Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

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Raylogic
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Raylogic »

Yeah I'm chuffed, hopefully the 2 X 5m long enough to cut down to that magic 2.48m to connect all inputs on the Majik 140 my dealer has reserved for me.

Next challenge find a M6100 and M DSM (challenge as in availability v price 2nd hand).

Coming back to the sleeving, yeah your probably right but I'm undecided right now, priority was to secure the product and at a price I could justify to myself :)

I've a lot of work to do, starting with refurbishing, decoraring and furnishing the room, and with little funds to throw at it we will just have to see how then securing the hi-fi goes..
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Donald »

Won't tell you how long the K400 and split K400 is in my system - I'll be chucked out the Forum!
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by sunbeamgls »

Donald wrote:Won't tell you how long the K400 and split K400 is in my system - I'll be chucked out the Forum!
But longer is better than shorter, so you'll probably be allowed to live another day...
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by BruceP »

Hi all, my first post to this lively, fascinating, and useful forum.

Like many here, I don’t have the luxury of using optimal length K400 as my amp needs to sit ~3.7 meters from the right speaker. Two questions I have now:

1- should I be looking to use identical length 3.7m runs of K400 to each speaker, even though the left speaker sits within 2 meters of the amp?

Assuming the answer to this is yes but looking for confirmation.

I am able to create 2x 3.7m runs by splicing or soldering 2 separate K400 segments together, which I have on hand. So question 2 is:

2- Does joining two different cables together alter or diminish the performance of K400, i.e. instead of looking for a dealer who is handy with a soldering kit should I rather be looking to source an uncut 3.7m pair of K400?

I also suspect the answer to this is yes but again looking to confirm.

My system is aktiv Keilidhs driven by a C4100 fed by a Classik Music and Roon on a QNAP NAS —> Apple TV —> musical Fidelity vDACII. Lots of upside on this system, I know. That’s part of the fun.

Thanks!
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by ThomasOK »

Hi BruceP, Welcome to the forum! I'm afraid you won't be happy with my answers. First off you do indeed want the speaker cables to be the same length. They will not sound right if they are different. Secondly, it is really not a good idea to solder two lengths of cable together. Minimizing the number of connections the signal has to go through is almost always a good idea. The extra solder connection will change the music somewhat. I'm not going to say that either of these will destroy the music, but if you are trying for the closest to optimum possible I woud try to find two lengths of K400 that are 3.7m or longer and have them trimmed to the right size. Then terminated with Deltron or Linn Knekt bananas.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by BruceP »

ThomasOK, I’ll follow your guidance.
Many thanks for your help.
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Re: Optimal length of speaker wires

Post by Hermann »

lejonklou wrote: 2014-04-21 11:22
Pedro wrote:Is there a correlation between the optimal length of speaker wires and the length of the power cable?
No, nothing indicates a correlation between these two.

The best power cord I currently supply (on my small units such as Gaio and Slipsik) is a UK version from Volex. It's 3 m long and making it shorter makes it perform worse. I don't know whether it could sound even better if it was longer than 3 m, but it does become quite impractical with such long cords, so I'm not in a hurry to find out. Add to that the risk that people (unaware of it being a quality issue) cut them down, which I have seen a few times. A perhaps convenient length of 0.2 m on a Slipsik 5 with a screw on plug makes it perform restless and harsh. Much bigger difference than one expects!

When I tried different cable constructions of power cords a while back, each type appeared to have it's own optimal length. I suspect the same thing applies to different speaker cables (I have so far only evaluated the length of K400).
I know, it's been five years since this was written. But is it still up to date? Did you carry out tests concerning power cables and their optimal length Fredrik?

The reason is that I need two power cords with a length of at least 4.2m, since my Radikal including superline/supercap is too far from the wall socket.

Currently these are connected via a self-made powerstrip using original power cables to the devices. For the self-made powerstrip I use 2.5qmm Lapp cable (ÖLFLEX FD 891 CY 3G1.5, shielded), as this was the best compromise. Various attempts with other Lapp cable and other Brands failed. Even connectors from Furutech showed no improvement.

Tried to buy Naim Powercable by the meter for quite some time, but that's just impossible. Also the replacement of the original power cables by others or "better" were recommended, never went satisfactorily. The originals were always better. Since I want to throw out that power strip, I would be happy about recommendations.
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Re: Optimal length of speaker wires

Post by lejonklou »

Hermann wrote: 2019-06-14 08:41 I know, it's been five years since this was written. But is it still up to date? Did you carry out tests concerning power cables and their optimal length Fredrik?

The reason is that I need two power cords with a length of at least 4.2m, since my Radikal including superline/supercap is too far from the wall socket.

