Linn versus Naim amps

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

hcl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 360
Joined: 2008-01-13 11:03
Location: Göteborg
Contact:

Post by hcl »

Efraim roots wrote:... I feel Naim is more commercial than Linn and often sold by random Hifi dealers who also sell junk, and everywhere on forums and magazines people talk about that Naim are sooo musical. This really make me wonder how bad other big Hifi brands must be.
Lately I have been around the neighbourhood listening to equipment said to be good hifi and on all occasions but one I have been deeply dissapointed by the poor performance - in allmost all aspects, musical as well as soundvise. Even a basic level Linn system playes music in a way most other systems don´t come close to.

The most recent non-Linn systems I heard were a Teac+Wilsson Audio (about 35000+Euro) and a Audio Research+Wilson Audio (100000+ Euro) system. Allthough the AR-system was much better than the Teac system it was really dissapointing in all aspects. A MajikDS/D+KikkinII+2250+A242 (a friend of mines) system totally destroys the AR-Wilsson-system.

The only system I found reasonably good was a Naim HDX+XPS+282+250+Audiovector system on Fraim shelves. We had to reposition the speakers (in the store) getting it right and after that it produced a quite satisfying sound, not conciering the price tag. Comparing with a similarly priced Linn system the Naim system would not get many points.
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Per A wrote:I was in a shop the other day where somebody had traded his Akurate DS + Exotik DA for a Boulder preamp with a DAC. Boulder anybody??
I have heard some Boulder components, but never been in a situation to evaluate a Boulder component directly against similar products from other companies.
Tony Tune-age
Per A
Active member
Active member
Posts: 165
Joined: 2007-08-13 10:10

Post by Per A »

Thanks Tony,

I had to fight down the impulse to buy the Akurate DS which is not in my budget before holidays :)
User avatar
Tony Tune-age
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1579
Joined: 2009-12-19 19:07
Location: United States

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Per A wrote:Thanks Tony,

I had to fight down the impulse to buy the Akurate DS which is not in my budget before holidays :)
Sometimes it doesn't hurt to wait awhile for a really good product 8) .
Tony Tune-age
Arjen
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 431
Joined: 2021-06-10 13:23
Location: NL and Friesland

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Arjen »

This is an old item. Linn versus Naim. As a more than a decade reproducing music on Naim gear, recently SN2 and Hicap DR, with upgraded Lenco 76/S and Nagaoka MP300 and Slipsik 6.1, am I a second rate with my Naim on this forum or should I downplay that thought by thinking that a lot of folks here are Linn believers?
Lenco 76/S TJN, Dr. Fuss, Supernait2, CD5X, Slipsik7.1, Millon Phantom, Soundeck, AudioSensibility
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by beck »

Arjen wrote: 2021-08-18 23:20 This is an old item. Linn versus Naim. As a more than a decade reproducing music on Naim gear, recently SN2 and Hicap DR, with upgraded Lenco 76/S and Nagaoka MP300 and Slipsik 6.1, am I a second rate with my Naim on this forum or should I downplay that thought by thinking that a lot of folks here are Linn believers?
Linn/Naim/Lejonklou/any other brand is not the important thing on this forum (at least not to me). When you get the hang of listening for the “music” (not sound) that is all that matters.
Playing cd’s…………
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Charlie1 »

I use three vintage Naim setups and a Nait in reserve so always happy to chat Naim :) There are other Naim owners here too along with Exposure and others and of course many Lejonklou owners. I would say that most folks here will prefer Lejonklou or Linn over Naim though.

Like beck said, it's more about finding the most musical product for you. There are Naim amps I'm not so fussed about and I wouldn't want to live with their speakers, despite enjoying and respecting what an IBL / SBL can achieve.

