Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

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lejonklou
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by lejonklou »

Rutger wrote: 2019-08-23 20:25 Some tweeters can sound more musical when they are driven from a high impedance amplifier in active mode.
That means, putting a resistor about 3,3 ohms in series with the + connection of the tweeter can bring musical benefits.
The proof is in the listening. Ofcourse you have to compensate the gain so the tweeter sounds exactly as loud.

The reason that some loudspeakers, driven passive can sound a bit more musical in some cases is that they almost always have a resistor mounted before the tweeter.

If you like to experiment- try it. In this way, you can combine the benefits of passive and active mode.
With the resistor, the small voicecoil in the tweeter is sharing the upbuilding heat with the resistor.
Interesting idea Rutger!

I do however have problems understanding the theory behind it. Given that the tweeter plays as loud with and without the resistor, surely there can't be any difference in the heat it generates? The resistor simply lowers the level, but in addition also changes the frequency response, in relation to how the tweeter impedance curve looks. So it's certain to sound different.

My own very limited practical experience is that series resistors lowers the dynamic range of tweeters. I've always thought it was best with as little series resistance as possible. But I'm not (yet) a manufacturer of loudspeakers, so I really don't know what I'm talking about.
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Rutger »

My experience : it depends on what kind of tweeter and amplifier you use , if its gonna sound better or worse with a resistance or not.
You have to try and listen in every different setup. My experience with a resistance in front of a compression-driver made it sound worse than without. And the opposite, a Scanspeak Discovery R2604/8330 sounded more musical with the resistance than without. All in active mode with the same amplifier. My reference loudspeaker is a Linn akudorik with exakt and katalyst.

With a dsp as crossover you can compensate for the difference in the impedance curve so the amount of treble is exactly the same with or without the extra resistance.

This tweak will only work at the high frequencies. Adding resistance to a woofer always makes it sound worse.
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by lindsayt »

Active vs passive. It's very much a case of "it depends".

As a sweeping statement, the most tuneful passive systems that I've come across have had simple signal paths between the source and the speakers and have had speakers that have given the amplifiers an easy time. Efficient speakers with gentle impedance for the power amplifier.

Passive systems can have as few as 4 active amplification devices (transistors or valves or transformers) between the source and the speakers. Although something like 7, 8 or 9 transistors is more typical.

Op amp based 4th or 8th order analog active crossovers can have something of the order of 32 to 64 transistors in the signal path in the midrange. They will not be the most tuneful sounding transistors ever made as they are just the transistors embedded in the op amps.

Digital active crossovers will add a number of active amplification devices to the signal path. Transistors (usually in op amps) ADC (for analog source) DAC, more transistors. How many more? I don't know. As I've not seen a full circuit diagram for any digital active crossovers, including the circuit inside the ADC and DAC chips.

Garbage In, Garbage Out. Or think of it like Chinese whispers. A Chinese Whisper chain of 8 transistors in passive vs a very much longer Chinese Whisper chain in active, inculding digital active.

It all depends on whether the advantages of going active, for example more electrical damping of the bass driver are worth the disadvantages. In some systems they are. In some systems they aren't.
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by 2020VIsion »

Charlie1,

I have experienced something very similar and, like you, it has left me somewhat confused!

Using a pair of Ninkas with the older Linn boxes - a Linn Kairn preamp and Linn LK140 power amps - the hierarchy in sound quality was obvious. A single LK140 (in passive mode) did not sound as good as two LK140s (in biamp passive mode) which in turn did not sound as good as two LK140s in activ mode. In all respects the sound quality of biamp activ was better than biamp passive.

However, this is not the case when I upgraded my preamp and power amp to the Linn Akurate Kontrol and Linn Akurate 4200 (while still using Ninkas).

Yes, in Activ mode there are many improvements: bass depth, clarity of vocals, bigger sound stage, more separation of instruments, ability to go loud without stress etc. But like you, I have experienced some sort of loss in the cohesion of the sound in Activ mode. There's something going with the treble: it sounds/feels like the tweeters are "spitting out" the sound, something metallic and sibilant.

In passive mode the treble is softer and more detailed, and the tweeter units disappear into the sound field.

I have ended up with several (totally unscientific) theories:

1. Perhaps a single Akurate 4200 is not powerful enough, and a second power amp is required;

2. Perhaps the newer pre/power amps reveal the limitations of the older generation speakers;

3. Perhaps it is the voicing of the newer amps;

4. Perhaps it's the mix of new electronics (amps) and old electronics (speakers);

5. Perhaps Linn just did not spend that much time voicing the newer Ninka activ cards (ie the ones that are installed in the newer power amps) for an old speaker like the Ninka.

