beck wrote: ↑2023-11-02 07:52 ………. not to mention cables and setup!

I value a human like communication above all else when listening. That is why I love listening to my wife playing the piano in the living room. :-)

Spannko wrote: ↑2023-11-02 09:21 I agree charlie1. There’s a level below which no component can be allowed to fall, be that a turntable, an amplifier, a speaker, a cable or even individual components, such as resistors, capacitors etc, making up each major component. I think source first emerged when the LP12 demonstrated that nearly all turntables fell below a minimum standard of musicality, but as you rightly point out, a system which satisfies over the long term requires that every component achieves a minimum standard of musicality.

springwood64 wrote: ↑2023-11-02 10:32 There are so many factors involved in getting enjoyment from a music replay set up that generalisation can sometimes be more misleading than helpful.

Apart from the equipment and the set up, there is the room, the context (home? on the move? ), the listener's habits, and their expectations.

'Source first' tells us that information lost at source can never be recovered later in the chain. But extrapolating from that to say the source is the only focus, or even the most important, risks ignoring the other factors. Information can be lost at any point in the chain, but: that may not be critical for listener enjoyment. The listener's habits and expectations are also a very big factor in 'enjoyability'.

springwood64 wrote: ↑2023-11-02 10:32 I really enjoy music in my car, but it's not a hifi experience. My family listen to music in an entirely different way to me, and while they hear improvements in the system, they don't get more enjoyment from it.

Charlie1 wrote: ↑2023-11-02 10:50 I do still see the source as the most important component in terms of spending.

springwood64 wrote: ↑2023-11-02 10:32 There are so many factors involved in getting enjoyment from a music replay set up that generalisation can sometimes be more misleading than helpful.

Apart from the equipment and the set up, there is the room, the context (home? on the move? ), the listener's habits, and their expectations.

'Source first' tells us that information lost at source can never be recovered later in the chain. But extrapolating from that to say the source is the only focus, or even the most important, risks ignoring the other factors. Information can be lost at any point in the chain, but: that may not be critical for listener enjoyment. The listener's habits and expectations are also a very big factor in 'enjoyability'.

I really enjoy music in my car, but it's not a hifi experience. My family listen to music in an entirely different way to me, and while they hear improvements in the system, they don't get more enjoyment from it.

So, what is important is very personal

Sopper wrote: ↑2023-11-02 13:53 Mood and mental state first > then source etc.

Sopper wrote: ↑2023-11-02 13:53 Mood and mental state first > then source etc.

Lego wrote: ↑2023-11-02 21:42 I think if the source is top notch or is well setup(LP12) then you'd really need to get a terrible amp and speaker setup to not enjoy putting a record on.
Comparing amps and speakers you would come across something better or worse,but the main outcome is always enjoyable listening.If not it's definitely the source that's the issue.
This is not negotiable 😁
If someone has been guided to get such a top notch front end then where and how could it all go so badly wrong !!??

I have to disagree with you on this one Charle1 .I mean where would the point of reference be?
Some other past life where a system was engaging and enjoyable,but now it isn't?Sorry that doesn't make sense to me . However if the person is continually playing music they don't like well........

Spannko wrote: ↑2023-11-03 01:21

Lego wrote: ↑2023-11-02 21:42 I think if the source is top notch or is well setup(LP12) then you'd really need to get a terrible amp and speaker setup to not enjoy putting a record on.
Comparing amps and speakers you would come across something better or worse,but the main outcome is always enjoyable listening.If not it's definitely the source that's the issue.
This is not negotiable 😁
If someone has been guided to get such a top notch front end then where and how could it all go so badly wrong !!??

I have to disagree with you on this one Charle1 .I mean where would the point of reference be?
Some other past life where a system was engaging and enjoyable,but now it isn't?Sorry that doesn't make sense to me . However if the person is continually playing music they don't like well........

This isn’t my experience tbh Lego. I’ve heard many decent sounding LP12’s reduced to sounding below par by substituting below par amps and speakers into the system eg LP12/Krell/Celestion SL600’s is one that stands out in my memory. The LP12 can’t turn a pigs ear into a silk purse!

Charlie1 wrote: ↑2023-11-03 16:31 Yeah, I definitely did some other comparisons but using the LP12 in both setups. Can't recall what I did now. Might have involved a KK1 and Kikkin plus other changes but really don't remember - it was in our old house so 13+ years ago.

Charlie1 wrote: ↑2023-11-03 18:15 Yeah, source first was best.

Here's a hypothetical system for you since I haven't done a real world comparison.

1. Klimax LP12 > Sagatun Monos > Tundra Monos > Inexpressive speakers that don't let the music through very well
2. Selekt LP12 > Boazu > Majik 109s

I think I'd pick system 2.