I'm not a believer in a single amplifier, or anything else, being the best for everyone, even amongst those focused purely on the music. People experience music differently so whilst there can be universal agreement on the playground thread, there can also be a split preference. It's nice when we all agree though :)
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Just back to the main topic. It's taken me a while to understand why I like old Naim amps so much and it comes back to something beck wrote not long ago about being about to relax into the music. Even if you take a very popular classic pairing like Kairn/Klout (serviced) and compare to vintage Naim (serviced), the Linn will likely make any given melody more poignant and emotive which is great and should be the end of the story, but the whole time, something is bothering me and I simply cannot relax properly. There's a slight tension in my chest and my mind is slightly unsettled. I'm like Neo at the beginning of The Matrix knowing something isn't quite right but unsure what it is.

Yet we know from the Playground thread that most people here don't react this way which is why you need to decide for yourself.
Arjen
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 431
Joined: 2021-06-10 13:23
Location: NL and Friesland

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Arjen »

Thanks Charlie and Beck,
My contribution was motivated by the impression given that Linn is preferable over Naim. not being really explained. I myself do not know Linn very well. Maybe more dry, realistic and layback than Naim (as some reviews on the internet suggest, which I cannot check). To hang on the Naim brand is in my case first that I always enjoyed the performance of it, though there is of course more in the world. I listen in a studio often to Goldmund/ Kharma, excellent performance but not wallet permitting for me. Same to Linn, to change from Naim to Linn, let say in case of it suits me better after a listening experience, than it is still if wallet permitting. We all try to love music in a musically way on our own set, trying to optimize sometimes by, in my case, a musically Slipsik preamp or little tweaks. But because of wallet limits I love to feel myself first rated the the audio road I ‘m walking.
I know that concepts and designs are different, a true love for the one brand might result in blind spots for other brands or solutions. It is like you are in the Rolling Stones camp, not liking The Beatles to experience years after that you have missed a lot. So I ‘d like to downplay too big review gaps and hiërarchie by this.
Lenco 76/S TJN, Dr. Fuss, Supernait2, CD5X, Slipsik7.1, Millon Phantom, Soundeck, AudioSensibility
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Charlie1 »

If you're enjoying your SN2 then all good. A friend has one with old PMC speakers and I've always enjoyed his system too.

Yes, Lejonklou, Linn, Naim, Rega, Exposure are all excellent products. We are lucky to have such a broad choice.
Gammaboy
Member
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: 2017-08-04 21:30

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Gammaboy »

I went active with Naim electronics in 1998 to drive a pair of Isobariks. The system was comprised of a 52, three 250's, and SNAXO powered by a HiCap. The setup replaced an active Exposure system. I thought the Exposure was very good, but the olive Naim electronics sounded a bit better to me. Primary source was an LP12 with an Aro/Troika/Linto and Armageddon. CD player was initially a Linn Karik/Numerik that was replaced by a Naim CDX. I have nothing but praise for anything mentioned above, I just thought the Naim equipment sounded better to me than the Linn or Exposure.

Fast forward to maybe 5 years ago when I was building a second system for my house. I bought a Majik-i integrated, Majik LP12, and Majik 140 speakers from ThomasOK. Over time I found the Majik-i lacking and ended up replacing it with a used Naim SN2. I really preferred the SN2. It just sounded better to me.

In 2016 I replaced the olive Naim electronics with a Naim 552 preamp and power supply/ three Naim 250 DR power amps, new Naim crossover and Supercap DR. The Isobariks remained unchanged and the LP12 had been upgraded to Keel/Radikal/Ekos SE1/ Kandid/ Entity. I thought the new Naim system sounded great.

Then trouble appeared on the horizon. Tom had a used Boazu (aka Lejonklou gateway drug) that I compared to the SN2. The SN2 was good but the Boazu was better. I did not buy the Boazu but eventually replaced the SN2 with a Sagatun 1.3/ Tundra 2.2, also from Tom. I would typically only listen to the active Naim system on weekend mornings. Once the Lejonkou stereo units appeared in a "lesser" system, I found the Naim electronics began to sound a bit too detailed and fatiguing after an hour or so, and I would find myself opting to listen more to the Lejonklou passive system. The Majik LP12 also underwent significant upgrades over time and another Entity was added. We would have the passive Lejonklou system playing in the house for hours, which was also my experience with the active olive Naim system.

