Perfection/Imperfection

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Arjen
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Perfection/Imperfection

Post by Arjen »

At this forum most of us are busy optimizing devices, gear, and setups in order to optimize the performance of the deliverance of the music. By looking for upgrades, following the upgrade road developed by Linn, by Fredrik, by others. Or by endlessly tweaking with (DIY) accessoires.
Will there be an end of perfection in the end? And is that beneficial for the musicality of the setup? Or is some imperfection deliberately left more supporting musicality, more engaging in the end? Just asking.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by Charlie1 »

I don't think people will stop trying to improve their music replay

Struggling to answer the other questions
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by lejonklou »

I don’t know or care what perfection means. My aim is to maximise the thrill I experience when listening to music. That’s what it’s all about.

Every step, big or small, that increases my thrill is a step in the right direction. There are plenty of traps and pitfalls along the way and sometimes we fall into them. Using the Tune Method to evaluate each step is the best way to avoid that and correct the course.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by Arjen »

Charlie, are we programmed by the audio industry or is trial and error to improve what we love to hear a fundamental audio-human need in itself? And then, to what cost, musical, financial and WAF related?
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by Arjen »

Agree Fredrik, music is all about thrill and engagement,, Pitfalls and traps are indeed risks of the proces of upgrading. DIY upgrading is funny and joy, upgrading devices by professional lovers can result in more thrill and engagement. But don’t you think the danger of our personal need of improvement can be exploited by other companies with a a risk of downgrading musical effect?
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by lejonklou »

Absolutely! That’s why its so important to critically evaluate every change.

I make HiFi equipment because I love the benefits they can bring to our life. I’m not in it to make money. I want fiercely critical, educated customers. The kind that tells me when I haven’t done well enough. And then I try to do better.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by springwood64 »

Arjen wrote: 2022-07-04 23:58 Charlie, are we programmed by the audio industry or is trial and error to improve what we love to hear a fundamental audio-human need in itself? And then, to what cost, musical, financial and WAF related?
I get a distinct buzz when I make a change to my system and I hear an improvement. So I enjoy that moment.

However, sometimes an 'improvement' turns out to be a degradation, and I experience a gradual discomfort, until it gets too much and I revert the change.

So for me there is something additional going on - it's not just the thrill of the music - there's an element of the thrill of the change, tempered sometimes by the pain of loss.

And if the change is for the worse, the thrill of the music is degraded and regaining that thrill, overcoming the loss, trumps the faded thrill of change.

For most of this year I've been enjoying the thrill of the music, especially discovering new music, but I know at some point I'll feel the pressure to seek again the thrill of the change.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-07-05 00:35 Absolutely! That’s why its so important to critically evaluate every change.

I make HiFi equipment because I love the benefits they can bring to our life. I’m not in it to make money. I want fiercely critical, educated customers. The kind that tells me when I haven’t done well enough. And then I try to do better.
This is why Lejonklou equipment is so superior to other units I have heard. Some other companies would make a product with a musical flaw and wouldn't admit it or correct it (many others don't even care if their equipment or cables are musical as long as they are impressive so that they can get into your wallet). Fredrik hears a complaint about the musicality of a firmware upgrade by a small percentage of listeners, listens again and decides they are right, and starts to work on finding a solution.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by ThomasOK »

Back to the original questions. I have said before here and will say again that there is no such thing as perfection on the physical plane of existence (nor the astral plane for that matter although it is closer). All we can do is get close. Then you have to define what perfection means in audio reproduction and I feel Fredrik's definition makes the most sense as music is an emotional communication from one person or group to another. So whatever makes that emotional conversation most effective is by definition the closest to perfection. I know Fredrik says he doesn't understand perfection, and on a human level none of us do. But he practices perfection all the time. What else would you call testing every component he can get his hands on to find a more musical capacitor to go into a power supply or a more musical lock washer to help fasten the ground connection to the chassis.

"is trial and error to improve what we hear a fundamental audio-human need in itself?" I would say obviously not as there is such a small part of the population who engage in it. Fewer still are effective at making true musical improvements in their systems, at least in part because of the ability of many in the industry to lead audiophiles in directions that have little to do with musical perfromance and more to do with temporary excitement. I think there is a certain mindset that leads people to become as interested in music reproduction as the members of this forum are. It starts with being excited with music in the first place, then hearing that some equipment can bring us more of that excitement, and then being interested enough in why those differences exist to search for ways to make it better. While most everyone enjoys music, not everyone is equally excited by it. Unfortunately most also don't have the opportunity to hear good examples of how much better it can be, a problem that can be laid at the feet of this industry where the amount of money a company can separate from you is most often more important than how much joy they can bring you. The industry has changed a lot since the 60s and 70s and I don't think most of it has musically been an uphill movement.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by tpetsch »

But don't modern audio manufacturers need to make compromises these days?

When I bought my CB Naim system in the late 80's Digital was not a factor yet, and Naim & Linn -for instance- was free to design a system based on Analog playback exclusively & it's now my impression that these days manufacturers need to build Pre-amps/amps & speakers in an attempt to satisfy both Vinyl and Digital mediums and in effect ultimately compromising both to find that average that gets both mediums to play well together within the same system..
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by Charlie1 »

Arjen wrote: 2022-07-04 23:58 Charlie, are we programmed by the audio industry or is trial and error to improve what we love to hear a fundamental audio-human need in itself? And then, to what cost, musical, financial and WAF related?
I'm sorry Arjen but I don't fully understand the question.

I certainly don't think everyone has a fundamental need to improve their music sources.

Back to your first post, I don't expect to find perfection either.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by Arjen »

Charlie, what I mean is we as consumers are programmed in a lot of ways, the way we feed ourselves, the way we dress, the daily way we travel, the way we listen to music probably as well, all for the benefit of commerce. So, what is left to our free will in this context and in contexts of peers and family? What is our free will in relation to our own genuine needs? I myself love to try and stumble onto higher audio grounds (for better following and understanding the music), but at the same time have to be careful not to drown in some audio myth created by industry and commerce. Apart from that, some imperfection in my opinion might give more thrill and engagement than (clinic) perfection.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by Charlie1 »

OK, I see what you mean.

I was originally a tape listener. I suppose I got into CD for a mix of convenience and the sort of programming you talk about. However, I only got into HiFi cos I wasn't enjoying music off of CDs. If I'd have stuck with cassettes then I may never have started down this road. It was dissatisfaction that initiated it, not society as a whole telling me I needed better sound.
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Re: Perfection/Imperfection

Post by Arjen »

Good narrative Charlie. Everyone has his own genuine trigger and motive. Main thing is we will keep our happiness on this high road, can enjoy low roads as well and accept some limit of our wanting (in terms of following commercial revenue models).
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