Vintage Amps

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Charlie1
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Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

I've been using various vintage amps for 2-3 years now which has been very cost effective and good fun so thought I'd report my findings.

I think that Naim chrome bumper sound best with speakers of their era, so Kans, SBLs, IBLs, Briks, Saras, ELAs, Royds, etc. Some of these old speakers still sound very good if you're prepared to search around (and if not, then Hiquphon still manufacture a direct replacement tweeter which helps) The Nait 1 and 2 are more neutral and can sound pretty good with modern speakers but the limited power has always been a stumbling block for me.

The gotcha with these vintage speakers is that some need a vintage LP12 to sound 100% well balanced. The Kan 1 in particular needs a pre-Cirkus LP12 to sound right to my ears. Some of this gear is a lot less neutral than modern equipment and needs more careful matching else it will be distractingly weird.

The next problem is finding a modern cartridge that works with a vintage LP12. The Goldring Troika/Karma rebuilds sounded perfectly matched but musically didn't deliver. However, the VM95 carts do work well - not as musical as a K9 but there's no cake and eat it in vintage land. The Krystal in particular, and the Koil/Adikt to a lesser extent, sound too warm.

As for the amps themselves, Naim have got that covered. They put a lot of effort into continually evaluating their legacy products to see which components have aged and creating the necessary kits for companies like Class A to service them. They sound great after a service - job done.

However, if you want something more tuneful like vintage LK amps then it's not so easy. Linn have never taken the same approach as Naim. It's been possible to service some caps but Linn have never kept a close eye on what's degrading and it's very much hit and miss. A lot of 90s LK gear now sounds very tired to me (1 x LK280, 2 x Klouts, 4 x Kairns), and they seem to need a complete service. My LK140 was made in the final 2006 year of production and still sounds good but it will continue to age and there's no long-term answer. Therefore, if like me you also want a tuneful system then I think the days are numbered and modern products are the only answer. And unlike my LK140, this means spending more than 300 quid on a power amp.

In summary, I think a complete vintage early-to-mid 80s system with CB amps and Linn Kan/Brik speakers plus modern VM95 is completely do-able and sounds great in its own way, especially for the money, and will boogie along like no modern setup I've heard. However, if like me you also want a more tuneful system then its probably better to invest more money and stay in the modern day, and if you don't care for digital pre-amps, then Lejonklou is your friend.

P.S. I do have an Exposure XV Super serviced by Exposure and that does sound good.so perhaps they are a viable alternative but only for Naim as it's not especially tuneful.

P.P.S. This post is based on my experience that two products can be musically superior to one another in different ways and I know many folks here don't hear things that way - i.e. they hear one is better at everything. A lazy (and probably misleading) way to describe this is that Lejonklou and Linn are more tuneful and Naim and Exposure are more rhythmic. For me it's about musical understanding but the way my mind works, my ease of understanding can shift between two products depending upon my mood or the way I'm listening - i.e. background music or focused listening. It's like having two listening modes - I still suspect this is to do with whether more of the left or right hand side of the brain is being used.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Spannko »

Thanks for your comprehensive summary charlie1! To summarise your summary, a well serviced Nait seems to be a no brainer and everyone should own at least one!

An issue you raise is the benefit of a “whole system” approach, and that there’s a lot more to creating something special than just putting the best components together, and this is a major issue these days. During the “Golden Era” of the 1980’s when Linn and Naim worked together, and even companies like Royd and Creek used Linn and Naim equipment to design their own products, the outcome was that they all played in harmony. Today, we don’t have that luxury.

At risk of sounding like a Lejonklou fan-boy (I really dislike fan-boy forums - they’re sooo boring!) I honestly believe that the Boazu has the potential to not only sound tuneful, but also very rhythmical, the problem I’m encountering is that I can’t find a pair of speakers which will let me hear it. Now, if that doesn’t sound like a crass fan-boy comment, I don’t know what does!

Let me explain. I’ve taken up speaker building as a new hobby and, with the right mix of ingredients, I’m hearing rhythms I haven’t heard since the days of the Troika/Kans combo. So I’m pretty sure the Boazu has great rhythm too. Hopefully at some point I’ll be able to post a video to back it up.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by tpetsch »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-08-12 12:55 I've been using various vintage amps for 2-3 years now which has been very cost effective and good fun so thought I'd report my findings.

