Platter Damping (split from: The LP12 just got better (again))

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-01-28 00:23

Just a question of damping a turntable. I ‘m damping my Lenco 76/S chassis and downside the inner circle of the platter with bitumen with a great significant result in performance, following some Lencoheaven examples. Did anyone the same upgrade with for example Sondek LP12?

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2022-01-28 00:40

Damping pretty much anything on an LP12, and especially the platters and sub chassis, is a recipe for messed up music. Over the last 10 to 20 years I have had several people bring me LP12s with damping in various places requesting that I remove it and return it to stock as they could never get into the music as well after it had been so modified. They were all much happier when I ripped that stuff all out and returned the LP12 to stock, with a proper setup as well.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2022-01-28 01:41

I have the same experiences as Thomas in this regard. And I'll add that I have never heard it work on any other turntable either. When I was in retail in the 90's, we had a lot of different turntables in for service and whenever we found added damping to the original design, we'd try with it on and off together with the owner. Can't recall any instance when we found extra damping made the music any better.

What damping usually brings a perceived increase in detail at the cost of the whole. So I recommend critically listening for the whole of the performance and be aware of the trap of a perceived increase in detail. And when one finds a tweak that appears to work, leave it in for a while and then try removing it again with the same hope for a possible improvement as when it was first added.

springwood64 · Post by **springwood64** » 2022-01-28 08:17

lejonklou wrote: ↑2022-01-28 01:41 And when one finds a tweak that appears to work, leave it in for a while and then try removing it again with the same hope for a possible improvement as when it was first added.

I have found myself doing this a few times in the last couple of years with different tweaks. I find listening to a variety of music over a few days or even a couple of weeks helps build up a picture of how I am responding to the music, and removing a subtle tweak that initially appeared to improve but ultimately degrades the music brings a sense of relief.

In a sense I am judging the tweak not by listening to or analysing the music, but by paying attention to my response to the music. I don't think this qualifies as the tune method, but where the change is subtle and especially where there is an apparent improvement in detail, I have come to rely on this to gain more enjoyment from the music and my evolving system.

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-01-28 14:29

Thank you Tom, Fredrik and Pete for your impressions, conclusions and suggestions. My impressions this week are that the performance of my Lenco has more ‘body’’ and i’m aware of more details too, all integral as a whole. It is like churchbells chiming during the day you ‘re not hearing or aware of, but in the night you hear them calling, because background noises are gone. Above all most albums I played are more gripping, leaving me sometime even astonished, significant different then before the bitumen tweak. I can (still) pleasantly follow the music, the voices, the tunes.
Linn Sondek LP12 might be optimized in damping already and the Vintage Lenco’s might not. i don’t know.
I’m sharing the next days, weeks my experience with a friend who did the same with his Lenco and had the same impressions as me. This guy is a Barritone in some famous Dutch/Belgian/German chamberchoirs with a good couple of ears and listening experience. So I bring in your nuanced opinions in our listening experience and discussion. To be continued.

Defender · Post by **Defender** » 2022-01-28 14:37

maybe some before and after recordings would help

Tendaberry · Post by **Tendaberry** » 2022-01-28 16:33

Defender wrote: ↑2022-01-28 14:37 maybe some before and after recordings would help

I agree, then you could have reliable second opinions.

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2022-01-28 17:17

Arjen wrote: ↑2022-01-28 14:29 Thank you Tom, Fredrik and Pete for your impressions, conclusions and suggestions. My impressions this week are that the performance of my Lenco has more ‘body’’ and i’m aware of more details too, all integral as a whole. It is like churchbells chiming during the day you ‘re not hearing or aware of, but in the night you hear them calling, because background noises are gone. Above all most albums I played are more gripping, leaving me sometime even astonished, significant different then before the bitumen tweak. I can (still) pleasantly follow the music, the voices, the tunes.
Linn Sondek LP12 might be optimized in damping already and the Vintage Lenco’s might not. i don’t know.
I’m sharing the next days, weeks my experience with a friend who did the same with his Lenco and had the same impressions as me. This guy is a Barritone in some famous Dutch/Belgian/German chamberchoirs with a good couple of ears and listening experience. So I bring in your nuanced opinions in our listening experience and discussion. To be continued.

Enjoy your listening experiences Arjen, looking forward to hearing what you guys discover.

