Video about 10 iconic turntables.

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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lindsayt
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lindsayt »

Spannko wrote: 2022-12-18 22:53 There was a time when the Rega Planar 3 was so much better than any other turntable, up to an LP12, I seriously queried Linn’s logic for introducing the Axis. There didn’t seem to be the musical space to squeeze another turntable in. How wrong was I!!! Not only was the Axis more musical than the RP3, the gap between the RP3 and Axis was bigger than the gap between the Axis and the LP12, and yet compared to an LP12, the Axis was clearly left wanting. Hifi: it’s a funny old game!
What time was that? 11th February 1983? When Japan was closed for National Foundation Day?

The Rega Planar 3 was a relatively untuneful turntable, in a sucking the life out of the music kind of way.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Spannko »

lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-19 22:16
Spannko wrote: 2022-12-18 22:53 There was a time when the Rega Planar 3 was so much better than any other turntable, up to an LP12, I seriously queried Linn’s logic for introducing the Axis. There didn’t seem to be the musical space to squeeze another turntable in. How wrong was I!!! Not only was the Axis more musical than the RP3, the gap between the RP3 and Axis was bigger than the gap between the Axis and the LP12, and yet compared to an LP12, the Axis was clearly left wanting. Hifi: it’s a funny old game!
The Rega Planar 3 was a relatively untuneful turntable
I don’t disagree. A quick comparison against the Axis demonstrated that. However, it was still the most tuneful “budget” turntable ca February 1983 (sic).
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Tendaberry »

lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-19 22:16The Rega Planar 3 was a relatively untuneful turntable, in a sucking the life out of the music kind of way.
No, that honour goes to the Thorens TD 126, at least when I compared them back in 1986.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Charlie1 »

In addition to borrowing a P10 for a few days, which I enjoyed, I had a brief P6 demo using Rega amps and Dynavector speakers. Could have been the dealer but it was really dull. The positive is that it wasn't impressive Hi-Fi, but it wasn't at all engaging. Conversely, the Rega One system I heard along with Spannko was enjoyable.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

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Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-20 12:36 In addition to borrowing a P10 for a few days, which I enjoyed, I had a brief P6 demo using Rega amps and Dynavector speakers. Could have been the dealer but it was really dull. The positive is that it wasn't impressive Hi-Fi, but it wasn't at all engaging. Conversely, the Rega One system I heard along with Spannko was enjoyable.
Did you make any P10 vs LP12 recordings when you had it home?
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by tpetsch »

John wrote: 2022-12-20 13:04
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-20 12:36 In addition to borrowing a P10 for a few days, which I enjoyed, I had a brief P6 demo using Rega amps and Dynavector speakers. Could have been the dealer but it was really dull. The positive is that it wasn't impressive Hi-Fi, but it wasn't at all engaging. Conversely, the Rega One system I heard along with Spannko was enjoyable.
Did you make any P10 vs LP12 recordings when you had it home?
You have to also remember John that just like any other turntable it takes some time and effort to really make a deck sing in ones own system, you can't simply plop it down and expect it to play at it's finest out of the box. It took me several weeks -and I'm still trying new things- and besides the usual cartridge/stylus break in and the overall warming up of things, one needs to consider a proper stand and I even went thru several of my vintage Naim/Chord interconnects & Snaic collection to find the most musical combinations, some worked better with the LP12 and some better with the P10. Even the order/way the TT & Phono stage was plunged into the wall outlets was scrutinized and different sounding as was TT power supply box placement. Also It took me a little time to find the best sounding antiskate, 0.8 and I never owned a deck where the stylus force adjustment acted like such a precise instrument upon the cartridge where even 1/30th of a gram movements made obvious musical and overall system frequency response differences, 1.96g. ...But all this shouldn't be an issue for many LP12 owners as tinkering to get the best sound out of them has always been part of the hobby.

