Video about 10 iconic turntables.

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Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Whatsmynaim »

Some of us might not agree with its conclusion but It's quite interesting either way.
https://youtu.be/VCAhllcc_Ew
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by John »

Enjoyed that, thank you for sharing. I can think of someone who posts here that would enjoy that reveal.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by ThomasOK »

Yes, I'm sure he will. I did enjoy the video although it has to be taken for what it is - not necessarily a listing of good turntables, nor a list from best to worst, but a list the author thinks are important or iconic turntables. It is interesting that he freely admits to not having had personal experience with some of these so in those cases it is based more on popularity, acclaim or his understanding of the place in history of the table. I would have to argue that the Brinkman doesn't belong on that list as it is too new to deserve the descriptor iconic. Also unless he heard it and found it to be extraordinary, which doesn't appear to be the case, there is no real reason for it to be in the list. All the others I can go along with for mostly the reasons he gave and I have had my hands on all of them.

There are a couple of things I would disagree with him on, one being calling the Garrard 301 the most iconic turntable. While it was certainly a popular and influential turntable, the Linn Sondek LP12 (which was indeed called that from the beginning) would have to wear that crown. If for no other reason than that it will soon be celebrating its 50th anniversary, making it the Hi-Fi product with the longest continuous production (the Klipschorn is older but was out of production for a number of years before being reintroduced). The LP12 is still at the top of the turntable game having influenced many designs that followed (though obviously being influenced by the AR XA) while having continuously evolved. It has sold well over 100,000 units, which may not be much compared to mass market turntables like the Technics 1200s, but is certainly quite an achievement for a high end product. (I did also find it odd that he mentioned the influence of the AR XA on the LP12 but somehow failed to notice it on the Thorens TD160!)

Also he didn't really try to do much comparison of sound but did underestimate a table or two. A properly cleaned and lubed AR XA or XB is musically very close to a Rega Planar 3 of a few years back. A Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference turntable is right up there musically with the RP3 when it has been properly rebuilt. I have rebuilt a few of each and found they were more musical than I had expected. For me to compare them to a Rega 3 of recent vintage is high praise as I have found few turntables that claimed to be "better than an LP12" that are actually as musical as the Rega 3. That includes TD124s, SL1200s, Thorens TD160 series and numerous others.

The current Rega Planar 10 I don't have any experience with as we haven't sold any yet. I did get a listen to the predecessor, the RP10 and I would still choose the original Majik LP12 over it. But there are many changes to the new P10 so who knows?

Again an interesting video and a fun watch. I was glad to see that it included truly iconic turntables like the Transcriptors, AR, 301, etc. and equally that it left out the massive monstrosities that mainly have bling and appeal to Oligarchs on their side.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by tpetsch »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-11-30 18:58
The current Rega Planar 10 I don't have any experience with as we haven't sold any yet. I did get a listen to the predecessor, the RP10 and I would still choose the original Majik LP12 over it. But there are many changes to the new P10 so who knows?
You say "The current Rega Planar 10 I don't have any experience with as we haven't sold any yet. " I didn't know you are a Rega dealer Thomas, yet I gather from this you don't demo P10's at the shop, correct? Nevertheless, it's not a stretch to conclude why you're not selling any P10's if you don't demo or stock them, and especially when one of the guys doing the potential selling goes by the handle "LP12 whisperer" & hints in passing things like "I did get a listen to the predecessor, the RP10 and I would still choose the original Majik LP12 over it."

But I get it, I worked for a Linn dealer once too and of course we would always push the LP12 as the potential to get that customer back into the shop to spend some more money after the sale was made was greater due to the upgrade path. And I'm not knocking the LP12, their fine decks, I personally owned several over the past 30+ years and FWIW I don't work for any dealers anymore, I just enjoy the music these days so I have no skin in the game.

