Is Källa the GOAT?

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by lejonklou »

markiteight wrote: 2022-06-11 22:03All of this is to say I would exercise caution when trying to evaluate musical and sonic performance separately. If the goal is to evaluate a product's ability to reproduce music, doing so will likely just add confusion and complication to the process. If it plays the music better, it is better.
I agree with you here, markiteight. Personally I never divide performance into music and sound, because usually I can't really tell them apart. I just react to comparisons with better or worse.

When bringing loudspeakers into the discussion, however, I find that things get tricky. While I wouldn't vote for Linn Kan as the best loudspeaker of all time, I do find them really musical. But did I keep any of my two pairs? No, I exchanged them for bigger and more fullrange speakers. Were they better than Kan in every aspect? Probably not. This points to that I am in some cases judging musical and sonic performance separately. At least in loudspeakers.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-06-13 20:57This points to that I am in some cases judging musical and sonic performance separately. At least in loudspeakers.
Kan 1 is similar to the Nait 1 , it's hard to get enough types of music/songs within their effective working range, so in the best interest of music as a whole, even their biggest fans are eventually forced to move on. Kan 2 and Nait 2 are a little more forgiving but still not broad enough for most people in the long run. They can all make fine second systems though.
tpetsch
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 342
Joined: 2020-08-17 18:46
Location: United States

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by tpetsch »

Spannko wrote: 2022-06-13 16:29 Actually tpetsch, I said exactly the opposite!!! And, I suggested that the Dynavector amplifiers could possibly qualify as being musically and sonically excellent.

Personally, I agree with you about the LP12. For me, it’s the most musical turntable I’ve ever heard, but the most musical LP12’s have a fulsome (yet still very tuneful) bottom end which some people don’t like.
Good points, the LP12 is Tuneful no doubt but it ain't "neutral", maybe the new Klimax reaches towards more neutrality these days but I can't confirm that, but I can see why owners of speakers such as Quads and Kans can appreciate the added artificial "bottom end' , and it's not just bottom end, in reality it's an overall heaviness air throughout the whole range.

This also brings me to a little bit of a revelation of sorts I'm having, and why it was perhaps that Linn went so heavy into the whole Aktiv range being the pinnacle of the Linn -and Naim at the time- hierarchy, sure it was marketing and a way for dealers to stay in business, but I'm now realizing that Linns full range speakers suffered somewhat from the LP12's bloatedness. I remember going from Isobariks with passive external x-overs to Aktive Isobariks and I was overjoyed by the overall musicality of the change, all my other equipment stayed the same, I just added two more 250's plus a Naxo 3/6 and a HC. But now looking back I'm thinking that what the move to Aktiv did was to push the system sound more towards neutrality, because I do remember my thinking at the time was that I had lost some bottom end -but this was in fact, in retrospect, a lower end smearing/muddiness- but I had gained an overall more balanced and enjoyable system. But now I can say -30 years later- that what the Aktiv 'upgrade" really did was help quell, or control the faults of the LP12, to make it sound more neutral. ...And then later why the Keltik and Komri was only offered in Aktiv mode, but after the Keltik system -and namely the Bill Miller designed Klout/Kairn, what ever happened to him anyway?- it was all over for LINN, "Analog speaking" anyway IMO, I never understood Linns direction when they moved forward with the Klimax amps to be honest.
Rega P10, Aphelion II, Aura. Naim CB 32.5/HC, Naxo 3-6/HC, 3x250 into K20/DMS.
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Charlie1 »

tpetsch wrote: 2022-06-13 22:16I never understood Linns direction when they moved forward with the Klimax amps to be honest.
I think they got better in many ways but, probably without realising, sacrificed a sense of connection or synchronisation between musicians, making them more coherent for some but less coherent to other listeners. That's how I hear things anyway. It means that even a lowly Nait 5i or Exposure XV can sound more coherent and rhythmic than Linn amps. My LK-era amps certainly don't compete with my vintage Naim in this respect - It's really clear on some tracks, but on many others, the LK amps easily make up for it. Perhaps this is why I've never heard a "cake and eat it" amp and don't expect to find one. Of course, that's not to say any one of these cannot be someone else's GOAT.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2022-06-13 23:02, edited 1 time in total.
tpetsch
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 342
Joined: 2020-08-17 18:46
Location: United States