Side note: I did a funky A/B the other day, I took two .25"x.25"x 0.020" thick -that's like the thickness of 5 sheets of newspaper- rubber racing tire tube slivers and placed them in between the upper top spikes of my TT stand shelf that the TT sits on -the rubber becoming squeezed/displaced to probably closer to 0.010" upon the spike tip and weight of the top shelf & TT itself upon it- in an attempt to slightly damp the shelf because it rang a little bit when I tapped it and it made me think, well it turned out that this change of adding just these two rubber slivers to just the two front spikes wound up totally destroying the tune on the sample jazz track I was listening to, so much so that I became totally disinterested in the music. I reverted back and music/tune flowed again and the ability to get lost in the music returned, everything made sense again. I guess my point is that the even tiniest thing that's out of place at this level of comparison can alter the listeners final thoughts when demoing gear.

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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Charlie1 »

tpetsch wrote: 2022-12-20 19:41
John wrote: 2022-12-20 13:04
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-20 12:36 In addition to borrowing a P10 for a few days, which I enjoyed, I had a brief P6 demo using Rega amps and Dynavector speakers. Could have been the dealer but it was really dull. The positive is that it wasn't impressive Hi-Fi, but it wasn't at all engaging. Conversely, the Rega One system I heard along with Spannko was enjoyable.
Did you make any P10 vs LP12 recordings when you had it home?
You have to also remember John that just like any other turntable it takes some time and effort to really make a deck sing in ones own system, you can't simply plop it down and expect it to play at it's finest out of the box.
It might not be at it's best but it needs to show enough potential to warrant further interest. My Valhalla/Ittok/K9 made much more sense of the music to my ears so whilst I enjoyed the P10, it didn't really put up much of a fight - maybe I should have been more blunt from the beginning but most decks are awful and I liked some of the things it did. Yes, I made sure it was level on identical Lack tables and all the electronics were nicely warmed up but there are limits. It wasn't new so the cart didn't need running in. I think you just need to accept that I tried one at home and didn't prefer it to either of my LP12s. Surely you can't expect everyone to like it just cos you think its great?
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2022-12-20 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Charlie1 »

John wrote: 2022-12-20 13:04 Did you make any P10 vs LP12 recordings when you had it home?
I did at the time. No one preferred the P10 but those people listening tend to have similar preferences to me so perhaps not a surprise. I would encourage anyone interested to have a listen.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by tpetsch »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-20 21:00
John wrote: 2022-12-20 13:04 Did you make any P10 vs LP12 recordings when you had it home?
I did at the time. No one preferred the P10 but those people listening tend to have similar preferences to me so perhaps not a surprise. I would encourage anyone interested to have a listen.
Do we not tend to agree with with each other on most A/B's here in the playground Charlie?

In fact you're one of the few consistent guys with no obvious ulterior motives other than wanting to simply enjoy the most musical playback possible within your means that if you felt strongly positive about something that you've heard I'd seriously consider going out of my way to learn more about it.
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-20 20:56 Surely you can't expect everyone to like it just cos you think its great?
Of course Charlie, I appreciate your opinion, you physically had a P10 in your home along with your LP12 in your system and made a educated decision based on your likes and dislikes and what your sensitive to. What I don't appreciate is baseless opinions from others who have never heard a P10 but feel they need to concoct negative assumptions and anecdotes anyway just because it doesn't fit into their narrative.

And I don't think the P10 is perfect, no deck is that I've ever heard and there's no perfect medium, but after 35 years with LP12's what it offers me is a new breath of fresh air approach to the LP12 that I find to be less colored -more neutral overall with less added on baggage- yet retains much about what I liked about the LP12, I understand that not many turntables get the tune right -if at all- like the LP12 has done over the years but the P10 is one of those few rare decks that makes music happen, gets me interested, helps me understand and keeps my attention. The "RP"8 I once had in my home for a few weeks several years ago began to do this for me too, but it wasn't quite right enough for me to want to give up my LP12 for it, the P10 on thye other hand struck the right balance for me between tune & neutrality that I'm more drawn to than any LP12 I've owned or listened to, and now 2 years later I still have no regrets.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Charlie1 »