I think that Naim chrome bumper sound best with speakers of their era, so Kans, SBLs, IBLs, Briks, Saras, ELAs, Royds, etc. Some of these old speakers still sound very good if you're prepared to search around (and if not, then Hiquphon still manufacture a direct replacement tweeter which helps) The Nait 1 and 2 are more neutral and can sound pretty good with modern speakers but the limited power has always been a stumbling block for me.

The gotcha with these vintage speakers is that some need a vintage LP12 to sound 100% well balanced. The Kan 1 in particular needs a pre-Cirkus LP12 to sound right to my ears. Some of this gear is a lot less neutral than modern equipment and needs more careful matching else it will be distractingly weird.

The next problem is finding a modern cartridge that works with a vintage LP12. The Goldring Troika/Karma rebuilds sounded perfectly matched but musically didn't deliver. However, the VM95 carts do work well - not as musical as a K9 but there's no cake and eat it in vintage land. The Krystal in particular, and the Koil/Adikt to a lesser extent, sound too warm.

As for the amps themselves, Naim have got that covered. They put a lot of effort into continually evaluating their legacy products to see which components have aged and creating the necessary kits for companies like Class A to service them. They sound great after a service - job done.

However, if you want something more tuneful like vintage LK amps then it's not so easy. Linn have never taken the same approach as Naim. It's been possible to service some caps but Linn have never kept a close eye on what's degrading and it's very much hit and miss. A lot of 90s LK gear now sounds very tired to me (1 x LK280, 2 x Klouts, 4 x Kairns), and they seem to need a complete service. My LK140 was made in the final 2006 year of production and still sounds good but it will continue to age and there's no long-term answer. Therefore, if like me you also want a tuneful system then I think the days are numbered and modern products are the only answer. And unlike my LK140, this means spending more than 300 quid on a power amp.

In summary, I think a complete vintage early-to-mid 80s system with CB amps and Linn Kan/Brik speakers plus modern VM95 is completely do-able and sounds great in its own way, especially for the money, and will boogie along like no modern setup I've heard. However, if like me you also want a more tuneful system then its probably better to invest more money and stay in the modern day, and if you don't care for digital pre-amps, then Lejonklou is your friend.

P.S. I do have an Exposure XV Super serviced by Exposure and that does sound good.so perhaps they are a viable alternative but only for Naim as it's not especially tuneful.

P.P.S. This post is based on my experience that two products can be musically superior to one another in different ways and I know many folks here don't hear things that way - i.e. they hear one is better at everything. A lazy (and probably misleading) way to describe this is that Lejonklou and Linn are more tuneful and Naim and Exposure are more rhythmic. For me it's about musical understanding but the way my mind works, my ease of understanding can shift between two products depending upon my mood or the way I'm listening - i.e. background music or focused listening. It's like having two listening modes - I still suspect this is to do with whether more of the left or right hand side of the brain is being used.
Interesting read Charlie,

Well, I'm using one of the most modern turntable/Cartridge & Phonostage combinations available today in my so called CB vintage amp system and I'm heaving zero issues with comparability, in fact I'm enjoying going onto almost 2 years now with my P10 and I'm still not looking for more, I'm -shockingly- currently content with the overall musical playback I'm experiencing from my system these days. Never in my 35 years with my LP12's -and all my friends LP12's- have I ever felt this way for any extended period of time. I just listen to music now for hours on end without fatigue and not wanting something more or thinking about the next analog "upgrade".

I will say from experience though that IMO the secret to CB Naim gear is to keep it all as original as possible, don't go down the aftermarket rabbit hole & stay away from aftermarket "upgrades", use the cables your Naim gear came with -or period correct Chord if you need to connect a non-Naim source- & stay away from aftermarket Amp/pre-amp/power supply "upgrade" boards -and I've tried several- as all the ones I've tried were grossly out of tune no matter no matter how many hours/weeks of "burnin" I gave them.

And I'm not kidding about period correct cable, the CB stuff came with a darker Grey 4-Core interconnect, and the Olive gear came with a Lavender hued brighter Grey 4-Core. After several tests the Darker Grey 4-Core that came with the CB gear definitely sounds more overall balanced and in tune than the Lavender in my CB system. ...But saying that I believe that the newer Black -30 years old now, Lol- 5 Pin Snaic has the edge over the even older Grey Snaic that came with the CB Hi Caps, strange, but this may have to do with improved shielding teqniques. ...Keep in mind that 4 Core is Directional & finding that older dark grey 4 core these days is getting kinda tough though..

This is just more Hi-Fi hierarchy proof that nothing down the line from the source component can improve upon the tune.


