Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

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hcl
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Post by hcl »

lejonklou wrote:Sorry hcl, but your arguments are simplistic. To get a better understanding, take a look at actual circuits and summarize their sources of noise. Then you will find that a large contributor is the high value resistors required for a decent input load. Those cause most balanced inputs to be significantly more noisy than unbalanced.

Signal to noise is another matter. Any noise added after the volume control will remain, regardless of signal strength. So there it's best to keep the noise floor down.
Well, my argument refers to what is possible (optimum in this respect, if you will). Non optimal circuits can add as much noise as one choses and it might be for good reasons.
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Post by lejonklou »

hcl wrote:Well, my argument refers to what is possible (optimum in this respect, if you will). Non optimal circuits can add as much noise as one choses and it might be for good reasons.
As Thomas mentioned, you're talking about signal transmission, where balanced has a higher signal to noise ratio.

I am talking about circuits, where balanced are more noisy. To understand why, you have to look at how they are built.

Both are facts, in theory and in practice. It's not about anything being "non optimal".
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by rowlandhills »

I don't recall seeing an answer to this question earlier in the thread, but please point me at an answer if there is one...

If you need more than 2.48m, is it preferable to go to a multiple of this number, or or there no particular evidence for that?

I may well be moving house this year, and in some of the potential houses we've already looked at, the kit rack would have to be at least 3.5m from one speaker. I was wondering if I'd be better if getting something like 3.8m cables, to be as near 2.48m as possible, or whether 4.96m would sound better.

Any thoughts welcome. Thanks.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

rowlandhills wrote:I don't recall seeing an answer to this question earlier in the thread, but please point me at an answer if there is one...

If you need more than 2.48m, is it preferable to go to a multiple of this number, or or there no particular evidence for that?

I may well be moving house this year, and in some of the potential houses we've already looked at, the kit rack would have to be at least 3.5m from one speaker. I was wondering if I'd be better if getting something like 3.8m cables, to be as near 2.48m as possible, or whether 4.96m would sound better.

Any thoughts welcome. Thanks.
No evidence at all of a multiple being special. The effect of length that I hear is very linear: Longer than 2.48 becomes gradually more relaxed and less precise. It sort of looses the leading edge on the notes. Shorter than 2.48 and it becomes staccato-like.

So I recommend keeping them as short as possible, but not shorter than 2.48 m.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by rowlandhills »

Thanks Fredrik.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by sunbeamgls »

Working on a pair of AV5140s I found that there are different cable lengths from the crossover to each of the drivers. Also, there were some of these crossover to driver runs where the black cable wasn't the same length as the red cable (although some were the same length).

Given that, how can a speaker cable length be determined as something as accurate as 2.48m? Does it not vary from system to system? What about the effect of the innards of something like the 350p where there is a different length of cables to the bass drivers as to the other drivers? And I assume the cables inside my M140s are considerably longer than those in my Katans? How does 2.48m work then please?

I don't have a problem with the potential for there being an optimum length, I'm just not sure how it can be consistent across speaker models.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

I'm not sure what you mean by "Given that,..." sunbeamgls. If the wires were not of the same length in the right speaker as in the left, it just means the construction lacks attention to detail.

I have confirmed the 2.48 m length of K400 in between power amplifier and connectors on crossover on at least five different loudspeaker models. And also in between power amplifier and connectors going direct to a drive unit (in an aktiv system). So there's definitely something in that length of K400.

The strange exception appeared on the passive Klångedang T1 speakers, where the filter is in a separate box. For some reason, they sound best with 2.48 m in between passive filter and loudspeaker, and a very short cable between power amp and passive filter. Reversing the cable lengths sounds considerably worse. And so does two runs of 2.48 m instead of one 2.48 and one really short. This despite the filters and speaker NOT having been designed or fine tuned with these lengths. So there's definitely something in that 2.48 m length of K400. And in some cases also in very short lengths of K400! But on all other speakers than Klångedang T1"s amp-to-filter, shorter than 2.48 has been bad.

Aha! Now I suddenly understand what you mean!

You are saying How come the length is so precise when it's followed by various lengths of cables inside the loudspeaker (and the amp)? OK, the reason for this is simple: The cable ends with connectors - and the presence of the connector is what defines the length.

This phenomenon occurs frequently, such as in power cords. You can have 5 m of cable in your wall between the fusebox and your wall outlet OR you can have 15 m of cable there - still the difference between two otherwise identical power cords of 2 and 2.5 metre will be exactly the same! This is because the length in between plug and connector matters. Every time a cable is cut and terminated - or even pinched! - reflections occur within the cable. And how these behave is determined by the length.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

Was that what you meant, sunbeamgls?

Or did I misunderstand?
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by sunbeamgls »

lejonklou wrote:Was that what you meant, sunbeamgls?

Or did I misunderstand?
Yes. It seems odd that 2.48m plus the post crossover lengths (for example) 1m of cable to the tweeter, 0.85m of cable to the mid driver and 0.75m of cable to the bass driver in an AV5140 (don't quote me on these exact lengths - they're illustrative but representative) would give the best sound as 2.48m plus (again, example lengths) 0.5m of cable to the tweeter and 0.4m of cable to the mid-bass in a Katan.