tpetsch wrote: 2022-12-20 22:48
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-20 21:00 I did at the time. No one preferred the P10 but those people listening tend to have similar preferences to me so perhaps not a surprise. I would encourage anyone interested to have a listen.
Do we not tend to agree with with each other on most A/B's here in the playground Charlie?
Mostly, yes.
tpetsch wrote: 2022-12-20 22:48 Of course Charlie, I appreciate your opinion, you physically had a P10 in your home along with your LP12 in your system and made a educated decision based on your likes and dislikes and what your sensitive to. What I don't appreciate is baseless opinions from others who have never heard a P10 but feel they need to concoct negative assumptions and anecdotes anyway just because it doesn't fit into their narrative.
OK, I just got the feeling based on posts here (and PFM) that you were having a dig that I'd not spent enough time with it or given it a fair go, etc. But then I'm sure it gets tiring read me repeating my experience which I try not to do too often.

I've not noticed baseless opinion here. Folks tend to stick to what they've experienced unlike the fella in that video.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

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Charlie1 wrote: 2022-12-20 21:00
John wrote: 2022-12-20 13:04 Did you make any P10 vs LP12 recordings when you had it home?
I did at the time. No one preferred the P10 but those people listening tend to have similar preferences to me so perhaps not a surprise. I would encourage anyone interested to have a listen.
Do you have a link to the files?
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Charlie1 »

Sorry, I meant listen to a p10 I real life :)
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lindsayt »

Spannko wrote: 2022-12-19 23:36
I don’t disagree. A quick comparison against the Axis demonstrated that. However, it was still the most tuneful “budget” turntable ca February 1983 (sic).
So all those middle of the range turntables from Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood/Trio, Sony etc didn't exist?
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Spannko »

lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-21 21:12
Spannko wrote: 2022-12-19 23:36
I don’t disagree. A quick comparison against the Axis demonstrated that. However, it was still the most tuneful “budget” turntable ca February 1983 (sic).
So all those middle of the range turntables from Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood/Trio, Sony etc didn't exist?
Sorry lindsayt, I don’t understand. Can you rephrase your comment please.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lindsayt »

Spannko wrote: 2022-12-22 12:13
lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-21 21:12
Spannko wrote: 2022-12-19 23:36
I don’t disagree. A quick comparison against the Axis demonstrated that. However, it was still the most tuneful “budget” turntable ca February 1983 (sic).
So all those middle of the range turntables from Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood/Trio, Sony etc didn't exist?
Sorry lindsayt, I don’t understand. Can you rephrase your comment please.
The Rega Planar 3 was not the most tuneful £200ish turntable in the early 1980's.
There were multiple middle of the range turntables from the Japanese corporates from that era that were more tuneful.
The bottom of the range plasticky Japanese turntables were untuneful. Avoid them at all costs. But when you started moving into the more metallic, or wood and metal turntables from Japan, you started getting pleasantly tuneful performance for the money.

The Rega Planar 3 may have been the most tuneful budget turntable in Rega dealers in the UK at that time.
But, worldwide, there were more tuneful turntables in that market segment.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by lejonklou »

lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-22 17:34 The Rega Planar 3 was not the most tuneful £200ish turntable in the early 1980's.
There were multiple middle of the range turntables from the Japanese corporates from that era that were more tuneful.
The bottom of the range plasticky Japanese turntables were untuneful. Avoid them at all costs. But when you started moving into the more metallic, or wood and metal turntables from Japan, you started getting pleasantly tuneful performance for the money.

The Rega Planar 3 may have been the most tuneful budget turntable in Rega dealers in the UK at that time.
But, worldwide, there were more tuneful turntables in that market segment.
Never experienced this even once during my 5 years in retail. Had all kinds of turntables in all price ranges brought into the store by customers (we actively encouraged a comparison with what they already had) and they were all beaten by a Rega Planar 3 with an AT-95E cartridge.