But you really should take the time to listen to a P10, give one just 10% of the time you take whispering/tweaking one of your own LP12's into your personal system and spend that time whispering to a P10 instead, Listen to it for a few weeks, give it the benefit of the doubt it deserves, you just might like what it has to say back.

The video was part 1 of 3, curious to see where this all goes in parts 2 & 3.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by beck »

Thank you for the video Whatsmyname! :-)

Regarding the turntable discussion we are indeed spoiled with choices. Take your pick and enjoy your vinyl collection. With vinyl it is quite easy to get lovely music out of ones system. Having listened to both Rega and Linn in the past I ended in the Linn camp having owned a Linn Basik, Linn Axis and a Linn Sondek LP12. I have enjoyed the ride and it has given me endless hours of music.

I have now found my little music heaven using a £300 (when new long ago) NAD cd player…………..! If you had told me that 10 years ago I would have shaken my head in disbelief. :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by John »

I wonder if any Linn dealers that also carry Rega have a P10 on hand to compare with an LP12.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by ThomasOK »

The store I work for is indeed also a Rega dealer and has been one since we opened. We sell more Regas than any other turntable, although since we only sell Linn, Rega and one model from U-Turn Audio as an entry level piece that shouldn't surprise anyone. I consider the current Planar 3 and Planar 6 as two of the best value for money products on the market, along with the io Integrated Amp which I wrote up here some time ago. (Note I also consider the Majik LP12 in that league.)

I whisper just as thoroughly to the Regas I setup, which are the majority of those that go through the store whether or not I was the salesperson. Of course, there aren't as many things to adjust on a Rega since it has no spring suspension and fewer parts. But there are still precise torques for the cartridge mount, arm mount, bearing cap on dynamically balanced arms and sometimes motor mount screws. All these get adjusted properly, mats get marked for proper side up and tracking and anti-skating are adjusted by ear (although the built in markings on the dynamically balanced arms are generally correct). People who worked for the US Distributor at the time tried the torques I provided for the RP10 and found there was indeed a musical improvement.

You are correct that we do not have a Planar 10 on demo. We did borrow an RP10 and I did a writeup on the old Linn forum which did not please everyone. The customers who asked us to get it in did not end up buying one and it went back. We also don't have a current Planar 8 on display as it is very close in price to the Majik LP12 which we feel is the superior table musically - not because of the possibility of add-ons, that is not the way we, and especially I, work. We have sold a Planar 8 or two to people who specifically wanted one and I have set them up and heard them. We used to demo and sell a few more of the RP8s but the price difference was larger then.

I would love to have a chance to spend some time with a Planar 10, not to mention a Naiad, but I'm not sure the distributor wants to loan us one. If they did I would at least have to agree not to publish my findings unless they favored the Rega. But I have hinted to our rep that it would be fun to get my hands on one a couple of times and we'll just have to see if I get the chance.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lindsayt »

That's a video made by Harley Lovegrove of Pearl Acoustics.

They make single driver speakers. Interesting speakers with the oak cabinets. Not quite my cup of tea, but I can understand why some customers would like them. At 4500 euros excluding tax and shipping, I'd be wondering, why not make your own version of the Pearl Acoustics Sibelius speakers? Or get a cabinet maker to make the cabinets for you and drop in the full range driver of your choice.

His choice of most iconic turntable? Wasn't that the turntable that he's got?
Seems to be more an exercise in human psychology than in what is the most iconic turntable?

And besides, most iconic is all very well. But for the personal buyer, surely it makes sense to buy the best tool (set of tools) for the job of listening to your vinyl for the least amount of money?

BTW the Altec 604 would have good grounds for claiming the title of "the Hi-Fi product with the longest continuous production". With it being in production since 1944 - albeit with modifications over the years.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by John »

If I had spent some time with a P10 and found it less musical than a Basik LP12 I certainly would not have one in my store taking up space physically and financially. If it was indeed better it would certainly throw a wrench into the business model of honestly selling Linn LP12’s and upgrades depending how the P10 competed as you moved up the LP12 hierarchy.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by ThomasOK »

lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-01 19:00 That's a video made by Harley Lovegrove of Pearl Acoustics.