Cheers

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-01-28 17:36

I will Tony. My friend says it might be dependent on the equipment, the speakers and definitely on ones personal taste. Until now his conclusie is that the performance to his ears is more tasteful by the tweak. To be continued.

Ianw · Post by **Ianw** » 2022-01-28 18:35

On a similar vein: I tried a Tiger Paw Tranquility on my Klimax LP12. It lasted a few weeks before removing it.
After careful installation of the Tranquility there was immediately more perceived detail in the mid range. However, the balance didn’t suit me, the music had gone as a trade for detail and the bass was nowhere as good. Tranquility removed and music was back. It wasn’t a snap decision as I gave it a good shot over a few weeks.

Some folk like it but not for me although it was s very well engineered piece.

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-01-28 22:48

first time I hear of this company. I read some of the Tiger Paw thread. Their philosophy is to raising the bar of performance of the LP12 by producing devices like the Tranquility hoping this will result in decoding more details and music. It is a market because of a lot of us try to optimize the performance of their turntable. Linn with its own internal market, Tiger Paw and others external competing. Reading the tread it is trial and error, with the Tranquility first some experience more detail and lower noisefloor, but later experience a problem with soundstage of the vocals.
I never heard of Tiger Paw, but for the LP12 owners I wish they read the reviews in the Tiger Paw thread, for improving their own products as well.
So interesting Lanw. It ‘ll give me a better idea and frame of listening in order to judge my bitumen tweaking. A tweak after Troels Gravesen (from Denmark), who says for restoring a Lenco the bitumen on the chassis is a vital step, he says “it works wonder”. Until now I think he’s right, In my experience it is not failing like the Tranquility. But I take my time to judge it myself after more playing hours and different music styles.
To be continued.

V.A.MKD · Post by **V.A.MKD** » 2022-01-29 13:02

Tendaberry wrote: ↑2022-01-28 16:33
Defender wrote: ↑2022-01-28 14:37 maybe some before and after recordings would help
I agree, then you could have reliable second opinions.

+1 and also if possible try to do it with Tune Method, it is excellent tool ... with that tool LP12 is where it is today ...

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2022-01-29 13:08

Arjen wrote: ↑2022-01-28 22:48 Reading the tread it is trial and error, with the Tranquility first some experience more detail and lower noisefloor, but later experience a problem with soundstage of the vocals.

These are hifi terms, the Tranquility did not perform well playing the tune (as ianw expressed it).

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-01-29 23:09

V.A.MKD wrote: ↑2022-01-29 13:02
Tendaberry wrote: ↑2022-01-28 16:33
Defender wrote: ↑2022-01-28 14:37 maybe some before and after recordings would help
I agree, then you could have reliable second opinions.
+1 and also if possible try to do it with Tune Method, it is excellent tool ... with that tool LP12 is where it is today ...

The Tune Method I used successfully by a new cartridge, new phono preamp and speaker placement. So I agree using the Tune Method would be a good practice to make good comparison, but only with similar vintage (not damped) platter. I can look for one. But almost impossible using the tune method in case of the chassis damping, that is hard to bring it back to how it was without and than damp it again. Pity I’ve not the opportunity for another, bitumenfree, L76/S to make a comparison. But a friend of mine might have that opportunity as a repairer/refurbisher/upgrader of vintage (Lenco) turntables. For now, to me music by the current newly damped Lenco L76/S is a truly pleasant, not at all tiresome, listen. To be continued.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2022-02-03 21:47

Thomas, do you have any experience with a successful damping of a turntable? Platter, plinth, motor, inner chassis, tonarm, headshell or any other part?

I'm asking because as I mentioned above, I don't have any. But I suspect you've seen more turntables than I have, and likely a wider variety as well.

That they don't work on any Linn or Rega turntables I'm confident we agree on.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2022-02-04 00:54

lejonklou wrote: ↑2022-02-03 21:47 Thomas, do you have any experience with a successful damping of a turntable? Platter, plinth, motor, inner chassis, tonarm, headshell or any other part?

I'm asking because as I mentioned above, I don't have any. But I suspect you've seen more turntables than I have, and likely a wider variety as well.

That they don't work on any Linn or Rega turntables I'm confident we agree on.

No, I really haven't. On the other hand I don't go automatically ripping such stuff out without the permission of the owner. I'm sure there have been tables I have worked on that have such materials either added afterwards or as part of the design. I've never heard one of those that particularly impressed me but I haven't been able to do before and after tests on them. Definitely doesn't work on Linn or Rega turntables.