The only turntables that were better were the Linns (Basik, Axis and LP12).
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by tpetsch »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-12-22 18:53
lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-22 17:34 The Rega Planar 3 was not the most tuneful £200ish turntable in the early 1980's.
There were multiple middle of the range turntables from the Japanese corporates from that era that were more tuneful.
The bottom of the range plasticky Japanese turntables were untuneful. Avoid them at all costs. But when you started moving into the more metallic, or wood and metal turntables from Japan, you started getting pleasantly tuneful performance for the money.

The Rega Planar 3 may have been the most tuneful budget turntable in Rega dealers in the UK at that time.
But, worldwide, there were more tuneful turntables in that market segment.
Never experienced this even once during my 5 years in retail. Had all kinds of turntables in all price ranges brought into the store by customers (we actively encouraged a comparison with what they already had) and they were all beaten by a Rega Planar 3 with an AT-95E cartridge.

The only turntables that were better were the Linns (Basik, Axis and LP12).
We never got on with the Basik or the Axis FWIW although I'd probably agree that the Axis was ultimately the more musical deck but that was so long ago. And like you mention these 3 always beat pretty much anything a customer brought into the shop to A/B, actually can't recall any other deck other then an LP12 once you lock into the tune as your fundamental 1st requirement to judge things by.. The Planar 3 was better built then the Basik and the RB300 -introduced in 83'- was simply a lot of tonearm for the money at that time.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-12-22 18:53
lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-22 17:34 The Rega Planar 3 was not the most tuneful £200ish turntable in the early 1980's.
There were multiple middle of the range turntables from the Japanese corporates from that era that were more tuneful.
The bottom of the range plasticky Japanese turntables were untuneful. Avoid them at all costs. But when you started moving into the more metallic, or wood and metal turntables from Japan, you started getting pleasantly tuneful performance for the money.

The Rega Planar 3 may have been the most tuneful budget turntable in Rega dealers in the UK at that time.
But, worldwide, there were more tuneful turntables in that market segment.
Never experienced this even once during my 5 years in retail. Had all kinds of turntables in all price ranges brought into the store by customers (we actively encouraged a comparison with what they already had) and they were all beaten by a Rega Planar 3 with an AT-95E cartridge.

The only turntables that were better were the Linns (Basik, Axis and LP12).
This is my experience as well. I still get many of these to work on and had in the past too. Kenwood KD-500, JVC TT-81, Sony 2251 (one of which currently resides in my garage because it likes to spin at about 200RPM and I haven't had time to fix it yet), Revox straight line tracking, Nakamichi Dragon CT, even the Denons which we carried back in the day and felt to be the best of the direct drives. None of them were as musical and enjoyable as the Rega Planar 3.

Indeed the running joke at the store was that none of the "Better than an LP12" turntables that reviewers lauded were actually as good as the Planar 3. So when somebody came in with something they were trying to sell us, like an Oracle or top Thorens, we would always compare to the Rega 3 first. This continues as a fully rebuilt Thorens TD124 is still musically short of a Rega Planar 3 and some Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference tables I rebuilt, while pretty good, still weren't quite as musical. A twice as expensive Nottingham Analogue SpaceDeck was one which a few years ago garnered us a long term customer as he found the Planar 25, and even the third of the price Planar 3, were musically superior. There are others, both vintage and modern, but you get the idea.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by John »

w
ThomasOK wrote: 2022-12-22 19:46
lejonklou wrote: 2022-12-22 18:53
lindsayt wrote: 2022-12-22 17:34 The Rega Planar 3 was not the most tuneful £200ish turntable in the early 1980's.
There were multiple middle of the range turntables from the Japanese corporates from that era that were more tuneful.
The bottom of the range plasticky Japanese turntables were untuneful. Avoid them at all costs. But when you started moving into the more metallic, or wood and metal turntables from Japan, you started getting pleasantly tuneful performance for the money.