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by tpetsch »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-06-13 22:26
tpetsch wrote: 2022-06-13 22:16I never understood Linns direction when they moved forward with the Klimax amps to be honest.
It was all about the tune :)

But they sacrificed ever more grooviness / rhythm alone the way - I'm not sure everyone hears it this way though. For me, even LK-era amps can't compete with vintage Naim there - It's really clear to me on some tracks, but on many others the LK amps make up for it in other ways. I've not heard a cake and eat it amp, including Lejonklou. Heard a Dynavector system too but only the once. Of course, that's not to say any one of these cannot be someone else's GOAT.
Ok, so your saying Linn, with the Klimax gear basically sucked the life -aka "Fun"- out of the music in an attempt to find more "Tune". ...OK, I'm not disagreeing with you, I have a few friends that bought full blown Klimax/Komri systems -one still has it, sold off the CD12 and replaced it with the previous Klimax DSM/Preamp combo- and honestly, most times I can't wait to get home to listen my my setup, we did however offer to move his system into a better room but the wife won't have it. ...I basically just chalk it down to it all being growing pains for Linn's move into the Hi-End Digital domain and a seemingly inbetween compromise of gear design that tries to satisfy the listeners of both Digital & Vinyl playback but not fully achieving either, and again, maybe the new Klimax LP12 will work better here. ...But yea, Personally, I was always drawn more to the Naim Chrome sound than the "overly analytical?" Linn sound as far as "grooviness" goes Charlie. Also, I'm a strict Analog guy, I have yet to move into digital concerning my main system, and with the addition of the P10 I got more of all of it IMO, more analytical, better insight into the music, no loss of "Tune" as far as I can tell, and yup. I'm going to say it, better PRaT, and most of all a gain in "Rocking" & "grooviness" :)

I guess in many ways Naims -Julian Vereker's hands on- Chrome Bumper System -32.5 135, 250, etc- and in some respects Linns Kairn / Klout system was both company's Last Hurrah's concerning "Dedicated Analog" playback systems, more tuned to maximize analog playback with Digital somewhat still on the horizon. ..I'm not sure, but I get the feeling these days that many modern systems in an attempt to satisfy both mediums fall a little short mainly on the Analog reproduction side with an emphasis & business decision shift twards the Digital playback end.
Rega P10, Aphelion II, Aura. Naim CB 32.5/HC, Naxo 3-6/HC, 3x250 into K20/DMS.
Ben Webster
Member
Member
Posts: 18
Joined: 2020-04-14 10:35
Location: Frankfurt a. M. / Germany

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Ben Webster »

In the last years I recognised that Linn become better and better … in a technical way. I can understand why a lot of people use Linn Space Optimisation (definitely not my cup of tea), Exakt (is it really the same step like going from passiv to active?) or Karousel (huge technical improvement without losing musicality?). Last but not least Radikal II (some still like Lingo 3).

I think the gap between Linn and other manufacturers become closer, because Linn lose the sound signature of the 80s/90s which some people (like me) translate with musicality. And a lot of other manufacturers are at least on the same technical level like Linn.

