What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by markiteight »

Hi folks, I'm really enjoying this topic! In fact, I'll likely split it off into its own thread since it's long since strayed away from the original subject. There's some great discussion going on here but some of the posts are running afoul of the spirit of this form, which is "one of curiosity, respect and friendly, productive participation. We are exploring a fascinating field where science meets art and there are many things we are capable of perceiving which we still don't know the mechanisms behind." (from the Forum Rules)

There are some legitimate questions being asked which have been met with aggression and animosity, but not legitimately answered. Please remember that the members here are genuinely curious and eager to learn. They're not trying to burst your bubble or delegitimize your argument. Please treat them with the same respect.

Thanks for your time, and I hope this discussion keeps going!

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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by lindsayt »

Defender wrote: 2023-04-25 18:02 I think this became a more theoretical discussion which is good for sharing some experiences but is maybe the not so perfect approach in a forum where we speak about musicality … especially when non of us has heard the 360‘s live.
I might take the chance to hear them at the High End in Munich to have a better opinion of what they can do.
How many low efficiency slimline speakers does one need to listen to before writing them off as a genre capable of the very highest levels of musicality?
Charlie1 wrote: 2023-04-25 17:45 This seems like a slightly strange discussion to me. I get that bigger drive units are more efficient. And obviously smaller drive units enable narrower width speaker enclosures. But I've never read of any direct relationship between musicality and drive unit size.
I have. I've read loads on this. I've also had it backed up through various auditions. These red and black speakers are a prime example of musicality through high efficiency 18" woofers:
Image
Spannko wrote: 2023-04-25 19:39 Do you mind me asking how far you’ve got with your experimenting?
I've started construction of the bass bins for the 18" woofers. It's one of those projects where I do a little bit now and again.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by markiteight »

I agree that the minimum baffle solution might be suspect. This is pure speculation, but I get the impression that the slimline concept came about because it does things that are sonically impressive, like give the illusion of a "wide/deep soundstage with precise image placement" and it's easier to make them "disappear in the room"...all the things reviewers love to gush over but are musically invalid. Tall/narrow speakers also integrate visually into a space much more easily than giant, wide behemoths, so they sell better. I wouldn't be surprised if many loudspeaker manufacturers over emphasize the former in order to legitimize the latter.

My own theory, again based purely on speculation, is that baffle size and shape, and the drivers' positions on that baffle play a significant role in a loudspeaker's performance and that considerable time should be dedicated to finding that optimum combination. I also suspect that the optimum will be different for every design and there isn't just one ideal. The tune method has demonstrated over and over again that it is rarely possible to establish axioms that are universally true. Just because capacitor A is the optimum choice for one circuit doesn't mean it will always be the best choice in all applications. That K400 performs best at 248cm doesn't mean that's the optimum length for all speaker cables (or indeed any other cables).

I also theorize that in order to create a musically excellent loudspeaker it must be treated as a complete system where each and every component affects, and is affected by, all the other components of that system. I feel like the vast majority of speaker designs strive to isolate all the components from each other, both physically and electrically, and the result is more often than not musically ambiguous. Creating a system where everything interacts and integrates in a musically optimum way could result in something truly excellent.

We just have to remember that the loudspeaker is the least important part of a music reproduction system. However, being the least important doesn't mean it isn't important! Assuming the speaker is receiving a musically good signal, a loudspeaker's only job is to be as faithful to that signal as it can be. So...what does that look like? It sounds like there are at least a couple people on this form exploring that question on their own. I wish I had the resources to join you. Finding the answers sounds like fun!
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Charlie1 »

lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-25 21:02
Charlie1 wrote: 2023-04-25 17:45 This seems like a slightly strange discussion to me. I get that bigger drive units are more efficient. And obviously smaller drive units enable narrower width speaker enclosures. But I've never read of any direct relationship between musicality and drive unit size.
I have. I've read loads on this. I've also had it backed up through various auditions. These red and black speakers are a prime example of musicality through high efficiency 18" woofers:
I love Kans which have tiny drive units. I've thoroughly enjoyed 242s many times as well and they are the sort of speaker you dislike. I've yet to hear any make of speaker I prefer to Linn but I'm open to that, with or without 18" woofers.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by lindsayt »