The Rega Planar 3 may have been the most tuneful budget turntable in Rega dealers in the UK at that time.
But, worldwide, there were more tuneful turntables in that market segment.
Never experienced this even once during my 5 years in retail. Had all kinds of turntables in all price ranges brought into the store by customers (we actively encouraged a comparison with what they already had) and they were all beaten by a Rega Planar 3 with an AT-95E cartridge.

The only turntables that were better were the Linns (Basik, Axis and LP12).
This is my experience as well. I still get many of these to work on and had in the past too. Kenwood KD-500, JVC TT-81, Sony 2251 (one of which currently resides in my garage because it likes to spin at about 200RPM and I haven't had time to fix it yet), Revox straight line tracking, Nakamichi Dragon CT, even the Denons which we carried back in the day and felt to be the best of the direct drives. None of them were as musical and enjoyable as the Rega Planar 3.

Indeed the running joke at the store was that none of the "Better than an LP12" turntables that reviewers lauded were actually as good as the Planar 3. So when somebody came in with something they were trying to sell us, like an Oracle or top Thorens, we would always compare to the Rega 3 first. This continues as a fully rebuilt Thorens TD124 is still musically short of a Rega Planar 3 and some Transcriptors Hydraulic Reference tables I rebuilt, while pretty good, still weren't quite as musical. A twice as expensive Nottingham Analogue SpaceDeck was one which a few years ago garnered us a long term customer as he found the Planar 25, and even the third of the price Planar 3, were musically superior. There are others, both vintage and modern, but you get the idea.
Our shop did A/B comparisons for all new customers who entered the store. The point was to demonstrate the tune dem and inform them that when we said one component was better than another, they would know what we meant.

I recall a customer who had been in before and went through all the A/B’s who eventually brought in his Sota Saphire, a much touted turntable in its day. Out of respect to the customer, it was first compared with the LP12. Once he got comfortable and realized the LP12 was more tuneful we brought in our Rega Planar 2 which outperformed the Sota as well. He ended up purchasing a top LP12 from us and later electronics and loudspeakers.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by markiteight »

Hi folks,
I have moved the discussion of the Tune Method, starting with lindsayt's excellent question about differences in opinion, to the How we define "good sound" thread. Lindsayt's question, and the resulting discussion, have strayed off this topic. But more importantly that discussion is too significant to let it get lost in an unrelated topic. Thus it's been moved to a sticky'd thread.

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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Arjen »

Funny that after the moderator intervention the dispute of , Linn versus Rega, LP12 versus P10 has stopped. Sign of a non-discussion? Discussion with a wrong focus, focus on sytems instead of tune or melody? Probably a need for a more open, broader carrier discussion with focus on musically deliverance itself?
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Spannko »

It’s not worth discussing. Without comparative videos, there’s absolutely nothing to be gained.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by Whatsmynaim »

The last part is released. "Part 3: Analog vs digital - can vinyl ever sound better than digital?"
https://youtu.be/MlccCTy4PiQ
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by John »

Whatsmynaim wrote: 2023-01-10 20:58 The last part is released. "Part 3: Analog vs digital - can vinyl ever sound better than digital?"
https://youtu.be/MlccCTy4PiQ
Thanks for posting the link. I enjoyed his points and got a couple music suggestions as well that I’m now listening to.
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Re: Video about 10 iconic turntables.

Post by beck »

I have found a way with CD, so much so that I really enjoy the music and my visits to the local second hand store increase in numbers and my collection grows.

I love what my records can do for me and I believe that even streaming could make me happy when I get the chance.

What I find to be most important is to end up with a system and setup that can present music in a way that makes you relax and enjoy.

No system is perfect. Not even the very expensive ones.

This is what I have picked up these last many years. :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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