I have a simple - may be wrong - theory: components, who reproduce only things they can reproduce (like Kan I) have a huge potential to be musical. When they try to reproduce more (like 350, sorry) are less musical.
kampak
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 99
Joined: 2013-10-18 18:10
Location: Germany

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by kampak »

Yep, Ben: your last sentence does it for me. I think the same for years.
In my youth I was sometimes attracted by sound that showed me so much more than I could hear in „lesser systems“, but over the years my belly told (gut feeling) me sometimes otherwise and was right.
I dont want to hear more of everything… but the rest has to be „right“ to to have fun in the long run.
Linn-Lejonklou-Kudos
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Charlie1 »

tpetsch wrote: 2022-06-13 23:01 Ok, so your saying Linn, with the Klimax gear basically sucked the life -aka "Fun"- out of the music in an attempt to find more "Tune". ...OK, I'm not disagreeing with you, I have a few friends that bought full blown Klimax/Komri systems -one still has it, sold off the CD12 and replaced it with the previous Klimax DSM/Preamp combo- and honestly, most times I can't wait to get home to listen my my setup, we did however offer to move his system into a better room but the wife won't have it.
Not saying they suck the like out. They're just not the best at everything to my ears. I did re-word my post so maybe that makes more sense. Hard to describe some of these things. I think it also depends on the listener - for some people, what Linn amps do is all they need them to do, for others they can be lacking is some way, but then I don't expect anyone to be able to make a GOAT amp.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Spannko »

kampak wrote: 2022-06-14 09:10 Yep, Ben: your last sentence does it for me. I think the same for years.
In my youth I was sometimes attracted by sound that showed me so much more than I could hear in „lesser systems“, but over the years my belly told (gut feeling) me sometimes otherwise and was right.
I dont want to hear more of everything… but the rest has to be „right“ to to have fun in the long run.
This is exactly how I feel kampak - for me now, it’s time to stop chasing rainbows and put together a system which is “just” good enough, which for me is one that doesn’t have any faults (music or sound) which draw my attention away from the music. Unfortunately, this is far easier said than done, particularly since most manufacturers seem to be chasing more customers with an impressive sound these days.
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Lego »

The simple fact is when it comes to audio reproduction there are generally quite a few tradeoffs,the problem is a lot of hifi manufacturers audiophile/music lovers etc tend to have a hard time coming to terms with this or believe they have/make the best hifi system in the world and that all else is gaslight (HVK) 😄
I know that tune
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Charlie1 »

Top two Google definitions for HVK are 'Hvidovre Volleyball Klub' and 'Human Vaginal Keratinocytes' - not sure which is right...

EDIT: Ah, Herbert!
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2039
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by tokenbrit »

Charlie1 wrote: 2022-06-15 09:01 Top two Google definitions for HVK are 'Hvidovre Volleyball Klub' and 'Human Vaginal Keratinocytes' - not sure which is right...

EDIT: Ah, Herbert!
von Karajan? Nomination for greatest Conductor Of All Time? (or should I get my COAT? ;)
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by ThomasOK »

Well, I only dipped my toe into this for a few reasons. First, on a metaphysical level I feel there is only one GOAT (although most spell Her name with a single letter replacing the last two) and everything else is maya (delusion). Second, I have a hard time with the idea of evaluating musical perfromance and sound separately. Can something really be musical and sound bad or vice versa? It doesn't square with my experience. Third, for something to be Greatest Of All Time I would expect it would have to be around for a while to earn that title, otherwise it is greatest of the moment.

All that said if I was pressed to name GOAT products the two that would be at the top of the list would be the Linn Sondek LP12 and the original Quad ESL. These are two products that have stood the test of time by still being considered references by a fair number of people even a half century or more after they were introduced. The reason I put SINGularity up first is that it is the only product I know of that I believe was designed and built with no compromises in design, parts selection or execution in order to be the most musical product of its type attainable. (I know that there are others that are built to high price levels and with claimed best practices, and I haven't really heard any of them, but my expectation is that the complexity evident in most such designs would preclude them attaining the same level of musicality that the SINGularity most certainly does.)