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-02-05 00:26

As not owning a Sondek LP12 I’ve never read a setup instruction for this TT. There’s the warning against users modifications, modifications that would impede the energy delivered by record and TT. So no damping the chassis,, no other mat than the Linn felt, no clamp or weight. No bassflemish actions.
If Linn has reach its optimum with the LP12, I can follow their arguments. Protecting the architecture of their product and their own upgrade devices I can understand. Although there are some tweakingbrands who claim there products will give a LP 12 another upgrade boost I can follow the first reactions of Fredrik and Thomas as Linn experts. This apart from discussions on fora like Steve Hoffman on this subject.
Vintage TT’s, maybe not 100% optimized cause of construction, age or wear, may producing energy which might ‘intervening’ the musical energy of the vinyl, in a way that rebuilders use modifications like damping to get rid of jammering.
Anyway. Troels Gravesen, Troelsgravesen.dk/lenco and others (Lencoheaven) are using (bitumen)damping on the Lenco chassis, he says “it works wonder” and until now I must agree. In my opinion a better flow of the energy, less impeding of unwanted noise, no obstruction of musicality, balance and tune.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2022-02-07 01:46

Good to hear Arjen!

Keep experimenting with a positive and still critical mindset!

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-02-07 13:18

Thank you Fredrik for (positive critical) supporting, promoting as always the good spirit!

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-02-14 15:23

Been away for a week, back home now. Good to be away for a while from my homesystem, glad to to have a fresh listen again. Not kinda stressful tunedem form A to B and back again, just enjoy listening music.
Playing record on my bitumened Lenco. I must say, although in the eyes and ears of some a refurb vintage Lenco might be a rather modest TT, the performance is a kinda involving awestruck to me.
On Revolver Sun is really out on Good Day Sunshine, their Birds Rally Can Sing! Voices of John and Paul are coming really into their own, as the different instruments. Fluid, well defined and no way locked up in the speakers. Song and tune easy to follow.
Arab Strap Aidan Moffat’s voice on As Days Gets Dark goes deep, the percussion tight and extended.
Adrianna Lenker pronounced guitarplaying accompanying her outstanding singing, coming forward in Wolf (Two Hands album), well balanced performed.
Nick Cave’s dramatic voice over a very realistic experienced dynamic piano sound, where black hair really must shines black.
Art Blakeys drumming is really a varied, layered colorful Big Beat, an awestruck experience.
Shortly concluded until now, although (bitumen) damping may not help a developed high-end Sondek LP12, in my ears it works wonder with a modest, but decent rebuild Lenco 76/S (supported by unsurpassed Slipsik 7.1). This bitumen tweaking of chassis and platter, with leather/felt mat opens new skies so to say. With Lejonklou Slipsik at the Gate I’m in Lenco Heaven.

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2022-02-16 17:27

Interesting information Arjen, glad everything went well for you. Out of curiosity, I looked up the "damping of Lenco turntables" and found this topic on a forum...including some pictures as well...(see link below)

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index ... ic=36079.0

Arjen wrote: ↑2022-02-14 15:23 Been away for a week, back home now. Good to be away for a while from my homesystem, glad to to have a fresh listen again. Not kinda stressful tunedem form A to B and back again, just enjoy listening music.
Playing record on my bitumened Lenco. I must say, although in the eyes and ears of some a refurb vintage Lenco might be a rather modest TT, the performance is a kinda involving awestruck to me.
On Revolver Sun is really out on Good Day Sunshine, their Birds Rally Can Sing! Voices of John and Paul are coming really into their own, as the different instruments. Fluid, well defined and no way locked up in the speakers. Song and tune easy to follow.
Arab Strap Aidan Moffat’s voice on As Days Gets Dark goes deep, the percussion tight and extended.
Adrianna Lenker pronounced guitarplaying accompanying her outstanding singing, coming forward in Wolf (Two Hands album), well balanced performed.
Nick Cave’s dramatic voice over a very realistic experienced dynamic piano sound, where black hair really must shines black.
Art Blakeys drumming is really a varied, layered colorful Big Beat, an awestruck experience.
Shortly concluded until now, although (bitumen) damping may not help a developed high-end Sondek LP12, in my ears it works wonder with a modest, but decent rebuild Lenco 76/S (supported by unsurpassed Slipsik 7.1). This bitumen tweaking of chassis and platter, with leather/felt mat opens new skies so to say. With Lejonklou Slipsik at the Gate I’m in Lenco Heaven.