"Naim 4-Core Source end":
RD/BL
CL/YL
Rega P10, Aphelion II, Aura. Naim CB 32.5/HC, Naxo 3-6/HC, 3x250 into K20/DMS.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Hi tpetsch,

It's very much my experience and opinions based on my preferences. I did say some speakers need an LP12 and then referred to the Kan in particular. I used the P10 with CB amps and passive Briks. Didn't live with it for long but it was a good combo during those few days.

I've not ventured into mods and just played it safe. I did have a Avondale'd Hicap for a while and enjoyed that but it's hard enough to partner this gear without adding more variables.

I didn't realise lavender was the lighter grey - I just assumed it was a modern cable I'd not come across. I've got one dark grey 4-pin SNAIC that I use with the 12/160 and an early 'thin' grey 4-pin that I use with the 42.5/110, so not actually using any lavender although I do own a few. I tried a modern black SNAIC and liked the detail but not the music.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote: 2022-08-12 17:13 Let me explain. I’ve taken up speaker building as a new hobby and, with the right mix of ingredients, I’m hearing rhythms I haven’t heard since the days of the Troika/Kans combo. So I’m pretty sure the Boazu has great rhythm too. Hopefully at some point I’ll be able to post a video to back it up.
I know what you mean. I keep meaning to say, the Jern speakers that have been promoted here as a great match for Boazu are available in the UK - I've seen a pair at a local Naim dealer a while back. Didn't hear them though and they are not a Lejonklou dealer.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Fred11 »

Interesting thread, Charlie
Before Boazu I had 82-250 and a beautiful recapped Nait 1. I used Neat iota alpha, Nait 1 lp12 (aro, Armageddon, adikt) and a nice Lk Gaio 1. The sound was groovy and nice. Boazu beat it with out loosing rhythm. Then I paired it with Jern speakers. It reminded me of the expressiveness of my old Sbls, which I accidentally sold and with the speed of Ibls, which I also owned. So Jern, Boazu is a prat-ful, and tuneful pair! I have two Boazu- Jern systems, and sometimes, like I did with Sbls On some music I can miss a little cuddlier softer speakers for some music, even though Jern is much more natural and full than they seem with their iron body, so contemplating of Grahams ls6 in one of the systems, but it might not be good enough.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Sounds promising Fred11 - I like what I'm reading :) I did try Boazu/Slipsik 7.1 into Kans and found it was quite different to modern and vintage Naim and it didn't really boogie / groove along as well as the CB Naim but, like I said before, the way I experience music is perhaps different to many. Anyway, my priorities for this system have shifted and I need something more tuneful than any Naim gear can offer, so I will try the Entity again shortly - this time without any Naim in the loop and Koil instead of Krystal.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Fred11 »

Interesting!
I remember listening to a reaggie tune, It was a Swedish reaggie legend Peps Blodsband with ‘ Styr den up!’, a cover of Marleys Stir it up.( this was with Neat Iota Alpha). The Nait had a little bit more drive and rhythm in the beginning of the tune, but when it became more complex longer into the song the Boazu presented the changes, interplay and musicality with more meaning and coherence. Many of the reviews on the Boazu describes a similar effect, that it is not especially ‘wow’ in the beginning, like Naim, rather it is very balanced and true to the recording and presents very complex pieces in a very coherent and musical way. When the song boogies, it boogies, but when it is calm it is calm. For me Naim was always full speed ahead all the time. But I can also see that you really like and vintage Naim, like I still do.
Regards
F
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks Fred! Interesting to read that. The fact that Spannko has enjoyed his Boazu so much also gives me confidence as we often share the same preferences in clips etc.

Vintage Naim is also not so good late at night at low volume - for me anyway - that's when it sounds slightly out of tune and the LK amps come into their own, but they are a bit of a long-term dead end as said before.

Another option is a late AK1 with MC phono which could probably see me right for 15+ years before sounding tired.

Last week I picked up a used Linto (circa 2000) but that's not doing anything for me for some reason, although it's clearly superior to the Wakonda MC in many ways. Both Kairns are now moved on.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Efraim roots »

I think JERN speakers are great, especially the 12WS which seems to be the sweet spot imho, with the scanspeak tweeter. I now have the JERN 15H which is less direct in pace and rhythm but much more tuneful and very, very good bass for such a small speaker. I tried my old kans mk1 the other day and they actually looked rather big in comparison. They sounded really great too but literally no bass in comparison. I haven't missed my nait, naims, kans or IBLs since I got Boazu and JERN12WS.