I very recently replaced the active Naim electronics with Lejonklou, using an Exposure VXN crossover. (I asked about the possibility of a Lejonklou active crossover but Fredrik replied it was complicated and not in his top six projects. I am holding out hope because I think I once read a Lejonklou streamer was also too difficult to build and support!!) The active Lejounklou system is remarkable and easily betters the Naim. In retrospect, I have a hunch the olive Naim may also be better than the recent stuff. I now sit listening to the new active Lejonklou setup for hours, often playing recordings all the way through before moving on to something else. I should also point out that I am not disappointed when I move from the active Lejonklou system to the passive.

A good friend from out east bought the same Naim active system that I did at the exact same time in 2016, and he loves it. He visited a couple years ago and couldn't stop commenting about how great the Majik 140's (with the Sagatun/Tundra) sounded. I have never compared a Sagatun/Tundra directly to a Linn Akurate or Klimax setup, but I have heard Isobariks active with a Kairn/Klout combination, as well as Naim and Exposure, and the Lejonklou electronics are easily the most enjoyable components I have ever heard, by a considerable margin!
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Great story - thanks for sharing!
Arjen
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 431
Joined: 2021-06-10 13:23
Location: NL and Friesland

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Arjen »

A story that make sense, Gammaboy. Too detailed and too forward can be fatIguing indeed. See my item about hurting ears. After upgrading from Nait XS to SN 2, Grado Prestige Gold to Nagaoka MP300, upgrading Lenco 76/S and using Damping Feet relaxed listening was kind of over and caused kind of unpleasant ear pressure cause of too much transparency and detail? Repositioning the speakers with guidance from tune method helped to get a more layback and less fatiguing music reproduction again, though higher sound quality than before.
Now, to you, what is exactly the other, say better performance of the Boazu and the old olive over the SN2? And can an upgrade from slipsik 6.1 to 7.1 be of a help too in a more layback satisfying direction again?
Last edited by Arjen on 2021-08-23 23:33, edited 2 times in total.
Lenco 76/S TJN, Dr. Fuss, Supernait2, CD5X, Slipsik7.1, Millon Phantom, Soundeck, AudioSensibility
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Arjen wrote: 2021-08-19 23:08 Too detailed
I don't understand the concept of, "too detailed". Watch YouTube videos of the best studio professionals and you'll quickly realise that much information from the performance is lost before the master tapes are complete. From a source first POV too detailed makes no sense to me. The closer you get to the original performance the better.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 792
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by springwood64 »

I tend to use "too detailed" as a shorthand for "details that don't play together well, distracting from the music rather than enhancing it"
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
Arjen
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 431
Joined: 2021-06-10 13:23
Location: NL and Friesland

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Arjen »

About detail, in my last post I edited a nuance. You read about differences of more dynamisch and detai of Naim and a little analytical/dry layback of Linn in some reviews too. For what is worth…..
Lenco 76/S TJN, Dr. Fuss, Supernait2, CD5X, Slipsik7.1, Millon Phantom, Soundeck, AudioSensibility
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by V.A.MKD »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-08-19 22:30 Great story - thanks for sharing!
+1, never enough of great stories ...
Music First ...
Vlado
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Spannko »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-08-20 00:14
Arjen wrote: 2021-08-19 23:08 Too detailed
I don't understand the concept of, "too detailed". Watch YouTube videos of the best studio professionals and you'll quickly realise that much information from the performance is lost before the master tapes are complete. From a source first POV too detailed makes no sense to me. The closer you get to the original performance the better.
It’s possible (and far more common than it should be) for a recording of an instrument to appear far more detailed than the original. Generally, the sound of most instruments is quite mellow and harmonious (I accept that there are some exceptions), particularly when listened to at “normal” distances. If, as you suggest, “much information from the performance is lost before the master tapes are complete”, then the recordings should appear less detailed than the original, not more. The only way lost information can be “recovered” is by manipulating the recording to give the appearance of more detail, which of course is false and tiresome to listen to.