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-02-16 19:59

Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2022-02-16 17:27 Interesting information Arjen, glad everything went well for you. Out of curiosity, I looked up the "damping of Lenco turntables" and found this topic on a forum...including some pictures as well...(see link below)

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index ... ic=36079.0

Hi Tony,
Thank you for sending this link. Missed this one. This man Bernd has made a really makeover with his PTP Lenco in his effort to lower the motor noise. His experience Bitumen is the same as mine, although he made a mix of bitumen and sand cement and I used 2 mm sheets. More euphonic, dynamic, soundstage. Wonder if this could work out the same well on a vintage LP12.
Apart from this, I don’t know if Bernd or another Lenco forum member was talking about motor noise still left at 11 o Clock, I just checked at 11 (9 is about my limit). CD output dead quiet, but the AV left some noise from my speakers too. Must be turntable related. Some research says it is not the motor or other mechanics, but might come from the arm/headshell/cartridge. After isolation the wee cartridge screws and the headshell/arm attachement with teflon the hum lowered in the way that at 9 the hum is only very very little to my (aged) ears. I imagine another improvement of performance.

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2022-02-24 13:21

Arjen wrote: ↑2022-02-16 19:59
Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2022-02-16 17:27 Interesting information Arjen, glad everything went well for you. Out of curiosity, I looked up the "damping of Lenco turntables" and found this topic on a forum...including some pictures as well...(see link below)

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index ... ic=36079.0
Hi Tony,
Thank you for sending this link. Missed this one. This man Bernd has made a really makeover with his PTP Lenco in his effort to lower the motor noise. His experience Bitumen is the same as mine, although he made a mix of bitumen and sand cement and I used 2 mm sheets. More euphonic, dynamic, soundstage. Wonder if this could work out the same well on a vintage LP12.
Apart from this, I don’t know if Bernd or another Lenco forum member was talking about motor noise still left at 11 o Clock, I just checked at 11 (9 is about my limit). CD output dead quiet, but the AV left some noise from my speakers too. Must be turntable related. Some research says it is not the motor or other mechanics, but might come from the arm/headshell/cartridge. After isolation the wee cartridge screws and the headshell/arm attachement with teflon the hum lowered in the way that at 9 the hum is only very very little to my (aged) ears. I imagine another improvement of performance.

You're welcome Arjen, I noticed there was a great deal of information on the Lenco forum. Have you looked into the various bearing systems as well? Apparently there are other parts that can improve performance for Lenco turntables too.

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2022-02-24 14:39

Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2022-02-24 13:21
Arjen wrote: ↑2022-02-16 19:59
Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2022-02-16 17:27 Interesting information Arjen, glad everything went well for you. Out of curiosity, I looked up the "damping of Lenco turntables" and found this topic on a forum...including some pictures as well...(see link below)

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index ... ic=36079.0
Hi Tony,
Thank you for sending this link. Missed this one. This man Bernd has made a really makeover with his PTP Lenco in his effort to lower the motor noise. His experience Bitumen is the same as mine, although he made a mix of bitumen and sand cement and I used 2 mm sheets. More euphonic, dynamic, soundstage. Wonder if this could work out the same well on a vintage LP12.
Apart from this, I don’t know if Bernd or another Lenco forum member was talking about motor noise still left at 11 o Clock, I just checked at 11 (9 is about my limit). CD output dead quiet, but the AV left some noise from my speakers too. Must be turntable related. Some research says it is not the motor or other mechanics, but might come from the arm/headshell/cartridge. After isolation the wee cartridge screws and the headshell/arm attachement with teflon the hum lowered in the way that at 9 the hum is only very very little to my (aged) ears. I imagine another improvement of performance.
You're welcome Arjen, I noticed there was a great deal of information on the Lenco forum. Have you looked into the various bearing systems as well? Apparently there are other parts that can improve performance for Lenco turntables too.

I found this Lenco parts page to refurbish and restore their turntables....not sure if it's applicable to your model.

https://audio-creativeshop.nl/lenco-ref ... d-restore/

Arjen · Post by **Arjen** » 2022-02-27 00:25

Yes and thank you Tony. I know them already. I’ve heard those Audio Creative parts are good and might be useful for a next refurb step.