LP12 upgrade?

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Efraim roots
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LP12 upgrade?

Post by Efraim roots »

Greetings
I have come to the point that my next upgrades will be LP12 related. Today I have a LP12 from 1996 with Trampolin2/Lingo2/Ekos/Adikt and my first idéa was to to get the Radikal as I read so much about how great it is, I also heard the LP12 with Radikal and Keel and are mighty impressed, even tho the prices are out of this(my) world I would still consider the radikal as it seems to make the most improvement. I could maybe wait to see if there is a used keel on sale aswell, If I find one can I use it with my Ekos 1 or are they different from the Ekos SE?
I also wonder about my 1996 LP12, maybe should the first step should be to change my LP12mechanics for a brand new one as I read about people who thinks a brand new LP12 will perform quite much better than my mid 90's sondek? Is it worth it? I must also say that maybe I will only be able to make 1 or 2 upgrades to the LP12 before my priorities change as I plan for a simple life on the country. So bang for buck and longlivity is imporatant.
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lejonklou
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Post by lejonklou »

Not long ago, I had an LP12 very similar to yours. I changed the mechanics to a brand new one, while carefully comparing and looking for details that differed. The differences were few and not that important, but the brand new mechanics did sound a bit better than the approx 15 year old one.

All Linn arms fit the Keel. Personally, I would rank the Radikal as seven times more important (tounge in cheek there - the number is irrelevant as they are not possible to compare) so unless an absolute bargain Keel appears in front of you, I would save the money for a future Radikal.

The Radikal really is horrendously expensive, given that it's a Swiss electric motor and a cleverly built power supply. But when I heard what it does to the music, I kind of understood the pricing policy. Linn ask you to pay for the result, not just what's in the box you carry home.

While some would probably recommend you to change to an MC, I would personally stick with the Adikt and aim towards Radikal, best possible support (wall or floor might depend on the conditions in your next home) and best possible phono preamp. MC's are better, but their mileage is costly. With an MM, all you will need replacing is a stylus and a belt every 1-4 years.
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Post by ThomasOK »

Fredrik has covered this quite well and I fully agree that the Radikal is much more important than any other upgrade for the LP12 - it is definitely what you should be aiming for. Once that is in place the Keel is certainly the next item to go for.

I wouldn't worry about changing your mechanics. A 1996 LP12 is a modern machine. My LP12 is a 1997. There have really been no major changes to the mechanics since about 1993. Your motor might be a slightly older version than current but a Radikal will replace that anyway. Other than that your mechanics are up to date. A custom plinth would be another possibility but it has to the the right one - see this thread:

http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=294

Finally, the new thinner felt mat does sound better than the older one and will only set you back $30US - a cheap upgrade indeed.
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Post by Azazello »

Deleted one post since it had nothing to do with the subject and since tune-dem obviously was not the evaluation method behind the reasoning.
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Post by Efraim roots »

Thanks for your replies! That was what I hoped to hear, even tho the Radikal is expensive it is still nice to know that I will get the most important upgrade and that it will be very wortwhile even without EkosSE, Keel and Akiva. Also feels good to clear that naging feeling of maybe I should get some brand new mechnics.

Regarding support I have recently bought and mod some Ikea Lack coffetables after the instructions on the musiikin homepage. My first idea was to get Harmonihyllan+1mimer as my next upgrade but as I have been thinking more about it I feel getting the radikal is the better alternative. What do you think about that priority? I also thinking that when I move to my future house on the countryside I will have the space, equipment and resources to make my own rack. Maybe I will have bad floor or maybe I need to protect the Hifi from children and pets, such factors may play a big role in what rack will fit my future home.

If you don't strongly suggests I should get harmonihyllan istead of radikal, how will I get the most out from my modded Ikea Lack tables? I read that the LP12 soild board may be better than trampolin2 on such support, is it worth it for me to get the solid board instead of my trampolin2?

I use Kinki2 as my phonopreamp today, when I compared to a slipsik4 I felt that the Kinki2 was better. I will listen to the new slipsik5 when it arrives and see If it would be worth changing to. I really like the concept of using a good MM instead of MC as I play alot of records and singles and some day I'm sure an accident will happen.. (knock on wood..)

Nice to know that the new felt mat is better aswell as my mat is not in very good condition and I now have a good reason to replace it :)
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Thomas stated the new Linn felt mat sounds better than the original/older mat, what causes the improved sound? Is it because of less mass?
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Post by lejonklou »

The thickness makes a big difference. The new mat is thinner and sounds clearly better - great value for money.

