Moving Coil Vs Moving Magnet.

[Lego]

Which do you prefer .
It's coming to the time where I have to get a new cartridge.

My 3 options are

1)A cheap moving magnet (AT ) with probably Karousel added as paying someone ~£200 to fix a £30 cartridge irks me somewhat.

2)Trade in my Akiva for a Karousel.


3)Get Roberto in Italy to retip my Akiva

I read someone say in one of those generic audiophile forums (not Linn or Naim based ) that MCs are for Audiophiles and MMs are for music lovers.Dangerous generalisation,I know.

I've also just finished reading an 1980 Gramophone review of the Meridian M2s ...remember them !!??

In it he refers to MMs and MCs by saying;

..'I must vote against the promotion of the moving-coil as a superior beast.I know why people prefer them but I'd rather have my excitement come from the score'

Advise and discuss please .

[Discodave]

First things first. Have your family banished you to the back room on Christmas day? Did they find your hi-fi related banter/craic not to their amusement?

Secondly - what phono stage do you have - does it accept both MM/MC?

Happy Christmas Leo :)

[lejonklou]

Moved topic from HAKAI to HiFi

[Mr Pig]

I don't know if I could say I prefer one or the other, it's a matter of context. They are not the same. Generally speaking, MCs have more air and fine detail and MMs sound more solid and robust but these are fairly huge and imprecise generalizations, There can be a lot of overlap.

I certainly don't think it's safe to say that MC is automatically better. At the lower end of the MC market there are MM carts which can show them a thing or two but it really comes down to what kind of sound you like and what you are trying to achieve. Personally, I think MM is better up until... you can't get MM any more! The best MM carts cost £500 to £600 and I reckon they are the best option up to that point. Above that the question is moot as MC is all you get.

It's worth pointing out that MC costs more to run as MC styli are not replaceable and a good MC phono stage costs more than a good MM one. This is relevant because the turntable hierarchy includes cartridges so it'll be cheaper and better sounding to run a good MM cart on a great arm than use a MC on an arm that's barely good enough to get it working.

[Arjen]

Is the dilemma about MC or MM or is it what you would like to hear in your ears? About the tune that is most preferable to you related to the music you play. A tune that thrills and moves you from the A-side to the B-side of the record, that moves your legs to a dance.
It is also technically about the setup, turntable, arm, pre-amp.
I ‘ve never compared on my own system, MM with MC. I only changed from Grado Prestige Gold/ Project Box to high end Nagaoka MP300 / Slipsik 6 and Slipsik 7 combination. Guided by Fredriks comments about MM. What a change for the good. I don’t think any MC can beat this in my setup. I’ m very happy with its soundstage, its detailed natural performance. Maybe on your set and with your taste a MC is preferable, this MM Nagaoka MP is a winner for me.

[Mr Pig]

I don’t think any MC can beat this in my setup.

I think they might!..

[Lego]

Moved topic from HAKAI to HiFi

Sorry Fredrik ,I was wondering why I couldn't find it ..lol

[Lego]

First things first. Have your family banished you to the back room on Christmas day? Did they find your hi-fi related banter/craic not to their amusement?

Secondly - what phono stage do you have - does it accept both MM/MC?

Happy Christmas Leo :)

Yes Discodave didn't get much out of them ,which is why I came here.

My Kairn does MM and I have a Linto.

I was just wondering if MMs do something that MCs aren't as good at.Some of my best memories of listening to some albums is back when I had an MM.

[Lego]

Is the dilemma about MC or MM or is it what you would like to hear in your ears? About the tune that is most preferable to you related to the music you play. A tune that thrills and moves you from the A-side to the B-side of the record, that moves your legs to a dance.
It is also technically about the setup, turntable, arm, pre-amp.
I ‘ve never compared on my own system, MM with MC. I only changed from Grado Prestige Gold/ Project Box to high end Nagaoka MP300 / Slipsik 6 and Slipsik 7 combination. Guided by Fredriks comments about MM. What a change for the good. I don’t think any MC can beat this in my setup. I’ m very happy with its soundstage, its detailed natural performance. Maybe on your set and with your taste a MC is preferable, this MM Nagaoka MP is a winner for me.