The unequal lengths of cable I found in my AV5140s weren't between the 2 speakers in the pair (I didn't actually make that comparison, I wish I had), but that the red cable to the bass driver was shorter than the black cable to the same driver. I brought this up as I find that if there is that kind of variation going on inside the cabinet of a speaker, than 0.1m difference in length of the cable from amp to speaker cabinet SHOULD be either irrelevant or inconsistent in results.

Your point about terminations and pinching in cables is an interesting one. That means that not only the type of connections used inside the speaker cabinet are important, but the routing of those cables too, as they may be pinched if corners are too tight, for example.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

Ok, then I understood you correctly.
sunbeamgls wrote:I brought this up as I find that if there is that kind of variation going on inside the cabinet of a speaker, than 0.1m difference in length of the cable from amp to speaker cabinet SHOULD be either irrelevant or inconsistent in results.
The quality of the cable between power amp and loudspeaker input is independent of the quality of the cables that precede it (inside the power amplifier) and follow it (inside the loudspeaker).

Why? Because of the terminations.
sunbeamgls wrote:Your point about terminations and pinching in cables is an interesting one. That means that not only the type of connections used inside the speaker cabinet are important, but the routing of those cables too, as they may be pinched if corners are too tight, for example.
Yes, the routing matters. And how and where you fasten or glue the cable. Lots of trial error needed there if everything is to be optimised.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by u252agz »

Fredrik

If there is potential for variation in sound with the fastening and gluing of cables within speakers ( and other things like driver installation) - then is it possible that the sound of the speaker varies with the person who has assembled the speakers.


I note that on my Ninkas and 242s - the same persons name is on each speaker minimising the variation between the two - a good thing.

But two different people assembling the same model could lead to different sounds- perhaps.

Maybe there is one person at Linn whose speakers are always consistently the best, for any given model?

Perhaps these should command a premium.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by matthias »

u252agz wrote: Perhaps these should command a premium.
Yes, but certainly there is an issue of proper training the others.

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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by macrotech2 »

matthias wrote:
u252agz wrote: Perhaps these should command a premium.
Yes, but certainly there is an issue of proper training the others.

Matt
For me, at the price levels Linn charge, variation in quality due to this sort of thing would be completely unacceptable. I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for something that should have been done correctly in the first place!
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by moog_man »

macrotech2 wrote:
matthias wrote:
u252agz wrote: Perhaps these should command a premium.
Yes, but certainly there is an issue of proper training the others.

Matt
For me, at the price levels Linn charge, variation in quality due to this sort of thing would be completely unacceptable. I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for something that should have been done correctly in the first place!
Agree. The idea of 'favouring' one employee over another has the potential to cause all sorts of problems. It's Bad Management 101.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by TrudyAgee »

You can desolder a banana from an already tested cable, clean it with new solder, taking off the excess just vigorously shaking the connector while still hot, and then resolder the connector in a freshly cutted cable just as if it was new.
In my experience, if you use the same solder and don't "cook" the connector, you get nearly no difference in sound compared with a new one.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by donuk »

Welcome to the most friendly HiFi forum in the world, Trudyagee.

I have done just as you describe and have heard no real difference.
That is not to say there aren't some on this forum who have.....

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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by u252agz »

Tried 2.48 m K200 and 9 metre Blacks /silver connectors vs my existing 1.2 m Linn silvers and 9m K200.

Much preferred the longer interconnects and shorter speaker cables.

Full report on 'optimal length of analogue interconnects' thread.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Raylogic »

Hi, just doing some planning for my 1st Linn hi-fi. Is the 2.48 to plug ends or just cable tip to cable tip (sleeve removed?).

R.
- Linn [placeholder], M6100 (active), M140, K400.
- BT Homehub 5, Netgear GS105, [placeholder].
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

Hi Raylogic!

2.48 m is the "copper length". You cut the K400 so that it measures 248 cm when lying straight on the floor. Then you strip the ends and terminate with connectors.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Raylogic »

Thank you, I've been unable to find K400 so will likely be going with K200 or will that change the advised length!?
- Linn [placeholder], M6100 (active), M140, K400.
- BT Homehub 5, Netgear GS105, [placeholder].
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

I have not tested the optimal length of the silver K200, so I don't know what it is. It takes a good while to do that, as you need to make a lot of cables very carefully, to make sure only the length differs.

I've listened to the silver K200 in lengths of 2.50 m and not been impressed enough to invest any more time in it.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Raylogic »

Oh boy.

So I need to undertake a holy quest in search of K400.

R.
- Linn [placeholder], M6100 (active), M140, K400.
- BT Homehub 5, Netgear GS105, [placeholder].
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by ThomasOK »

They do come up used from time to time here and of EvilBay.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Raylogic »

So I found some, arrived today.

https://ibb.co/nsTYzR
https://ibb.co/fF6aDm

Woohoo
- Linn [placeholder], M6100 (active), M140, K400.
- BT Homehub 5, Netgear GS105, [placeholder].
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

Good job!

Someone's covered it with one of those plastic weaved tubings. Did they really think that looked any better? :oD

Personally I think those weaved jackets look really cheap. It always amuses me when ultra expensive esoteric cables use them.
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