But there is another group of products that while I wouldn't call them GOAT, for the reasons stated above, I consider instead to be State of the Art - emphasis on Art. These are the products that reproduce music so beautifully that it is hard to imagine anything being better. Eventually something comes along which is better, often from the same company, but until you hear that product you can't hear what was missing in the older product. There have been a number of such products and many of them from the usual suspects: Linn LP12, Ekos 2, Troika, Akiva, Kandid, CD12, Klimax DS, Isobarik DMS/PMS, Kan, Karin, Klout, Naim 32, 250, 135s, etc. Currently I find that more come from Fredrik Lejonklou than anybody else as I would class the SINGularity, Källa, Sagatun Monos and Tundra Monos all there. I'd also still put the LP12 there along with the Ekos SE/1 and Ekstatik. Not a particularly long list and one that interestingly doesn't include any current speakers.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
tpetsch
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 342
Joined: 2020-08-17 18:46
Location: United States

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by tpetsch »

tokenbrit wrote: 2022-06-15 13:26
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-06-15 09:01 Top two Google definitions for HVK are 'Hvidovre Volleyball Klub' and 'Human Vaginal Keratinocytes' - not sure which is right...

EDIT: Ah, Herbert!
von Karajan? Nomination for greatest Conductor Of All Time? (or should I get my COAT? ;)
Wow, and here I am always thinking the guy was vastly overrated, overemphasizing and over dramatizing pretty much all the works he conducted that I have heard.
Rega P10, Aphelion II, Aura. Naim CB 32.5/HC, Naxo 3-6/HC, 3x250 into K20/DMS.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Spannko »

It feels like the goats gene pool is suffering from a bit of dilution! Where are the reasonably faultless tune players which also have a reasonably faultless sound?
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2039
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by tokenbrit »

tpetsch wrote: 2022-06-15 19:00
tokenbrit wrote: 2022-06-15 13:26
Charlie1 wrote: 2022-06-15 09:01 Top two Google definitions for HVK are 'Hvidovre Volleyball Klub' and 'Human Vaginal Keratinocytes' - not sure which is right...

EDIT: Ah, Herbert!
von Karajan? Nomination for greatest Conductor Of All Time? (or should I get my COAT? ;)
Wow, and here I am always thinking the guy was vastly overrated, overemphasizing and over dramatizing pretty much all the works he conducted that I have heard.
That was why I said nomination... or, possibly, the HVK itself was the gaslighting ;)
Arjen
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 431
Joined: 2021-06-10 13:23
Location: NL and Friesland

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Arjen »

ThomasOK wrote: 2022-06-15 18:02 Second, I have a hard time with the idea of evaluating musical perfromance and sound separately. Can something really be musical and sound bad or vice versa? It doesn't square with my experience.
Tom, In my opinion sometimes sometime can sound maybe not too good but perform musically well the same time. I remember listening to music in the sixties, Radio Luxembourg on my simple Sharp Transistor Radio. Twas exciting, more than anything else in the nowadays mid and high end league. Maybe just because of your emotional stage those back days. My Sharp radio delivered what I loved and was longing for, music that made me happy, set me free, connected me with my peers. So Sharp was GOAT in a way in those days. Fifty years later there is other needs, other circumstances, technology development, other references, other peers too, fora like this. Giving an age bias. So the Q of GOAT is a relative and rather subjective issue, dependent not only on the gear itself, but on how you experience life itself in your stage of life and the level of eagerness for improvement Relevant in a forum bubble maybe, but might be worthless outside the bubble, in real (family) life itself.
Lenco 76/S TJN, Dr. Fuss, Supernait2, CD5X, Slipsik7.1, Millon Phantom, Soundeck, AudioSensibility
Arjen
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 431
Joined: 2021-06-10 13:23
Location: NL and Friesland

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Arjen »

Can someone tell me in the GOAT context whether the Linn Launch 2022 will deliver new GOATs by enhancement the performance of Linn devices in terms of musicality and sound or is Linns support of our road to vinyl perfection more or less also a necessary revenue model for them to survive in the business. 50 years in high end business is of course an achievement in itself and deserves a congrat.
Lenco 76/S TJN, Dr. Fuss, Supernait2, CD5X, Slipsik7.1, Millon Phantom, Soundeck, AudioSensibility
User avatar
Tendaberry
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2010-08-30 16:08
Location: Hamburg

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Tendaberry »