Ok let me put it another way Arjen in a blind test do you think it's possible to tell which is mm and which is MC ?

[Mr Pig]

I was just wondering if MMs do something that MCs aren't as good at.

Mmm, sort of. MM can give you a sense of solidity and weight that a lot of MC carts lack, but not all MM carts and not all MC carts! As I said, up to about £500 I really don't see the merit in MC carts. You don't get MM carts above that but expensive MC carts can have a level of transparency you just don't hear from MM.

[Lego]

I don't know if I could say I prefer one or the other, it's a matter of context. They are not the same. Generally speaking, MCs have more air and fine detail and MMs sound more solid and robust but these are fairly huge and imprecise generalizations, There can be a lot of overlap.

I certainly don't think it's safe to say that MC is automatically better. At the lower end of the MC market there are MM carts which can show them a thing or two but it really comes down to what kind of sound you like and what you are trying to achieve. Personally, I think MM is better up until... you can't get MM any more! The best MM carts cost £500 to £600 and I reckon they are the best option up to that point. Above that the question is moot as MC is all you get.

It's worth pointing out that MC costs more to run as MC styli are not replaceable and a good MC phono stage costs more than a good MM one. This is relevant because the turntable hierarchy includes cartridges so it'll be cheaper and better sounding to run a good MM cart on a great arm than use a MC on an arm that's barely good enough to get it working.

That's a good point about costs.Having had the Asaka Klyde ArkivB and Akiva and maybe a Krystal on my Ekos 1. That money would have been better put towards an Ekos SE.And if Linn had stuck to making turntables and speakers my front end would have been more robust ,but that's another debate.Also the difference price points makes my question kind of irrelevant.Thanks for clarifying my thoughts.

[Mr Pig]

That's a good point about costs.Having had the Asaka Klyde ArkivB and Akiva and maybe a Krystal on my Ekos 1. That money would have been better put towards an Ekos SE.

Yip. Linn themselves demed the Ittok/Troika against the Ekos (Mk1)/Basik, a Basik cartridge for crying out loud, and the Ekos/Basic was better. Not in every respect but overall it was better. I'm running a Rega RB3000/Exact just now myself and it stacks up pretty well against MC carts I've used in lesser arms. I certainly think a good MM cart in an Ekos SE is going to drown a MC in a poorer arm.

[Lego]

I was just wondering if MMs do something that MCs aren't as good at.

Mmm, sort of. MM can give you a sense of solidity and weight that a lot of MC carts lack, but not all MM carts and not all MC carts! As I said, up to about £500 I really don't see the merit in MC carts. You don't get MM carts above that but expensive MC carts can have a level of transparency you just don't hear from MM.

Thanks Mr P

[Arjen]

Is the dilemma about MC or MM or is it what you would like to hear in your ears? About the tune that is most preferable to you related to the music you play. A tune that thrills and moves you from the A-side to the B-side of the record, that moves your legs to a dance.
It is also technically about the setup, turntable, arm, pre-amp.
I ‘ve never compared on my own system, MM with MC. I only changed from Grado Prestige Gold/ Project Box to high end Nagaoka MP300 / Slipsik 6 and Slipsik 7 combination. Guided by Fredriks comments about MM. What a change for the good. I don’t think any MC can beat this in my setup. I’ m very happy with its soundstage, its detailed natural performance. Maybe on your set and with your taste a MC is preferable, this MM Nagaoka MP is a winner for me.

Ok let me put it another way Arjen in a blind test do you think it's possible to tell which is mm and which is MC ?

I never compared MM and MC on my turntable, so I don’t know. But talking about transparency (mr. Pig), Nagaoka Mp’s are big deals. The MP 300 a killer for about 750 Euro is very transparant, detailed, with body and soul. The MP 500 might even be more impressive for the price of about of about 900 Euro. The reviews say they are very close to, or even better than the best and far more expensive MC’s. This night of listening Willie Nelson, Steve Gunn, Weather Station, Mahler, Miles Davis, Arab Straps’s Aidan Moffat and RM Hubbard with my Nagaoka MM has been of a great musical and tuneful joy. Hope that will convince you.