Apart from these two Linn mats, there are thicker ones (Rega) and thinner ones (Pro-Ject). On an LP12, both sounds worse. The sound is clearly related to the thickness, but there are probably differences due to fabric quality as well.
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Post by davestp1 »

Not to pour water on your parade, but would'nt a thicker mat change the vertical tracking angle of the tonearm/cartridge combo? The thicker mat would, in general terms, make the sound bassier and less high end.
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Post by Azazello »

davestp1 wrote:Not to pour water on your parade, but would'nt a thicker mat change the vertical tracking angle of the tonearm/cartridge combo?

Of course it does! Not to the extent that it absolutely needs adjustment though, I changed mat the other week, and the thinner one was considerably better although it changed the angle of the tone-arm way beyond the level of it's adjustment (I tend to prefer a slightly steeper angle then Fredrik so I was actually quite happy about this, since he always have the final word on my LP12 :D ).
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Post by Charlie1 »

Vinyl differs in thickness too.
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Post by lejonklou »

You're right, Dave. And I have adjusted the VTA when comparing mats. When going from the thickest to the thinnest mats, it becomes really necessary.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

So, I should wait until my Sondek needs maintenance or upgraded before changing the felt mat. Based on the necessary adjustments...?
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Post by ThomasOK »

Fredrik is spot on that it is not just the thickness but also the composition of the mats that has an effect. I have also found that felt mats from Rega and ProJect do not sound as good as those from Linn when used on an LP12.

I don't think it would be necessary to wait until you have a service before you change the mat - it isn't that much thinner than the older mats (although it depends on how much older). Also, as Charlie points out, record thickness variations can make up about as much difference. I think even without a reset you will notice the improvement, but when you do have a reset of the table the arm should be adjusted slightly to compensate.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Thomas, at what year's did Linn change their felt mats. and by how much were they changed?
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Post by ThomasOK »

Tony Tune-age wrote:Thomas, at what year's did Linn change their felt mats. and by how much were they changed?
I'm not sure exactly when the most recent change was - I believe a few years ago. The mat has actually changed at least a few times but the most recent change is noticeably thinner than previous mats. Not quite half as thick, probably more like two-thirds as thick. Early mats form the 70s and 80s were even thicker so it has changed a fair bit over time.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Although not a brand new felt mat, mine isn't as thick as the 1970's and 1980's mat, since it was made around the middle 1990's time frame. But perhaps at some point I'll purchase a newer Linn felt mat. Thanks for the historical information Thomas.
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Post by lejonklou »

Try one, Tony!

It's a veery cost effective upgrade.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

I'll order a new Linn felt mat, the next time my Sondek is maintenanced or upgraded. Both you and Thomas have suggested that affordable upgrade - and it will be interesting to hear the difference.
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Post by ThomasOK »

It is indeed true that the mats from the 70s and 80s were thicker yet than those from the mid-90s. My LP12 is from 1997 and the newer felt mat is yet thinner and better than the one that came with the table.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Thanks Tom, the newer felt mat will be my next improvement.
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Post by Efraim roots »

Lejonklou wrote:
All Linn arms fit the Keel.
On the Linn website it says that Keel are available in different versions for Ekos and Ekos SE. What is the difference?
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

I think the Keel can ordered for various Linn tonearms such as; the Ittok, Ekos and Ekos SE, which will be the same type of Keel. Or the Keel can be ordered for the Naim tonearm, which is a different version.

Perhaps Thomas knows for sure... :?:
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Post by ThomasOK »

There is only one Keel for Linn tonearms which will fit any Linn arm except the early Ittoks with the thinner post. The post size and pivot to stylus distance is the same for Linn arms from the Ittok (except as noted) and Basiks to the Ekos and Ekos SE so there is no need for multiple Keels. With the Ittok (except the LVIII/2) you would have to drill an additional hole in the Keel to use the original arm rest. There is a place on the armboard area already designed to allow you to drill through in the proper place. I suspect most people would rather figure out an alternate method of holding the arm in place rather than drilling a hole in their lovely Keel. :)

There has been a Keel for the Aro but it is more of a special order item. Linn will only make them when they have enough orders to make a significant batch at once (I think about 20 or 25).
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

Thomas, if an extra hole is drilled into the Keel (for the particular type of Ittok tonearm you mentioned), does it have an impact on the sonic performance, especially if they switch to an Ekos tonearm later?
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Post by ThomasOK »

I would expect it to have no effect as Linn made the armboard fairly thin in this area so very little metal would have to be removed. Obviously the only way to know for sure would be to listen to two identical tables, one with and one without the hole. The likeliness of this ever actually being done are minimal even without acknowledging the near impossibility of getting two identical LP12s.

The bigger question for most potential customers is whether they want to deal with something like a plastic cap covering the hole in their beautiful Keel when they upgrade the arm.
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