Currently these are connected via a self-made powerstrip using original power cables to the devices. For the self-made powerstrip I use 2.5qmm Lapp cable (ÖLFLEX FD 891 CY 3G1.5, shielded), as this was the best compromise. Various attempts with other Lapp cable and other Brands failed. Even connectors from Furutech showed no improvement.

Tried to buy Naim Powercable by the meter for quite some time, but that's just impossible. Also the replacement of the original power cables by others or "better" were recommended, never went satisfactorily. The originals were always better. Since I want to throw out that power strip, I would be happy about recommendations.
Hello Hermann!

I'm sorry, but it seems I never answered this question of yours.

Unfortunately I don't have many answers. I once made a really long power cord, which was feeding a power amp standing on the other side of the room. It turned out that it sounded better terminating that long cable with a power strip and then add a regular (but great sounding) 2.5 m power cord, feeding the power amp. Instead of just terminating it with a power connector and plugging that into the amp.

This seems to follow the rule that the closer to the unit, the more important the cables, or "power parts" are. So the amp seemed to prefer that good regular 2.5 m power cord (and care less about the power strip feeding the power cord) to a very long a worse sounding power cord.

Has anything happened since you wrote about this in June?
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Spannko »

If I may, I’ll describe some of my observations with power flex’s and mains supply cables. A flex is defined as the flexible cable running from the wall outlet to the HiFi. A cable is the more rigid cable running from the consumer unit to the wall outlet.

So, in no particular order:

1. All cables are directional. That is, not just the power flex or flex to the power strip. The cable running from the consumer unit to the wall outlet is also directional.

2. Having just one cable/flex running in the wrong direction will limit the performance of the entire system.

3. The length, CSA and construction of the power cable from the CU to wall outlet may effect the performance of the system. A KDS appears to have a preference for a particular resistance of mains cable ( equivalent to 6.75m of 2.5mm2 cable). A deviation of +/- 20 cm is easily heard. Increasing the length and CSA to 10.8m of 4mm2 also works well - maybe even slightly better. The Dorik amp’s appears to be similarly fussy. On the other hand, a Melco appears to be relatively unfussy about the length of cable feeding it. Anything between about 6.5m and 8m of 2.5mm (= 10.4m - 12.8m of 4mm2) cable appears to be ok, although I haven’t tried anything over 8m.

4. I’m not sure if there’s anything intrinsically better or worse about the CSA of the mains cable. The Dorik amp’s sound slightly better with 6mm2 cable compared to the equivalent resistance of 4mm2 cable, and the KDS sounds slightly better with 4mm2 vs == 2.5mm2 cable. I’m pretty sure that the “loading”? is more important than the CSA. I’ve told my wife that I won’t spend any more money on cables, but I suppose I really need to try 16.2m of 6mm2 cable on the KDS before I close this particular chapter of experiments.

5. I’ve got a feeling that the reason that adding dedicated power supply cables has been such a controversial subject is that a) some people may be lucky and have a good power supply to start with and adding a dedicated power supply could make things worse (if the cables aren’t directionalised or the “loading” provided by the cables is unsympathetic with the system), b) some people replace a poor power supply with another poor power supply, therefore hear little or no difference, etc, etc. However, if done correctly, I’m in no doubt that a good power supply can make a significant difference.


Here’s an example of tuning the power cable for the KDS. The lengths are for 2.5mm cable with a standard length Linn Longwell flex.

7.75m: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eyr2u2zpuo5p ... 1.mov?dl=0
7.75m: https://www.dropbox.com/s/noxqn8l397af ... 2.mov?dl=0

5.75m: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cwv3rvoi74bu ... 1.mov?dl=0
5.75m: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjt8w9mznb1h ... 2.mov?dl=0

6.75m: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8wh7iro4znin ... 1.mov?dl=0
6.75m: https://www.dropbox.com/s/um60k80yb3dw ... 2.mov?dl=0
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

Love your work on this and your generous sharing of it, Spannko!

Respect!
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2019-10-29 17:46 Love your work on this and your generous sharing of it, Spannko!

Respect!
Thank you, you’re welcome.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by beck »

Impressive Spannko! It is easy to hear the difference.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Hermann »

Hi Fredrik,
As long as the music plays, an answer is not unconditional immediately and urgently necessary. A solution is found.

I've been experimenting with cables for over 40 years. There were really very experimental constructions, such as the shielding of antenna cable (back in the 70th) for loudspeakers or signal cables tinkered. Or also normal cable for installations tested. I really do not remember how many different types I tried in time.