[Mr Pig]

I never compared MM and MC on my turntable, so I don’t know. But talking about transparency (mr. Pig), Nagaoka Mp’s are big deals. The MP 300 a killer for about 750 Euro is very transparent, detailed, with body and soul. The MP 500 might even be more impressive for the price of about of about 900 Euro.

It's all a question of degrees. For example you could say that 'X' MC cartridge is more detailed and dynamic than 'Y MM cartridge but this will be assuming all else is equal. This is true with both in the same arm and deck but this does not mean that it will be true if the MC is on a lesser arm or deck and the MM is on a better one. In real terms the difference between the two cartridges can easily be smaller than the difference between a decent and really good arm.

Linn have always said this, and I think they're right, but it is so often forgotten or not taken seriously. I have a friend who was using a MC on a Basik arm and I kept saying to him that the arm was not good enough. Eventually he swapped it for an RB303 and is really happy with the result. When I had the RP10, which I didn't like, I found that almost any cartridge was more refined and detailed than the MC carts I'd used on my Ittok/LP12.

A top cartridge is really the last piece of the vinyl puzzle I think. Nail everything else first. I know I'm saying it again but the economics are better too. Dealers will happily sell you a grand's worth of MC cart because they know you'll be back to replace it in two or three years. A good arm is a one time purchase.

I think people often just get caught up in the mystique of MC cartridges. They know that MC carts cost more and are supposed to be the best so they feel that's what they should have to get the best sound. It isn't that simple and unless you've got the kit to get the best out of it a MC cart is not necessarily the most sensible way to go.

[Arjen]

You might be right mr.P saying that nail the basics first and question The mystics of the MC.
But it is also a question of money.
So following discussions on this forum about the LP12 and all its upgrades, it starts with over 4000 Euro and ends up over 20.000 Euro, for me a lot of money. The Linn dealer in town has a living thanks to all the upgrading. So nailing the basics might leave your pockets empty in the end.
My upgrading was from a Lenco B55 to a Lenco 76/S with a decent vintage Jelcoarm, refurbished and upgraded by Lenco Heaven instructions, it only costs about 400 Euro. Than the PTP developer (totally new TT on the base of Lenco parts) told me about the Nagaoka’s on his turntables. the 76/S was a big step forward, the Nagaoka MP300 significant better than the Grado Prestige Gold, the Slipsik a big improvement over the Project. Cable upgrades did the rest. A very reasonable investment, no expensive illusionary Linn gear and MC mystics, brought me a decent vintage set with MM and a fantastic realistic, detailed musical performance.
Basics first, yes, for reasonable costs you make it a high end and than finish with a top MM like a good Nagaoka MP. And do not forget the Slipsik, that one is magic to get the best out of your music.

[V.A.MKD]

Is the dilemma about MC or MM or is it what you would like to hear in your ears? About the tune that is most preferable to you related to the music you play. A tune that thrills and moves you from the A-side to the B-side of the record, that moves your legs to a dance.
It is also technically about the setup, turntable, arm, pre-amp.
I ‘ve never compared on my own system, MM with MC. I only changed from Grado Prestige Gold/ Project Box to high end Nagaoka MP300 / Slipsik 6 and Slipsik 7 combination. Guided by Fredriks comments about MM. What a change for the good. I don’t think any MC can beat this in my setup. I’ m very happy with its soundstage, its detailed natural performance. Maybe on your set and with your taste a MC is preferable, this MM Nagaoka MP is a winner for me.

Ok let me put it another way Arjen in a blind test do you think it's possible to tell which is mm and which is MC ?

Blind test will be good for the "forum", especially if there are clips with Top Spec LP12 with MM and MC and Lejonklou System like Fredrik have ...

[Mr Pig]

..the 76/S was a big step forward, the Nagaoka MP300 significant better than the Grado Prestige Gold,

Arm matching is important and it's worth noting that many older and budget tonearms were not designed to work with moving coil cartridges. Rigidity, bearing quality and compliance are variables which greatly effect which cartridges will work best on your arm. While you may be able to fit any cartridge and music will come out, if the cart is poorly matched to the arm it won't sound anything like its best.