As very few of us (if any) have heard the new products yet, that's hard to tell. But I think the new tonearm Arko looks very promising, being designed and built by Linn. And having heard the Ekstatik, I'm pretty sure the Kendo will be excellent too. The new AT OC9-range has received very good reviews elsewhere and Linn has found a way to improve it further, so as an entry-level MC cartridge, I'm sure the Koil will make sense. Nevertheless, the Adikt is no slouch, so time will tell, if any of the new ones will reach GOAT-status. But being mid-range products, I doubt any of them will.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Spannko »

Arjen wrote: 2022-06-17 09:34 Can someone tell me in the GOAT context whether the Linn Launch 2022 will deliver new GOATs by enhancement the performance of Linn devices in terms of musicality and sound or is Linns support of our road to vinyl perfection more or less also a necessary revenue model for them to survive in the business. 50 years in high end business is of course an achievement in itself and deserves a congrat.
I would say no. There are no new statement products, which suggests that all of the new products will be compromised either musically or sonically compared to what’s already on offer. GOATS are extremely rare, as they should be! Expanding the definition of GOAT to our personal favourites may make us feel better, but unless there’s some kind of universal agreement, we’re just kidding ourselves!
Azazello
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 630
Joined: 2007-01-30 21:59
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Azazello »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-06-11 19:57 Too flattering! :)

Actually three pairs of SINGularity have been built and the fourth will be completed and shipped this month. Building that pair is pretty much all I’ve been doing these last few weeks.

I’d like to put the LP12 in that GOAT territory. It’s not a single product, of course, but an entire range. But still, it’s just fantastic. Doesn’t have to be the latest, in fact I prefer it a little older. But even serial number 008 in its original state, which I once serviced in the mid 90’s, could play a tune that I doubt any, or at least extremely few, turntables of today could challenge.
You are the GOAT Fredrik.

LP12 sounds like garbage if its not constantly maintained by some maniac with super powers. I hate LP12 for its ability to disappoint me.
Azazello
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 630
Joined: 2007-01-30 21:59
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by Azazello »

Arjen wrote: 2022-06-17 09:34 Can someone tell me in the GOAT context whether the Linn Launch 2022 will deliver new GOATs by enhancement the performance of Linn devices in terms of musicality and sound or is Linns support of our road to vinyl perfection more or less also a necessary revenue model for them to survive in the business. 50 years in high end business is of course an achievement in itself and deserves a congrat.
Linn has gradually turned into crap since Ivor left.
teatime
Active member
Active member
Posts: 167
Joined: 2007-02-11 23:37

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by teatime »

Azazello wrote: 2022-07-01 10:33 Linn has gradually turned into crap since Ivor left.
No, they haven't.
champton90
New member
New member
Posts: 8
Joined: 2018-06-21 01:44

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by champton90 »

Azazello wrote: 2022-07-01 10:31
lejonklou wrote: 2022-06-11 19:57 Too flattering! :)

Actually three pairs of SINGularity have been built and the fourth will be completed and shipped this month. Building that pair is pretty much all I’ve been doing these last few weeks.

I’d like to put the LP12 in that GOAT territory. It’s not a single product, of course, but an entire range. But still, it’s just fantastic. Doesn’t have to be the latest, in fact I prefer it a little older. But even serial number 008 in its original state, which I once serviced in the mid 90’s, could play a tune that I doubt any, or at least extremely few, turntables of today could challenge.
You are the GOAT Fredrik.

LP12 sounds like garbage if its not constantly maintained by some maniac with super powers. I hate LP12 for its ability to disappoint me.
That last part has me rolling!! Hahahahaha I love sarcasm! 😂
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Is Källa the GOAT?

Post by ThomasOK »

Azazello wrote: 2022-07-01 10:31 You are the GOAT Fredrik.

LP12 sounds like garbage if its not constantly maintained by some maniac with super powers. I hate LP12 for its ability to disappoint me.
Hmmm? Should I change my avatar to a Deadpool image? ;-)
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Post Reply