They make single driver speakers. Interesting speakers with the oak cabinets. Not quite my cup of tea, but I can understand why some customers would like them. At 4500 euros excluding tax and shipping, I'd be wondering, why not make your own version of the Pearl Acoustics Sibelius speakers? Or get a cabinet maker to make the cabinets for you and drop in the full range driver of your choice.

His choice of most iconic turntable? Wasn't that the turntable that he's got?
Seems to be more an exercise in human psychology than in what is the most iconic turntable?

And besides, most iconic is all very well. But for the personal buyer, surely it makes sense to buy the best tool (set of tools) for the job of listening to your vinyl for the least amount of money?

BTW the Altec 604 would have good grounds for claiming the title of "the Hi-Fi product with the longest continuous production". With it being in production since 1944 - albeit with modifications over the years.
I agree with the comments above except for the BTW part. Since the Altec 604 isn't currently in production (they stopped trading in 1998) it doesn't qualify for the way I was commenting on the LP12, although I didn't specifically state "in current production". Also the Altec 604 is a driver, so I would regard it more as a part, rather than a component as it would need to be in some kind of cabinet to actually be a useful component. I certainly wouldn't want to start trying to figure out what driver or AC synchronous motor is the longest lived part in terms of years it was produced.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Charlie1 »

Interesting posts from everyone and thanks Whatsmynaim for kicking this off.

Anyone heard the Phonosophie P3? And no, I'm not gonna try one :D
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lindsayt »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-12-02 20:31
I agree with the comments above except for the BTW part. Since the Altec 604 isn't currently in production (they stopped trading in 1998)
https://great-plains-audio.myshopify.co ... 604-8h-iii
https://great-plains-audio.myshopify.co ... -crossover
https://greatplainsaudio.com/about-us/

It's not a big deal either way. Apart from any video that covers the most iconic speakers should include the Altec 604. So many of the classic records we listen to were mastered with 604's. And 604's are still relevant today because of how tuneful they are in the upper bass, midrange and treble.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by ThomasOK »

I have no doubt that the 604s are an interesting and renowned speaker, although I have no personal experience with them. I'm not surprised somebody has come out with a new version of them, but it isn't actually Altec, is it?

Alex Halberstadt, who gave that wonderful review of the Entity 1.1 in Stereophile, owns Altec Valencia 846As. He told me that Art Dudely claimed the two best speakers in the world were the Altec Valencia and the original Quad ESL, although they are quite different. Although I haven't heard the Altec I couldn't exactly argue with him on the Quads.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lindsayt »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-12-03 20:08 I have no doubt that the 604s are an interesting and renowned speaker, although I have no personal experience with them. I'm not surprised somebody has come out with a new version of them, but it isn't actually Altec, is it?

Alex Halberstadt, who gave that wonderful review of the Entity 1.1 in Stereophile, owns Altec Valencia 846As. He told me that Art Dudely claimed the two best speakers in the world were the Altec Valencia and the original Quad ESL, although they are quite different. Although I haven't heard the Altec I couldn't exactly argue with him on the Quads.
Great Plains Audio bought the tooling from Altec. They also carried over technical expertise.
GPA aren't Altec in name, but they are as Altec as you can get without actually being Altec.

And then you have the Klipschorn. Patented by Paul Klipsch in 1946 and in production at Hope, Arkansas ever since. Another candidate for one of the most iconic speakers of all time.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by ThomasOK »

The Klipschorn is indeed an iconic speaker and is an older piece. But it was out of production for a number of years before being brought back into production, hence not continuous production.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Whatsmynaim »

Part 2 is released! "The Rega P10 - Why?"
https://youtu.be/0qWVWnxVJsU
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by John »

Thanks for posting. Makes me want to own one.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by ThomasOK »

Just watched it. Oh, boy! Part 2 - why did he buy it?