I had the older Linn LK140 set up for over 10 years in 3 different listening environments, and have had the newer akurate set up for over 3 years and have done all the tunedem/ speaker positioning experiments several times over the years, but my subjective opinion on this difference is sound remains.
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Charlie1 »

Oh, that's a shame. Are you tempted to sell and buy the old setup again or are you happy with the passive 4200?

If you want to play around more with aktiv then you could try external Silver ICs to connect the channels instead of the internal links.

If you enjoy the passive 4200 but want something even better then I would have thought a KCT is a safe bet and enjoyable upgrade. It should be a bit more musical and quite a lot more powerful and controlled. More money again though.

I can't really comment on your theories, other than I doubt that the newer amps are revealing weaknesses in the Ninkas.
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Tony Tune-age »

lejonklou wrote: 2019-08-23 20:56My own very limited practical experience is that series resistors lowers the dynamic range of tweeters. I've always thought it was best with as little series resistance as possible. But I'm not (yet) a manufacturer of loudspeakers, so I really don't know what I'm talking about.
Good morning Fredrik,

Does the above statement mean you are currently working on a speaker design? And will most likely have stereo speakers in your audio line of products soon?

Cheers
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by lejonklou »

Good afternoon Tony!

There will be no speakers soon, but hopefully some day!
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by 2020VIsion »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-09-18 18:22 Oh, that's a shame. Are you tempted to sell and buy the old setup again or are you happy with the passive 4200?
My LK box ownership was nearer to 15 years than the 10 years I had previously posted. I started experiencing reliability issues with the various units, and that's what led me to the newer, akurate range.
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-09-18 18:22
If you want to play around more with aktiv then you could try external Silver ICs to connect the channels instead of the internal links.
I changed my interconnect (from DAC to preamp) to the Silver ICs and the difference is noticeable and startling. The system in activ mode now sounds far more coherent than before. The treble no longer "spits" and sounds more integrated into the musical field. So I am going to upgrade my other Linn Black ICs to the Silver ICs (from the preamp to the poweramp) and follow your advice on removing the internal links and using external Silver ICs (when I am brave enough to reopen the lid and perform the delicate operation!).

Thanks Charlie1 for your advice, very much appreciated.

Will try out Fredrik's recommendations on twists and turns and directionality as well...
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Charlie1 »

Glad to read you're making progress. Let us know how you get on.
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Chet »

When I went from passive to Activ with my 350s, the results were more clarity, coherence and enjoyment.
LP12 > CD12 > KK1 > Twins >350's Activ
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by lejonklou »

Chet wrote: 2020-10-22 10:59 When I went from passive to Activ with my 350s, the results were more clarity, coherence and enjoyment.
From passive with what to aktiv with what?

The what's make all the difference.
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Discodave »

I ran a bi amp system for a few years, LK100 feeding bass and Majik 2100 treble/mids of Majik 109s. I really did enjoy it, but the more I got into tunedem and with the help of CJS on here I realised the Majik 2100 on it's own was by far the better option musically. Missed a bit of bass but nothing to get upset about.

I'd love to live with an activ system to experience it, but the costs compared to a single amp is just a no brainer for me personally.
LP12, Lingo 3, Cirkus/Kore, Tramp 2, Basik Plus Ania, Linto
Majik Ds, Kisto, Tundra 2.0, Majik 109
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by Chet »

With the 350s (passive, 350P) you can only only go Activ with the Tuneboxes (Klimax 350 Tunebox Active Crossovers). You then need 4 amps - mine were 4 Klimax twins. I had been running the 350P's passive for months previously with the same 4 twins and type of cabling. Playing and testing through a CD12 & LP12 before and after. The 350's also need some conversion (some boards) which is supplied with the Klimax 350 Tunebox Active Crossovers. ALso playing before and after through the same Klimax Kontrol/1.
LP12 > CD12 > KK1 > Twins >350's Activ
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Re: Is aktiv operation best in all respects (same quality amp)?

Post by lejonklou »

Chet wrote: 2020-10-22 11:39 With the 350s (passive, 350P) you can only only go Activ with the Tuneboxes (Klimax 350 Tunebox Active Crossovers). You then need 4 amps - mine were 4 Klimax twins. I had been running the 350P's passive for months previously with the same 4 twins and type of cabling. Playing and testing through a CD12 & LP12 before and after. The 350's also need some conversion (some boards) which is supplied with the Klimax 350 Tunebox Active Crossovers. ALso playing before and after through the same Klimax Kontrol/1.
I see. Passive multi amping and then converting to aktiv is always an upgrade (unless the aktiv filter is bad).

Single amp, single wire is a different matter altogether. Much superior to any passive multi amping.
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