Charlie1 wrote: 2023-04-25 22:16 I love Kans which have tiny drive units. I've thoroughly enjoyed 242s many times as well and they are the sort of speaker you dislike. I've yet to hear any make of speaker I prefer to Linn but I'm open to that, with or without 18" woofers.
I hate Kans! They are too transistor radioey for me. I can tolerate deviations from a flat frequency response, as I think there are other aspects to the sound that are far more important. But when a speaker pretty much filters out entire instruments - as the Kans do - then that's too much and they fail one of my basic tests for tunefulness. How can bass drums be tuneful when they're not there when they should be? Because they've been buried in the mix by the speakers.

markiteight wrote: 2023-04-25 21:52 I agree that the minimum baffle solution might be suspect. This is pure speculation, but I get the impression that the slimline concept came about because it does things that are sonically impressive, like give the illusion of a "wide/deep soundstage with precise image placement" and it's easier to make them "disappear in the room"...all the things reviewers love to gush over but are musically invalid. Tall/narrow speakers also integrate visually into a space much more easily than giant, wide behemoths, so they sell better. I wouldn't be surprised if many loudspeaker manufacturers over emphasize the former in order to legitimize the latter.

My own theory, again based purely on speculation, is that baffle size and shape, and the drivers' positions on that baffle play a significant role in a loudspeaker's performance and that considerable time should be dedicated to finding that optimum combination. I also suspect that the optimum will be different for every design and there isn't just one ideal. The tune method has demonstrated over and over again that it is rarely possible to establish axioms that are universally true. Just because capacitor A is the optimum choice for one circuit doesn't mean it will always be the best choice in all applications. That K400 performs best at 248cm doesn't mean that's the optimum length for all speaker cables (or indeed any other cables).

I also theorize that in order to create a musically excellent loudspeaker it must be treated as a complete system where each and every component affects, and is affected by, all the other components of that system. I feel like the vast majority of speaker designs strive to isolate all the components from each other, both physically and electrically, and the result is more often than not musically ambiguous. Creating a system where everything interacts and integrates in a musically optimum way could result in something truly excellent.

We just have to remember that the loudspeaker is the least important part of a music reproduction system. However, being the least important doesn't mean it isn't important! Assuming the speaker is receiving a musically good signal, a loudspeaker's only job is to be as faithful to that signal as it can be. So...what does that look like? It sounds like there are at least a couple people on this form exploring that question on their own. I wish I had the resources to join you. Finding the answers sounds like fun!
Great post.

My current thoughts are that I place a lot of emphasis on the drivers in a speaker. They are transducers. They have a challenging job to do. And then it's down to the cabinet and the crossover not letting the side down and not getting in the way of the drivers doing their job.

The other transducer in a vinyl system is the cartridge. I think it's interesting to look at parallels between the cartridge and the speaker drivers.

Would we all agree that a moving coil (MC) cartridge playing a 12" single is more likely to give a more musical performance than a moving magnet (MM) cartridge playing an LP?
My speculation as to why that is is because the MC has less moving mass on the cantilver than the MM. And the 12" single has more area passing under the stylus per second, which means that low level details are physically larger on the single and there's more potential mechanical force on the cartridge for dynamic transients (without the tip jumping off the groove).

Low moving mass and greater force for the moving mass appear to be very solid principles for transducers in hi-fi systems.
As long as the mass doesn't get so low that the transducer breaks, or that rigidity is compromised.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Charlie1 »

lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-27 11:59 Would we all agree that a moving coil (MC) cartridge playing a 12" single is more likely to give a more musical performance than a moving magnet (MM) cartridge playing an LP?
Well, certainly not that 45rpm 12" singles are (generally) more musically engaging than 33rpm LPs because I usually find the opposite, although I obviously appreciate the common sonic benefits of a 12" (better bass, more open top end, etc.). Jury is out on 33rpm 12" singles as I'm not sure I have any to compare to LP - 33rpm 12" singles were much more common in the US than the UK.