Oh, it's because it has all this cool tech in it that the guys at Rega showed him and explained so it must be a great turntable. He almost bought an LP12 but then changed his mind. After all Linn certainly hasn't experimented with different materials, improved bearings (in the turntable and arms), more sophisticated motor controllers (and motors as well), etc. over the years. They must not have because the LP12 looks basically the same.

Apparently it never crossed his mind to actually listen to both and then make up his mind, It is amazing to me how much he drank the Kool-Aid actually attributing to Rega the design of the 24 pole synchronous motor! You know, the one that was used on the LP12 and other turntables before Rega existed. Simply wonderful!
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lindsayt »

Whatsmynaim wrote: 2022-12-13 01:50 Part 2 is released! "The Rega P10 - Why?"
https://youtu.be/0qWVWnxVJsU
I got as far as 5:40 before getting bored of it.

His MG analogy doesn't work. Cars are cars. Turntables are turntables.
Someone else could come up with a Chipendale cabinet analogy.
Or a Stradivarius violin analogy.
Or a Victorian mansion analogy.
Or a large format analogue camera analogy.
Etc etc etc.

It's odd that he's mentioned 10 turntables in his previous video and doesn't seem to have conducted a series of AB listening tests of properly sorted examples of the turntables from his list.
He is of course welcome to talk about stuff that he lacks direct experience of. Just as we are welcome to comment what we think of his videos.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Spannko »

I found his presentational style quite entertaining, however the content was pure marketing fluff, which is a shame because I have tremendous respect for Roy Gandi and his team. For me, Rega’s £1000 “system in a box” was possibly the most musical system I heard at the Bristol hifi show a couple of years ago.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by tpetsch »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-12-15 17:14 Just watched it. Oh, boy! Part 2 - why did he buy it?

Oh, it's because it has all this cool tech in it that the guys at Rega showed him and explained so it must be a great turntable. He almost bought an LP12 but then changed his mind. After all Linn certainly hasn't experimented with different materials, improved bearings (in the turntable and arms), more sophisticated motor controllers (and motors as well), etc. over the years. They must not have because the LP12 looks basically the same.

Apparently it never crossed his mind to actually listen to both and then make up his mind, It is amazing to me how much he drank the Kool-Aid actually attributing to Rega the design of the 24 pole synchronous motor! You know, the one that was used on the LP12 and other turntables before Rega existed. Simply wonderful!
You come across as sounding so angry over some video Thomas. Like you feel personally threatened by the existence of a new turntable that gives the LP12 some competition.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by ThomasOK »

Interesting reading of my thinking, using your psychic powers or just projection? It would seem to me that lindsayt's post was at least as questioning as mine. Note that he mentioned being bored by 5:40 mark. If there is anything I am upset about it is not his choice of turntable, that is up to him, it is wasting a half hour of time waiting for something substantial and instead being treated to a puff piece.

By the way, whenever I get a chance to compare the LP12 to something that might be better than it I take the opportunity. I am looking for the most musical system, regardless of who makes the parts of it. I drove my LP12 out to St. Louis a couple of years ago in order to compare it to a Shindo 301. Having read some of the glowing reports of the Garrard 301 and not having had anybody bring in one to work on (unlike the Thorens TD124 which I have rebuilt a few of) I wanted to see if it really was that good. I figured the Shindo 301 would likely be at the top of the heap of rebuilt 301s with a custom machined platter and bearing, a rather special plinth, etc. so I took an extra day off for the opportunity to do a comparison (I was going to St. Louis anyway to do some upgrades on a couple of LP12s). I actually found the Shindo 301 surprisingly musical but the Klimax LP12 definitely was even more so, dug more music out of the groove and was even more solid in terms of both pitch and bass perfromance than the 301. One of my Lejonklou dealers who picked up Linn a while back did the same comparison in his shop with a different Shindo 301 and came to the same conclusion.

