjectively that difference is what seperates the new Majik CD compared to the Ikemi.

The Majik is better defined, but the Ikemi has the advantage of the Linn transport, which adds more instrumental impact, improved pace and a slightly darker tonality. The differences were obvious with the Genki and Ikemi, and in my latest audition, just as obvious with the Akurate / Ikemi & Majik.

I hesitate doing a list, because it ignores certain pros & cons for each player - but here goes ... (last to best)

Evaluated with 16/44 or HDCD.

Unidisk SC, inferior to the Ikemi or Majik in terms of sound quality.
Genki & Karik III tied, different sound and each has a different set of values. I prefer the Karik.
Majik & Ikemi tied, different sound and each has a different set of values. I prefer the Ikemi.
Unidisk 1.1, excellent 16/44 and Hi-Res player, lacks HDCD and falls behind the CD12 with regular CD.
CD12, remains the best redbook player by a wide margin.

The Akurate player is still being auditioned, at this point I'm not exactly certain were it places, but it's certainly no CD12. Also, it trades HDCD processing for SACD, which depending on your digital inventory, could be considered an advantage or disadvantage.

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Thank you, Spitfire!

Post by Ceilidh »

Hello Spitfire,

Thank you for the post -- and welcome to the forum!!! (Great user-name, by the way. Are you referring to the car, or to the WWII fighter?)

Please do let us know what you decide about the Akurate, once you've had time to make a firm assessment. :D And if you ever get a chance to try out the new DS products, it'd be great to hear what you think of those. (And for that matter, it'd be interesting to hear what the rest of your "non-Linn" system consists of, and why/how you've decided to mix & match.)

Thanks very much again, and looking forward to your future posts!

-C

P.S. -- I also owe you thanks for reactivating this thread: it went dormant before I joined this forum, and I never noticed it before (and it answers questions I've been wondering about....)
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Post by Spitfire »

Hi Ceilidh,

Thanks for your kind words.

I have always had an interest in WWII fighters, and for some reason, the Spitfire in particular. Anyways, the Akurate is brand new, I'm letting it breakin before I make a decision.

I have owned a few Linn players over the years, although I have auditioned many different brands. Many good players out there these days, but the Linns remain my personal favorites. Have not heard DS, actually I'm not certain what DS stands for?

I currently own the Ikemi, and simply figured it was time to move on, to later models. However, this has been my most difficult upgrade attempt, because of a variety of reasons.

First and foremost, the Ikemi really sings in my system, not easily replaced. The Majik sounded truly excellent, better than I expected. However, it has that non-linn OEM transport tonality, easily heard compared to the Ikemi and Akurate (even in need of breakin). The last time I heard this difference was when I audition both the Genki and the Ikemi over a two week period years ago.

The Majik is superior to the Genki, and in some ways betters the Ikemi, but the tonal advantage of the Ikemi's linn transport hasn't been duplicated. This exchange, therefore, represents a lateral move for me, at best.

I truly believe that Linn made a mistake not included the Linn Transport in the Majik, especially for the money they are asking. I probably would have purchased the Majik on the spot if it included the transport.

However, the Akurate includes the transport, and that's where this saga stalls. I have a fairly decent inventory of HDCD disks, and only a few SACDs. The purchase of the Akurate would render my HDCD inventory obsolete, and I have no desire to re-invest in SACD only to be placed in this exact same position 7 years from now.

I have owned SACD players in the past, including the original heavy 777. My opinion on SACD is mixed, and being a vinyl head, I have no interest in MC formats.

Therefore, I can see me sticking to the Ikemi, which is win / win for me. One other consideration is to attach a fine DAC to the Ikemi - which has always been of interest to me.

Does anyone have any info using the Ikemi as a transport?

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Re: Ikemi vs Majik thoughts ...

Post by lejonklou »

Welcome here, Spitfire!

Reading your description of how sound quality relates to the transport, I think you have a point in how you group the players sound wise. But there is one exception: There is no difference between early and late Kariks regarding the transports, they are all made in-house.

Just to clarify to those who don't understand what we are talking about: The difference between for example a Karik and a Mimik (or an Ikemi and a Genki ) is that in the expensive player the laser assembly is fitted on a Linn-made subchassis and suspension, housed in a metal enclosure while in the cheaper player the same laser assembly fits into the original OEM mechanism.

Linn have simply improved the OEM transports (and at the same time added that impressive metal drawer, which probably doesn't contribute much to the sound) and I agree this makes a clearly audible difference.

Regarding Ikemi+DAC, I have heard a few combinations but none that improved upon the Ikemi alone. Make sure you compare them properly: Same interconnects moved from one output to the other, disconnect the DAC while playing the Ikemi on its own etc.
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Post by Spitfire »

Hi lejonklou,

I thought the original Karik used an OEM transport, the one I used had a plastic tray - not the metal version.

I always wondered if the Ikemi / Karik would make for a superior transport with non-Linn DACs. So many people raved about the Pioneer Stable Platter (which I've heard), or Teacs VRDS, yet the Linn transports goes un-noticed? To bad other DACs didn't incorporate the "synch" function of the Numeric.

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Post by lejonklou »

Weird! There are no Kariks with plastic trays. Perhaps someone fitted a Mimik transport into a Karik enclosure? :) Theoretically possible...

Yes, the synch idea was good. But with the DS (Digital Source) the transport quality don't matter any more (as long as the data is bit-correct), so there won't be any need for such innovations.

You really should listen to the Klimax DS. My guess is that the less expensive versions (that are likely to follow soon) will outperform most if not all of the CD players that you mention.
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Post by Spitfire »

Perhaps i'm confused, did the original Karik with the big drawer have a metal tray?

I found an old picture ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/linn-karik-cd-playe ... otohosting

Also, where can I read some info on the Klimax DS?

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Post by lejonklou »

All Kariks had a thin metal tray and a big piece glued on at the front, making the frontal area of the drawer identical with the one on the Mimik.

When Linn introduced the Karik-Numerik, I said to the Linn reps that I thought it would look cooler if the opening in the front was only as big as the thin metal tray. They disagreed with me and said it would look strange. But years later with the CD12 and the Ikemi, they did just that.

I was reminded of this when Nokia removed the external antenna from mobile phones; a competing brand claimed that "people want antennas on their phones" because that's what phones look like. :lol:

You can start reading a bit about the DS on this forum. If anyone has more useful links, please post them in the DS thread.

I don't mean to be hostile in any way, but I always liked the Messerschmitts the most. :mrgreen:
The 109's looked so mean compared the graceful Spitfires and most of all I admired the 262.
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