MM vs MC gonna come down to specific products for me.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Spannko »

lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-27 11:59
Would we all agree that a moving coil (MC) cartridge playing a 12" single is more likely to give a more musical performance than a moving magnet (MM) cartridge playing an LP?
No. Never! Broad generalisations are extremely unhelpful lindsayt. Not all mc cart’s are more musical than mm’s, and not all mm cart’s are more musical than mc’s. The only thing we can be sure of is that some mc’s are more musical than some mm’s and some mm’s are more musical than some mc’s!
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Tendaberry »

lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-27 11:59 I hate Kans! They are too transistor radioey for me.
May I ask which source and amps were used in front of the Kans? They are quite sensitive there and reveal lesser sources ruthlessly. With a top-LP12 from that time, Kairn pre-amp and 2 x Klouts, they sounded all but anemic and certainly not transistor radioey at all.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by markiteight »

Spannko wrote: 2023-04-27 16:52
lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-27 11:59
Would we all agree that a moving coil (MC) cartridge playing a 12" single is more likely to give a more musical performance than a moving magnet (MM) cartridge playing an LP?
No. Never! Broad generalisations are extremely unhelpful lindsayt. Not all mc cart’s are more musical than mm’s, and not all mm cart’s are more musical than mc’s. The only thing we can be sure of is that some mc’s are more musical than some mm’s and some mm’s are more musical than some mc’s!
I think we need to pay careful attention to the wording here (hence the added emphasis to lindsayt's post above). Is an MC more likely to outperform an MM? Given the current state of the art, I think there's some truth to that statement. At their best the MM can be very good, but the best MC's are better (and there's considerable overlap between the two). Does that mean MC is the superior technology? I'm not sure we can answer that as I suspect nobody has attempted to take MM technology to its ultimate musical potential. Side note: has anyone given higher power/lower mass magnetics like AlNiCo or Neodymium a go in an MM design, or do they all stick to Ferrite 'cause it's cheap? Both AlNiCo and Neodymium would play to your theory of lower mass/greater force improving performance. Perhaps, if given a fair chance, other aspects of MM such as its higher output (and its subsequent need for much less gain) might make it the superior technology...if properly implemented.

I find it curious that, after inventing the Moving Coil, Grado spent the next several decades selling exclusively MM carts. I wonder why...
lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-27 11:59
Great post.

My current thoughts are that I place a lot of emphasis on the drivers in a speaker. They are transducers. They have a challenging job to do. And then it's down to the cabinet and the crossover not letting the side down and not getting in the way of the drivers doing their job.

The other transducer in a vinyl system is the cartridge. I think it's interesting to look at parallels between the cartridge and the speaker drivers.
It's interesting how many parallels can be drawn between an analog front end and a loudspeaker, despite the fact that the tasks they perform are fundamentally opposite! The cartridge has the arduous task of creating the signal, but the loudspeaker has to convert that signal into something we humans can interface with. In both cases the transducer operates in a closed loop system and it's a bit of a challenge to figure out where that loop starts. As far as the record player is concerned, we have that figured out, but what about a loudspeaker? What is the foundation upon which the rest of the system is built? Perhaps (again based purely on speculation) we should look to the record player hierarchy for guidance. The transducer (cartridge) can only perform to its best potential if the rest of the system lets it, therefore the cartridge is actually the least important part of the system. Likewise in a loudspeaker I expect the driver(s) can only perform their best if the supporting mechanical and electrical aspects of the system let them. I postulate that the loudspeaker's hierarchy looks something like Enclosure > Crossover > Driver(s), for a passive system. For an active system it's probably more like Crossover > Enclosure > Drivers as the crossover resides further up the signal path.