There is another turntable with a good reputation that I am investigating. I had a chance to listen to one at a Hi-Fi show and it seemed pretty good but it was a totally unfamiliar system and not compared to anything so I couldn't really evaluate it. I will be having another opportunity or two to give it a listen but it will likely be a few months yet.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by tpetsch »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-12-16 00:36 Interesting reading of my thinking, using your psychic powers or just projection? It would seem to me that lindsayt's post was at least as questioning as mine. Note that he mentioned being bored by 5:40 mark. If there is anything I am upset about it is not his choice of turntable, that is up to him, it is wasting a half hour of time waiting for something substantial and instead being treated to a puff piece.

By the way, whenever I get a chance to compare the LP12 to something that might be better than it I take the opportunity. I am looking for the most musical system, regardless of who makes the parts of it. I drove my LP12 out to St. Louis a couple of years ago in order to compare it to a Shindo 301. Having read some of the glowing reports of the Garrard 301 and not having had anybody bring in one to work on (unlike the Thorens TD124 which I have rebuilt a few of) I wanted to see if it really was that good. I figured the Shindo 301 would likely be at the top of the heap of rebuilt 301s with a custom machined platter and bearing, a rather special plinth, etc. so I took an extra day off for the opportunity to do a comparison (I was going to St. Louis anyway to do some upgrades on a couple of LP12s). I actually found the Shindo 301 surprisingly musical but the Klimax LP12 definitely was even more so, dug more music out of the groove and was even more solid in terms of both pitch and bass perfromance than the 301. One of my Lejonklou dealers who picked up Linn a while back did the same comparison in his shop with a different Shindo 301 and came to the same conclusion.

There is another turntable with a good reputation that I am investigating. I had a chance to listen to one at a Hi-Fi show and it seemed pretty good but it was a totally unfamiliar system and not compared to anything so I couldn't really evaluate it. I will be having another opportunity or two to give it a listen but it will likely be a few months yet.
None of this stuff can be evaluated in a Youtube video, you of all people should know this. Don't really know what you were expecting, 18 years of Youtube and did anyone in all that time ever put out a convincing Turntable video of any type let alone a convincing LP12 video? ...In fact, do a quick Youtube search for LP12's and you'll find it's easier to come across way more LP12 system clips sounding awful then those sounding somewhat musical.

The only real way to get a truly proper turntable -or any piece of gear- demo is to bring it home and listen to it in your own system over several days. But unfortunately this is not possible for most.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Tendaberry »

tpetsch wrote: 2022-12-16 06:50Don't really know what you were expecting, 18 years of Youtube and did anyone in all that time ever put out a convincing Turntable video of any type let alone a convincing LP12 video?
They may not be posted on Youtube, but I find ThomasOK's videos of his system here on the forum very enjoyable. And I won't forget how easy it was to prefer the Ekos SE/1 over the Ekos SE based on a video here in the Playground thread.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lindsayt »

tpetsch wrote: 2022-12-16 06:50 The only real way to get a truly proper turntable -or any piece of gear- demo is to bring it home and listen to it in your own system over several days. But unfortunately this is not possible for most.
I agree about getting a turntable into your own home and listening to it in your system. And comparing it to whatever you've already got.

The way I've done it over the last 17 years - and not just for turntables but for every part of my system - is to take a punt on something that I think has a chance of sounding more tuneful than my existing stuff. And to buy something from ebay or forum classifieds that's at a price where I could sell it on for a modest profit.

Quite a bit of the stuff that I've been delighted with has been stuff that wouldn't appear on youtube 10 most iconic videos.
Under the radar stuff can be fantastic on the $ per sound quality front.

I suppose most people aren't as geeky and nerdy as me when it comes to hi-fi equipment, which is why they never trawl through ebay looking for audio bargains. It's one of those where the route IS highly possible, but few take it.
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