The other week I bought a really cool UK vintage amp though, the MYST TMA3 with a MC phono input. I play with it with my top spec LP12 with Krystal right now and I must say WOW. That's a cool piece of UK vintage amp, sounds really, really good! Anyone familiar with the Myst tma3? It's very musical!
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

No, but saw the HiFi Riff video on it - you were lucky to find one as they seem super rare.

The 12WS sounds promising. I'm not looking to replace the Kan 1s myself but thought Spannko might like the Jern's. Having said that, maybe I will give them a go once the amps are sorted.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Efraim roots »

The JERN 12WS are certainley worth a try since that kind of speaker performance is so rare! And yes I feel lucky regarding the Myst, funny enough I bought it from the same guy I bought my first naims from, my beloved original nait and NAP 110. Ten years later I also sourced another NAP110 from him which is just a few numbers off my first one, probably made in the same batch! AND when I got it, it was shipped in the original box of my first NAP110! That's crazy and was just a dream of mine, since I really wanted matched pairs using as monos. His wife call him a hifi addict, but I rather say hifi saint :D
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Great story.

LP12/42.5/110/Kans is a lovely system and what I thought I'd settled on - just doesn't quite work for me late at night.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Efraim roots »

Oh really. I have a 42.5 which is a lovely example with similar serial number as my 110's. I had several before aswell and I just don't get along with it. It sounds so incredibly upfront "glassy"/"steely". So I really miss a preamp for my NAP's, I also need pre with PSU so I can hook up my NAP110 as monos (NO MODS of course, good point earlier in this thread!). I was thinking that you Charlie1 might be my man to clear this issue for me. NAC12 with Snaps? But you are into 42.5, could you elaborate?
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

I find it impossible to predict what will and will not work with the older gear, and it's system dependant too. As yet, I've not been able to use the 12/BD160 with the Kans cos it sounds a bit distorted and peaky yet they work great with the Briks in the office - I will try again with Koil LP12.

I think all you can do is try things for yourself. Never thought my 42.5 sounded glassy/steely but there are so many variables. All I can say is that I found a really nice synergy with black liner bearing LP12/Lingo/Ekos 2/Adikt > 42.5/110 > Kan 1 (last version). My 42.5 has hand drawn boards so probably started life as a NAC 42. I had a really nice NAC 42 as well btw - defo not steely/glassy in either room. I can't remember, is all your stuff serviced?

I've been looking for a bolt down SNAPS to try with the NAC 12 but not found one yet. I prefer 12 straight into a pre-amp compared to the CB SNAPS if that helps. Have you got a NAC 12 now then?
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2022-08-15 14:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Efraim roots »

It helps Charlie1, thanks! I have yet not heard a NAC12 IRL, and I'm sad to hear you prefer it without Snaps since that is what I would need. I'm not surprised though, that's how I got my naim amps to sound at its best too, no psu for preamp, at least not hicap. I thought that snaps might be better. Otherwise it's really the supercap that does it in the naim world imo, haven't tried it on vintage gear though :)

No, none of my vintage preamps had service. My 42.5 has old serialnumber but not the arty circuit boards, I thought they replaced the whole board with the 42.5 upgrade? I really wanted the arty circuit boards. Are they more musical in general on your journey so far? Did you service vintage naim preamps? Mine is working perfectly and not a single crack or noise from the selector or volume pots. Maybe I should hook it up with my smooth JERN15H and listen for a while.

Did you service a nait 1? I'm a little afraid of that since they replace the psu cap with the one from nait 2 (higher value) and I'm afraid to lose the original magic.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Yes, red LED Nait 1 serviced and it was less funky/special afterwards. I'd probably leave the Nait 1 alone but be more tempted to service the other amps. I only use Naim or Class A (using Naim components) and servicing does change the sound. It becomes clearer and more tuneful but less coherent in another way - to my ears anyway. Coincidentally, It's a bit similar to the hand drawn circuits to the machine made ones - I think hand drawn has a more 'together' sound. Naim serviced my 12/BD160 and I was very pleased with the result - it added some vitality. There is a guy on PFM (lives in France) that swears by replacing everything on the boards but I reckon the only perfect solution is a TARDIS.