But it's not like you can design a loudspeaker by starting at the foundation and working your way up. It's a closed loop system, and as such it would be impossible to design the enclosure, develop the crossover, and then pick the drivers! So I get your inclination to put a lot of emphasis on the drivers. After all, that's where the design process needs to start. But I would suggest approaching the statement, "not letting the side down and not getting in the way of the drivers doing their job" with caution. I suspect that a lot of manufacturers focus on that philosophy a bit to much, and the result is a market saturated with speakers with thick, heavily braced enclosures built from high density, high mass material that, while good at damping unwanted resonances, also damps the music. My theory is that a better approach would be to turn those unwanted resonances into wanted resonances through careful tuning. Let the thing vibrate, just make it vibrate in a way that's conducive to the music.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2023-04-24 19:27 It’s worth pointing out that absolutely not one of the T&S parameters have even the slightest influence on a speakers ability to play a tune.

And while I’m at it, frequency response, THD, waterfalls and any other measurement you care to mention, have absolutely no relationship with a speakers tune playing ability.

And don’t get me started on “audiophile” crossover components!
Do you have any evidence for this statement or can you simply not equate musicality to measurements Spannko .
I know that tune
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by ThomasOK »

markiteight, interesting that you mention Grado for a few reasons. First they didn't actually invent the moving coil phono cartridge, I think that was Ortofon, but they did invent and patent the Stereo moving coil cartridge and an interview I read said that Ortofon did pay Grado royalties on the design. Second is that they technically don't make MM cartridges but instead what they call a flux-bridger. This is similar to the moving iron or induced magnet system that was used by several others like B&O, ADC, Sonus and is still used by Soundsmith. In these systems both the magnets and the coils are in the cartridge body and the stylus only moves a lightweight piece of iron that transfers (bridges) the magnetism to the coils. Grado feels this gives them the best of both worlds in that they can have low moving mass, similar to an MC yet with high output that will feed a normal MM stage. They also make their stylus similar to an MC stylus with the pivot point at the back and the damper and iron piece near to it, but it can still be a removable stylus (though the higher end Grados have fixed styli). The third thing is that they actually have put a lot of design work into high-end MI (moving iron) cartridges. Within the last few years they have expanded those upwards with the Epoch3 at $12,000 and the Aeon3 at $6000. They call them the Lineage series and have also put the Statement3 at $3500 into that group, although it has been around for some time at around the $2500 price initially. I haven't heard any of them but there is also an intrinsic problem with them. Grado decided that even though they are flux bridgers that they are more musical with a lower output. For some reason they decided to put that output at 1.0mv - too high for most MC phono stages, certainly Lejonklou ones, (and also not optimum with typical MC loading) but not high enough for most MM phono stages. A very questionable decision in my opinion and one that certainly limits the market for those cartridges. But I do believe they received good reviews overall.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Spannko »

What makes a loudspeaker musical?

Drive units definitely have their own innate musicality. For example, one of the reasons Kans and Isobarik’s worked so well is because the B110 is a very musical bass/mid unit. However, a drivers musicality can be tempered if it’s not loaded correctly (acoustically) by the enclosure.

In addition to loading the bass unit acoustically, the enclosure has the potential to obscure the musicality of the drive unit due to how it’s constructed. I’ve built about half a dozen enclosures of varying shapes and wall thicknesses (with the same internal volume) and they all sound different from one another, particularly from a musical perspective. At this moment in time I wouldn’t like to speculate on the exact reasons why. I’ve just built three additional enclosures which are identical to my current favourite, with the exception that the wall thicknesses vary. After listening to them, things might be a bit clearer.

Crossover components and circuit topology also has a very big effect on a loudspeaker’s musicality.

If there’s a hierarchy, I’d probably put crossover first, followed by drivers, then enclosure, simply because of source first theory. Get the x/o wrong and it doesn’t matter how good the drivers and enclosure are, it’ll never sound musical. However, a so-so driver can’t be compensated for by a good x/o either. Everything is important, so I’d guess at something like x/o (41%), drivers (39%) and enclosure (20%). This may change as I learn more.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Spannko »

Lego wrote: 2023-04-27 21:35
Spannko wrote: 2023-04-24 19:27 It’s worth pointing out that absolutely not one of the T&S parameters have even the slightest influence on a speakers ability to play a tune.

And while I’m at it, frequency response, THD, waterfalls and any other measurement you care to mention, have absolutely no relationship with a speakers tune playing ability.