[Lego]

..the 76/S was a big step forward, the Nagaoka MP300 significant better than the Grado Prestige Gold,

Arm matching is important and it's worth noting that many older and budget tonearms were not designed to work with moving coil cartridges. Rigidity, bearing quality and compliance are variables which greatly effect which cartridges will work best on your arm. While you may be able to fit any cartridge and music will come out, if the cart is poorly matched to the arm it won't sound anything like its best.

In that case Adikt vs Krystal would probably be the best compromise.

[Arjen]

A thousand Euros between MM and MC….. But why only stick to Linn cartridges?

[Lego]

A thousand Euros between MM and MC….. But why only stick on Linn cartridges?

Not necessarily to hear which one is better but to hear if MM does something MC doesn't .Both suitable for same arm.

[Catweazle]

If you dig in the Linn owners club on the Wam, you'll probably find the story of DavidHB, who was a big fan of the Linn Adikt until he eventually had built his LP12 to the Klimax spec and finally changed for a MC (I think a Krystal at first). I myself "stepped down" and bought a Krystal to find the budget for a Kore rather than replacing my then worn Akiva (I did not know Torlai back then) by a new Kandid, and I think that was a smart move. But the magic word in your question is Akiva. If you are lucky enough to already own one, giving it away is something to really, really think about - and then decide against it. With a 600ish € for a Torlai refurbisment you already own a cartridge that's superior to a Krystal at half the "running cost". Clearly a keeper in my world, until luck strikes and money is no problem ;-)
I did this refurb myself, meanwhile, and interestingly, the same LP recorded via Songcorder yields a slightly higher flac file biitrate with Akiva vs Krystal, which I take as a measurement token of my impression, that the Akiva plays more detailed, and tuneful.
If it's feasible for you to keep the Akiva now for later, go wit a cheap MM for the moment, and at the same time invest in an LP12 "infrastructure" improvement, then that is probably the best compromise.
Happy listening, whatever way you choose.

[Lego]

If you dig in the Linn owners club on the Wam, you'll probably find the story of DavidHB, who was a big fan of the Linn Adikt until he eventually had built his LP12 to the Klimax spec and finally changed for a MC (I think a Krystal at first). I myself "stepped down" and bought a Krystal to find the budget for a Kore rather than replacing my then worn Akiva (I did not know Torlai back then) by a new Kandid, and I think that was a smart move. But the magic word in your question is Akiva. If you are lucky enough to already own one, giving it away is something to really, really think about - and then decide against it. With a 600ish € for a Torlai refurbisment you already own a cartridge that's superior to a Krystal at half the "running cost". Clearly a keeper in my world, until luck strikes and money is no problem ;-)
I did this refurb myself, meanwhile, and interestingly, the same LP recorded via Songcorder yields a slightly higher flac file biitrate with Akiva vs Krystal, which I take as a measurement token of my impression, that the Akiva plays more detailed, and tuneful.
If it's feasible for you to keep the Akiva now for later, go wit a cheap MM for the moment, and at the same time invest in an LP12 "infrastructure" improvement, then that is probably the best compromise.
Happy listening, whatever way you choose.

Thanks for the advice Catweazle.The Akiva is one of those Linn products I really took to immediately and it's lasted me quite a few years,and if Roberto is good as what I've read ,it'll probably be my daily driver for quite some time to come

[Tony Tune-age]

I was just wondering if MMs do something that MCs aren't as good at.

Mmm, sort of. MM can give you a sense of solidity and weight that a lot of MC carts lack, but not all MM carts and not all MC carts! As I said, up to about £500 I really don't see the merit in MC carts. You don't get MM carts above that but expensive MC carts can have a level of transparency you just don't hear from MM.

That's been my experience, when going from a decent MM cartridge ($500.00), to a really decent MC cartridge ($1,100), both on the same Ekos ll tonearm. And as the MC cartridges got better (i.e., Akiva, Kandid, Ekstatik), the level of transparency increased as well.

[Tony Tune-age]

Here's an article about some of the "advantages & disadvantages of moving coil and moving magnet phono cartridges."

https://www.yoursoundmatters.com/moving ... ifference/