PS. Let’s not forget that our HiFi systems have the ability to not only reveal hidden details, they can go too far and exaggerate elements of the recording which is another form of manipulation. Beck has posted many videos demonstrating how by removing the exaggerations the musicality of the system usually improves and is less tiresome to listen to.
Last edited by Spannko on 2021-08-20 16:58, edited 1 time in total.
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Defender »

to add to what Spannko wrote about too detailed recordings: the best example for me is the blowing noise you sometimes hear recorded with wind instruments like a trumpet. Some are happy to hear that because for them its a high resolution recording - for me it doesn’t belong to the music has nothing to do with the music and it just distracts me from the music.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Spannko »

Quite right Defender. The only time I hear blowing noises are when the pipes are being cleared. Yuk! 🤢
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by ThomasOK »

I think the next to last post by Spannko sums it up nicely. There is a lot, and I do mean a lot, of Hi-Fi gear that overemphasizes upper midrange and high frequencies giving the impression of more detail. Things like the sounds of fingers on wound guitar strings end up with a prominence that is unnatural and fatiguing. At Hi-Fi shows many people seem to fall for this kind of thing and wax lyrical about hearing things they hadn't heard before so clearly, while others run from the rooms with their hands over their ears.

This is not true additional detail, which adds information to the music and lets you relax into it, as Lejonklou gear does. It is artificial detail that actually makes it harder to hear the subtleties of the instruments and how they are played due to the distortions involved in the false detail. Unfortunately the term detail has been misused so often to refer to this hyped kind of sound that many of us don't even like using the term. Personally, I am always leery of any system that gives a first impression of being very detailed.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Arjen
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 431
Joined: 2021-06-10 13:23
Location: NL and Friesland

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Arjen »

Thomas,, say your gear is not over emphasizing anything in the reproduction of music and then are using damping feet (like Ultra Feet by Bassocontinuo and Soundeck Damping Feet) under turntable, cd player and amp to lower the noise floor, the expect effect is more space to the midrange, more realistic vocal texture, enhancing delicate detail (as audiophile man suggest), is the performance than artificial too or just an honest upgrade/ verbesserung of the true thing, the real information?
Last edited by Arjen on 2021-08-21 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
Lenco 76/S TJN, Dr. Fuss, Supernait2, CD5X, Slipsik7.1, Millon Phantom, Soundeck, AudioSensibility
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by beck »

Arjen wrote: 2021-08-20 23:55 Thomas,, say your gear is not over emphasizing anything in the reproduction of music and then are using damping feet (like Ultra Feet by Basso Coninuo and Soundeck Damping Feet) under turntable, cd player and amp to lower the noise floor, the expect effect is more space to the midrange, more realistic vocal texture, enhancing delicate detail (as audiophile man suggest), is the performance than artificial too or just an honest upgrade/ verbesserung of the true thing, the real information?
I do not think this line of thinking is fruitful in the end. When you change anything in your setup you also change the way the music is coming out of the speakers.
Comparing before and after is the way to go with focus on the music. Using video clips on this forum is a good way to start.
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by Spannko »

Ha! Good luck with answering that one Thomas!


EDIT: Beck beat you to it!
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Linn versus Naim amps

Post by ThomasOK »

I have not been happy with damping feet or the so-called mechanical diodes. I have not tried the brands you mentioned and it is likely to depend a lot on the equipment you are using. But my experience so far has been that those devices only make Lejonklou and Linn equipment less musical than they are on their own feet. I have tried a number of well reviewed items like that but haven't found one yet I would use in my system. But I know others here have used such things to good effect with certain equipment so the best bet is to try what you want and listen using the tune method. Putting up clips for other forum members to listen to is a good way to get feedback on changes you are trying out.

After re-reading the question I will also state that I feel it is incorrect to believe that those devices actually lower the noise floor. In most cases I believe the best they do is shift the energy around with results that vary from questionable to disastrous to the music. Control of vibration certainly can improve the quality of music, and the feet on Lejonklou products are all chosen for the most musical quality, hence the three different feet on the three different chassis types. The racks you put things on also change the sound. But some of the most 'isolating" products out there really mess up the music. Again just my experience.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Post Reply