I found the CB SNAPS is more musical (with CB gear) than the CB HICAP, Olive HICAP, and modern HICAP DR btw. Never tried a Supercap though but like the HC DR, I doubt it will really have the right synergy. There is a chap here that posted clips of a 12 with and without bolt down SNAPS and we were quite divided and I wasn't 100% sure myself, so it's still worth you pursuing a bolt down SNAPS (or NAPS) if you come across one. Quite rare though. I should have bought one when I had the chance :) It's for this reason that I'd still like to try a bolt down 250 despite not 100% getting on with CB 250 or olive 250. As you know (you taught me in fact), it's a real challenge to build a balanced system, if you're picky :)
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2022-08-15 17:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Fred11 »

Efraim roots wrote: 2022-08-15 11:47 I think JERN speakers are great, especially the 12WS which seems to be the sweet spot imho, with the scanspeak tweeter. I now have the JERN 15H which is less direct in pace and rhythm but much more tuneful and very, very good bass for such a small speaker. I tried my old kans mk1 the other day and they actually looked rather big in comparison. They sounded really great too but literally no bass in comparison. I haven't missed my nait, naims, kans or IBLs since I got Boazu and JERN12WS.

The other week I bought a really cool UK vintage amp though, the MYST TMA3 with a MC phono input. I play with it with my top spec LP12 with Krystal right now and I must say WOW. That's a cool piece of UK vintage amp, sounds really, really good! Anyone familiar with the Myst tma3? It's very musical!
Dear Efraim
Wonderfull to hear you are still on the Jern-Boazu boat., which you so kindly introduced for some years ago. Very interesting with the 15h. Do you think the 12ws still has some strengths the 15h misses? I have the 14 Ds with sub in the living room and 12ws with some Linn indeks stands. Works really well now, but sometimes it can get a bit eager and wild on some music, mostly magic though. That’s why I thought about the Grahams also. Perhaps 15h could be something to consider?
Sorry to hijack the thread. Love the Naim-discussion.
Fred
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Spannko »

I’ve only ever heard a 12 once. It was with a NAPS (not SNAPS) power supply and it totally spanked a 52/SuperCap (into a 250 and Isobariks). The chap who owned it knew it was good and wouldn’t let it go for love nor money!
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

Still never heard a 52 but it seemed to mark a slight change of direction for Naim with broader appeal. Ultimately, my preferences align closer to Julian than Guy or Roy who later took the design leads. I did like the .5 update though, but the Nait 2/62/72/HC/140/Geddon were backwards steps for me and whilst the IBL/SBL had their advantages, I'd rather take a pair of Keilidhs, let alone Kans/Saras/Briks. I tried one NAP180 but it was so tired and in need of a service that I couldn't really draw a conclusion - I wasn't motivated enough to get it serviced.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by matthias »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-08-16 09:15 Still never heard a 52 but it seemed to mark a slight change of direction for Naim with broader appeal.
About 25 years ago I owned 52/SC/250 but went then for Exposure 13/21/4DR which I found more musically satisfying.
The Exposures stayed until today but were severely modified by me.
Matt

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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

matthias wrote: 2022-08-16 10:04 About 25 years ago I owned 52/SC/250 but went then for Exposure 13/21/4DR which I found more musically satisfying.
The Exposures stayed until today but were severely modified by me.
I like the old Exposure stuff a lot. I bought the XV over an Intek and some others that I don't recall - they didn't do Naim. Good match for my first LP12 and Kan 2s. I listened to some of their pre/power amps first though, intending just to get an amp upgrade - that was until I heard LP12/Kans. They were really enjoyable - I compared them against LK1/LK280 and preferred Exposure.

Did you ever compare your amps to CB Naim?
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by matthias »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-08-16 10:13 Did you ever compare your amps to CB Naim?
Unfortunately not,
the LK1/LK280 were my first serious amps, then later various Naims (olives only) and up to date Exposures.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by Charlie1 »

matthias wrote: 2022-08-16 11:22 Unfortunately not,
the LK1/LK280 were my first serious amps, then later various Naims (olives only) and up to date Exposures.
I have an Exposure-serviced XV Super (MM) but it's not quite up there with CB Naim. I think that amp probably signalled a change for Exposure and a shift in voicing to better accommodate CD. Very good value for £350 though.
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Re: Vintage Amps

Post by markiteight »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-08-15 11:33 Last week I picked up a used Linto (circa 2000) but that's not doing anything for me for some reason, although it's clearly superior to the Wakonda MC in many ways. Both Kairns are now moved on.
Do you know where the gain is set on your Linto? The lower gain level is musically superior to the default configuration.
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