After it turns out that the long cables are rather counterproductive, then I am back to the setup you have described. Power strip and original power cable. However, the power strip is soldered, as well as the cable from the fuse box to the actual power strip to which everything else is connected.

I have to admit, however, that for the first time in my life I bought quite expensive power cables. Powerline from Naim, but used. These are actually a significant improvement in the musical sense. Incidentally, the powerline on the radical does not work at all.

Anyway, I am now satisfied with the arrangement.

@Spannko,
Thank you for your comments.
Cables have a direction, I know that. All self-made cable tests are done by me in both directions. Usually the direction of the imprint is actually the right one. Its easy to perform this.
Although there was a very small improvement when turnig over but hardly significant.

I've tested with 1.5, 2.5, 4 and 6qmm. In the end I stayed at 4qmm, which was the best.

In terms of length, cut from 5m to 4.2m in 10cm increments. There was no effect on the Lapp Olflex cable. For others, maybe.

I'll listen the samples later, thank you very much for the detail descrition.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by ThomasOK »

Very cool. For me the clips went from worst to best with the medium length being best and the short better than the long.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote: 2019-10-29 19:37 Very cool. For me the clips went from worst to best with the medium length being best and the short better than the long.
+1, and echo the sentiments & gratitude above: I appreciate the effort that went into making the clips possible and, especially you sharing your findings & the clips.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by imarcel »

Hello Fredrik,

here in the thread on page 2 you stated:

"While Knekts appear to have very little variation in size, banana holes can vary quite a bit (and on older Linn speakers such as Kan, Sara, Isobarik etc, Knekts don't fit at all as the holes are smaller)."

Which banana plugs would you recomend for older Linn Kan I´s ? Mine are around serial 10700 with the connectors that reach out about 2 cm of the cabinet. Deltron 550 ?

Trying to get my speaker wires right.

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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

imarcel wrote: 2020-02-25 22:12 Which banana plugs would you recomend for older Linn Kan I´s ? Mine are around serial 10700 with the connectors that reach out about 2 cm of the cabinet. Deltron 550 ?
Hi Marcel!

I don't keep track of the serial numbers, but suspect that Deltron 550's is the right choice.

They're really cheap, so buy some and test whether they fit well. You need several, as on some the spring has a bad fitting and don't protrude as much as they should (they can be bent out, but the easy way is to have several at hand so that you can compare their fit in the hole).
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by imarcel »

Hello Fredrik,

thank you.
I have been using the Knekts. I allways had to force them into the plugs but never thought this would be bad for performance.
The Deltron 550 fit better, you are right. I have one pair lying around, don´t know where they came from.

I have linn solder and a JBC BT-2BWA soldering station. It is analogue, so difficult to get an exact temperature, but will try and solder a bit over 350 celsius.

K400, I do have enough, so of course 248 will be the way.

I will post the results if still of interest.

Greetings Marcel
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

Two thoughts:

Although your Knekts might have become a bit squashed, they can still sound good and perhaps a better than Deltron 550.

There is no such thing as "Linn solder" so the question is what you have and what the optimal tip temperature is.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by imarcel »

"There is no such thing as "Linn solder" "
...interesting. I got it many years ago from a Linn dealer. He named it "Linn solder" and said he had gotten it from Linn for terminating speaker wires. I suppose he did not care to be very exact.

As for finding the optimal tip temperature, I am not sure if I am up to that task.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by lejonklou »

What I mean with "There is no such thing as Linn solder" is that they have used and supplied countless of different solder wires over the years. When I worked in retail, I don't think we ever received the same model twice.

If it's a leaded solder wire, slightly above 350 degrees Celsius, as you intended, is a good bet.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by imarcel »

thank you for the clarification.
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Mitmu »

Must say, I just switched from 'new/silver' K-200 to a 'Lejonklou spec 'old' split-K-400' and everything just became a bit better!

More addictive and musical sound, almost a feeling of wearing headphones, I cannot point our what is exactly better, it just sounds more as a 'whole'. Never expected this but what a welcome surprise! :)
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Re: Which is the optimal length of speaker wires?

Post by Sopper »

Mitmu wrote: 2023-03-14 12:51 Must say, I just switched from 'new/silver' K-200 to a 'Lejonklou spec 'old' split-K-400' and everything just became a bit better!

More addictive and musical sound, almost a feeling of wearing headphones, I cannot point our what is exactly better, it just sounds more as a 'whole'. Never expected this but what a welcome surprise! :)
And i use some Vandamme speakercable while waiting for the Linn K400 to arrive... and i'm missing something in the music, since i send the K400 Lejonklou spec to you :)
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