And don’t get me started on “audiophile” crossover components!
Do you have any evidence for this statement or can you simply not equate musicality to measurements Spannko .
Good question Lego! Strictly speaking, all of the T&S parameters have the potential to affect a drive units musicality. This is something which is determined at the drive unit design stage, more for enclosure matching options than musicality. What I meant to say was it’s not possible to predict how musical a complete loudspeaker will be by looking at the T@S parameters, frequency response, THD, waterfalls etc.
Last edited by Spannko on 2023-04-28 06:56, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Spannko »

What makes a loudspeaker musical? Simple. Lejonklou electronics!
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by lindsayt »

I've heard Kans with a variety of sources and amplification over the years, starting with LP12, Ittok, Asak, Naim 32.5, 250.

If a source and amplifier sound bad with one pair of speakers whilst sounding good with another, is that the fault of the source and amplification, or a fault with the speakers?

Crossovers. There's a school of thought, that makes sense to me, that no crossover is the best crossover, if you can get away with no crossover. And that a first order crossover is the next best after that. It's the less is more approach to crossovers. Some sets of drivers lend themselves better to no crossover or a first order crossover than others.

Extremely musical passive crossovers can be made for relatively affordable amounts of money. With a proviso. If you have a low frequency crossover point, eg in a 4 way speaker, the passive crossover can start to become annoyingly expensive. EG to crossover drivers at 150 hz, you're looking at a huge inductor and an extremely high value (set of) capacitor(s).

I found it interesting that Wharfedale's £5000 Dovedale speakers use an iron core inductor. It would be an interesting modification to try an air core inductor instead, which would probably involve taking the crossover out of the cabinet.

I don't agree that a speaker with vibrating walls would be more musical if they were vibrating in a musical way. Such vibrations would be the speakers replaying the music how the speaker cabinets wanted to and not how the musicians actually played their instruments. If the recording somehow subtracted the sound of the body of the violin, then yes, you would want a speaker that resonated like a violin. But that's not the case.
My personal thought is that the energy from the drivers is best dealt with via coupling. IE transfered into the cabinet walls and bracing and then into the floor. With there being parallels to the vinyl source again. The energy that the cartridge feeds into the arm is best dealt with via coupling. Passing the through the arm tube, through the arm bearings into the armboard and (sub)chassis from there.
High mass and spikes are a good way to couple speakers to the floor.

If a speaker needs some liveliness from the cabinet in order to sound alive and not dead, then I'd be looking at the driver choice. Does the speaker use drivers with relatively high moving mass for the electromotive force on offer?

I personally think that it's really difficult to get the highest levels of tuneful bass with ported cabinets. Sealed boxes can, in my experience offer tuneful bass. So yes, I'd be happy to put the cabinets higher in the hierachy than the drivers. However some woofers lend themselves more to ported cabinets and some more to sealed cabinets. So that woofer choice is vital to getting the most tuneful cabinet in the bass region.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Spannko »

lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-28 03:09
If a source and amplifier sound bad with one pair of speakers whilst sounding good with another, is that the fault of the source and amplification, or a fault with the speakers?
I’m not sure tbh. Personally, I’d like to think that a genuinely good loudspeaker should sound good with all sources, but to elevate the performance from good to excellent could require an element of “systems” design, where all components are optimised to work with each other symbiotically.
lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-28 03:09
Crossovers. There's a school of thought, that makes sense to me, that no crossover is the best crossover, if you can get away with no crossover. And that a first order crossover is the next best after that. It's the less is more approach to crossovers. Some sets of drivers lend themselves better to no crossover or a first order crossover than others.
Yes, this certainly makes sense, but no one has ever managed to design a good loudspeaker without a crossover. It seems that unfiltered driver resonance is more harmful to the music than the effect of a well designed crossover. Who knows, with advancements in driver technology, one day this may be possible
lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-28 03:09 I don't agree that a speaker with vibrating walls would be more musical if they were vibrating in a musical way.
Unfortunately, the alternative is having a loudspeaker with walls vibrating in an unmusical way! The BBC thought that if it was possible to get enclosure vibrations roughly 30dB below the driver output they shouldn’t be audible. They discovered that increasing wall thickness made enclosure vibrations more audible, hence their damped thin wall approach. However, the BBC didn’t evaluate the effect of enclosure mass on a speakers tune playing ability, so for our purposes their research is only something to be kept in mind and not necessarily followed.
lindsayt wrote: 2023-04-28 03:09
I personally think that it's really difficult to get the highest levels of tuneful bass with ported cabinets. Sealed boxes can, in my experience offer tuneful bass. So yes, I'd be happy to put the cabinets higher in the hierachy than the drivers.
This is my experience too, but cabinets higher in the hierarchy than drivers? Personally, I see a cabinet as being the support act, not the leading lady!
Last edited by Spannko on 2023-04-28 14:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote: 2023-04-28 06:52 Yes, this certainly makes sense, but no one has ever managed to design a good loudspeaker without a crossover. It seems that unfiltered driver resonance is more harmful to the music than the effect of a well designed crossover. Who knows, with advancements in driver technology, one day this may be possible
Don't know if you recall but I home dem'd a pair of speakers with Mark Audio drive unit so no crossover. Certainly not very engaging to my ears.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Spannko »

I don’t remember you trying the MA’s charlie1. Good to know though.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2023-04-27 23:56
Lego wrote: 2023-04-27 21:35
Spannko wrote: 2023-04-24 19:27 It’s worth pointing out that absolutely not one of the T&S parameters have even the slightest influence on a speakers ability to play a tune.

And while I’m at it, frequency response, THD, waterfalls and any other measurement you care to mention, have absolutely no relationship with a speakers tune playing ability.

And don’t get me started on “audiophile” crossover components!
Do you have any evidence for this statement or can you simply not equate musicality to measurements Spannko .
Good question Lego! Strictly speaking, all of the T&S parameters have the potential to affect a drive units musicality. This is something which is determined at the drive unit design stage, more for enclosure matching options than musicality. What I meant to say was it’s not possible to predict how musical a complete loudspeaker will be by looking at the T@S parameters, frequency response, THD, waterfalls etc.
No Spannko but you'd be be able to tell how it would respond to the transients in the music looking at the
waterfalls.
Obviously it's the source that has the biggest influence on the musicality and the speakers are just there to be as faithful to the source as possible.

I asked Glenn Chapman owner of Soho Sound
Company why his headphones sound so musical compared to other BT headphones ,and he said they
simply use higher quality drivers within the earpiece?So is this the headphones that are musical or are they allowing me to easily hear the musicality of Spotify?
Thanks for the heads-up 😄
I know that tune
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Diogenes »

andy2 wrote: 2023-04-24 19:02 Let’s take a look at that statement:

cut

The linear X-max of the Seas is 28mm and the BMS is at 24mm.

Cut

a2
I believe the actual one way Xmax is half of the numbers you give. Of course, the conclusion does not change for the mid range.
Last edited by Diogenes on 2023-04-28 20:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Spannko »

Lego wrote: 2023-04-28 17:04
Spannko wrote: 2023-04-27 23:56
Lego wrote: 2023-04-27 21:35
Do you have any evidence for this statement or can you simply not equate musicality to measurements Spannko .
Good question Lego! Strictly speaking, all of the T&S parameters have the potential to affect a drive units musicality. This is something which is determined at the drive unit design stage, more for enclosure matching options than musicality. What I meant to say was it’s not possible to predict how musical a complete loudspeaker will be by looking at the T@S parameters, frequency response, THD, waterfalls etc.
No Spannko but you'd be be able to tell how it would respond to the transients in the music looking at the
waterfalls.
Obviously it's the source that has the biggest influence on the musicality and the speakers are just there to be as faithful to the source as possible.

I asked Glenn Chapman owner of Soho Sound
Company why his headphones sound so musical compared to other BT headphones ,and he said they
simply use higher quality drivers within the earpiece?So is this the headphones that are musical or are they allowing me to easily hear the musicality of Spotify?
Thanks for the heads-up 😄
The ability to tell how well a loudspeaker responds to transients by looking at waterfall is not something I’ve come across. Can you explain a bit more about this Lego please?

I didn’t know that about the Soho headphones, but tbh it doesn’t surprise me. As for what’s doing what, I’d say both. Spotify is musical and the Soho’s are musical enough to allow you to hear it!
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2023-04-28 20:30
Lego wrote: 2023-04-28 17:04
Spannko wrote: 2023-04-27 23:56
Good question Lego! Strictly speaking, all of the T&S parameters have the potential to affect a drive units musicality. This is something which is determined at the drive unit design stage, more for enclosure matching options than musicality. What I meant to say was it’s not possible to predict how musical a complete loudspeaker will be by looking at the T@S parameters, frequency response, THD, waterfalls etc.
No Spannko but you'd be be able to tell how it would respond to the transients in the music looking at the
waterfalls.
Obviously it's the source that has the biggest influence on the musicality and the speakers are just there to be as faithful to the source as possible.

I asked Glenn Chapman owner of Soho Sound
Company why his headphones sound so musical compared to other BT headphones ,and he said they
simply use higher quality drivers within the earpiece?So is this the headphones that are musical or are they allowing me to easily hear the musicality of Spotify?
Thanks for the heads-up 😄
I didn’t know that about the Soho headphones, but tbh it doesn’t surprise me. As for what’s doing what, I’d say both. Spotify is musical and the Soho’s are musical enough to allow you to hear it!
That's a very interesting hypothesis Spannko.

So let me get this right .In order to detect musicality in the source the speaker has to be musical.

Could you hypothesis what happens when the source is not musical but the speaker is very musical and the speaker is not musical but the source is extremely musical ?

How does one tell if it's the speaker that's musical rather than the source and vice versa ?
I know that tune
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2023-04-28 20:30
Lego wrote: 2023-04-28 17:04
Spannko wrote: 2023-04-27 23:56
Good question Lego! Strictly speaking, all of the T&S parameters have the potential to affect a drive units musicality. This is something which is determined at the drive unit design stage, more for enclosure matching options than musicality. What I meant to say was it’s not possible to predict how musical a complete loudspeaker will be by looking at the T@S parameters, frequency response, THD, waterfalls etc.
No Spannko but you'd be be able to tell how it would respond to the transients in the music looking at the
waterfalls.
Obviously it's the source that has the biggest influence on the musicality and the speakers are just there to be as faithful to the source as possible.

I asked Glenn Chapman owner of Soho Sound
Company why his headphones sound so musical compared to other BT headphones ,and he said they
simply use higher quality drivers within the earpiece?So is this the headphones that are musical or are they allowing me to easily hear the musicality of Spotify?
Thanks for the heads-up 😄
The ability to tell how well a loudspeaker responds to transients by looking at waterfall is not something I’ve come across. Can you explain a bit more about this Lego please?
I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic question or not Spannko as what I am talking about is one of the main purposes of the waterfall measurement .It's how a speaker handles short sharp tones.My bad, I presumed the fact you gave waterfalls as an example that you had came across them .Please expand your insight .
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Lego »

I decided to ask the bot for an explanation.Not sure how accurate it is

ChatGPT
"The main point of a waterfall measurement is to provide a visual representation of the decay of sound over time at different frequencies. This information is important in understanding how a loudspeaker or a room responds to different types of sound signals, particularly those with fast rise times, such as transients.

A waterfall measurement is created by taking a series of frequency response measurements over time, usually using a swept sine wave or other similar signal, and then plotting the results as a three-dimensional graph. The x-axis represents time, the y-axis represents frequency, and the z-axis represents the amplitude of the sound at each frequency and time.

By looking at the graph, it's possible to see how quickly the sound decays at each frequency, and whether there are any areas where the sound lingers or resonates for longer than it should. This information can be useful in optimizing the performance of a loudspeaker or identifying problem areas in a room's acoustics.

In summary, the main point of a waterfall measurement is to provide a visual representation of how sound decays over time at different frequencies, which can help in optimizing the performance of a loudspeaker or identifying problem areas in a room's acoustics."
I know that tune
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Re: What Makes a Loudspeaker Musical?

Post by Charlie1 »

Welcome LinnGary

You're right in the thick of it already!
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