What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

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Catweazle
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What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Catweazle »

Hello all,
we have heard and read reports on the latest Linn Klimax DSM Organik, and I even heard one playing at my dealer. What I cannot get my head around: If one "slices" the DSM into a DSH part, and say, a new Klimax Exaktbox Organik, what is the DSH actually doing, to contribute to the improvement - which some claim to be 70% of the DSM, assigning the other 30% to the DAC aka the Exaktbox. Unfortunately, I could never verify this with my own ears. I had plans, but my dealer fell ill, and a second chance never materialized.
According to my understanding my LP12 / Urika II, or minimstreamer (or a Källa if you own one) already deliver a 24/192 bitstream, the first two via Exaktlink, the Källa I'm not sure. The DSH does not need to provide any ADC services in this case, apparently just delivers the master clock plus some "mathematics" to re-calculate the volume. The DAC in the Exaktbox converts the bitstream to an analog signal. In order to do so, it needs a precise clock, precise voltages, and precise switches, to switch the voltages exaktly at the right times to reproduce the output signal. The DAC voltages are generated in the Exaktbox, the switches are there as well. I guess there's also a clock, but somehow it appears to depend on the master clock in the DSH?
My initial hypothesis, which I wanted to put to the audition (see above) was, that a ADSH with Klimax Exaktbox (Organik) might sound better, as in: more musical, than a New Klimax DSH with Akurate Exaktbox.
But apparently from what I read it's vice versa?
Did anyone here ever did this experiment. Clips?
Where's the flaw in my way of thinking?
Something to think over at Christmas! ;-)
Happy holidays!
CW
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by matthias »

Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-24 14:45 My initial hypothesis, which I wanted to put to the audition (see above) was, that a ADSH with Klimax Exaktbox (Organik) might sound better, as in: more musical, than a New Klimax DSH with Akurate Exaktbox.
But apparently from what I read it's vice versa?
According to the reports on the Linn Wigwam forum the NGKDSH outperforms the old one and from a Source First POV a combo with the NGKDSH will outperform any combo with another DSH.
It is just that the DAC has a lower ranking in the hierarchy.
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Catweazle
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Catweazle »

I heard that too Matthias, but it's hard to understand how/where the information is lost, when a digital signal is just passed through. The DAC part of the box appears to do so much more, that "dropping the ball" is more intuitive here. The Krystal upgrade of the Exaktbox was a very significant change, thus it appears intuitive to me that this slice of the DSM would be more critical.
If it's the other way round in reality, there must be a reason. And it' certainly not the new ADC, as it's never used in this setup. It looks like Linn is doing something with the signal in the DSH, which I can't grasp, and that they did this worse in the prior versions? Hopefully, someone here is in the know.
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by springwood64 »

Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-24 15:31 it's hard to understand how/where the information is lost, when a digital signal is just passed through.
Digital data is voltages representing 1s and 0s. It is very robust and well protected from corruption. Though corruption can still occur, error detection and correction is built in at many levels.

Digital music is digital data and timing. Unlike the data, error detection and correction in timing is not so comprehensively implemented.

In addition, we are good at detecting timing : https://www.aalto.fi/en/news/the-human- ... y-in-sound
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Catweazle »

Thx Pete, a very interesting article!
In the context of the DSM/H, then the precision of the clock appears to be the most important field of improvement. I recall that Linn marketing mentioned a better clock, but interestingly they gave much more room to rave about the benefits of their Organik DAC. Do we know, how far the impact of the master clock reaches? What does it influence? And were does it sit in a "split-up" system, in the DSH, or in the Exaktbox? It looks like it controls at least the timing of the Exakt link. If that's correct, the signals would be passed on more precisely. As a conclusion, upgrading to Organik makes little sense, if one keeps the old DSM/H, as the Organic DAC can't live up to it's capability beeing fed by a "bad" master clock. But on the other hand I'd expect that the data is buffered close to the DAC, and the precision of the conversion is determined by the clock of the DAC anyway. If that's correct, than the precision of the clock that controls the Exakt link is not critical anymore. I'm still out in the fog on this!
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by matthias »

Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-24 17:25 ...interestingly they gave much more room to rave about the benefits of their Organik DAC.
Yes, for marketing reasons. Many "audiophiles" believe that the DAC is the most important device in a digital set-up.
And Linn make a lot of money with the Organik DAC. The NGKDSH is half the price of the NGKDSM, so they sell the pure Organik board without case and power supply for 15k GBP. Wow!
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Catweazle »

I had a phone call with my trusted dealer, yesterday, and he actually has done an experiment:
- old Klimax DSH with new Klimax Exaktbox
- new Klimax DSH with old Klimax Exaktbox
in his shop in order to validate which component has more impact on the perceived improvements.
Actually, I had proposed this kind of test to him, but then, unfortunately, I could not find the time to attend a mutual session.
The result has been reported as "very clear", The Organik DAC was the winner in this scenario. The new DSH was clearly better than the old one, but the change to Organik brings more to the table, so he said.
It would be great to have clips to validate this in the playground!
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Nature »

Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-29 19:38- old Klimax DSH with new Klimax Exaktbox
Is this the Klimax System Hub (Variant 2018)?
Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-29 19:38- new Klimax DSH with old Klimax Exaktbox
Is this the Klimax DSM Hub also refered to as Klimax DSM/3? (which was released in 2021)
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Tendaberry »

Nature wrote: 2021-12-29 21:07
Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-29 19:38- old Klimax DSH with new Klimax Exaktbox
Is this the Klimax System Hub (Variant 2018)?
Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-29 19:38- new Klimax DSH with old Klimax Exaktbox
Is this the Klimax DSM Hub also refered to as Klimax DSM/3? (which was released in 2021)
Klimax System Hub (Katalyst) with Klimax Exaktbox (Organik) vs. NG Klimax System Hub (2021) with Klimax Exaktbox (Katalyst)
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by matthias »

Tendaberry wrote: 2021-12-30 11:56 Klimax System Hub (Katalyst)
AFAIK, there is no "Katalyst" (DAC) technique in a KSH.
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Tendaberry »

matthias wrote: 2021-12-30 13:20
Tendaberry wrote: 2021-12-30 11:56 Klimax System Hub (Katalyst)
AFAIK, there is no "Katalyst" (DAC) technique in a KSH.
You're right of course! My bad :-( I was looking for a way to distinguish the old hub from the new.
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by ThomasOK »

Seeing as Linn decided to complicate things by not giving the new units /#s or MK#s they found the need to try and make it simpler for people to differentiate the new vs. the old (which are still being sold). This is what they came up with:

KDSM (2021)
KDSM (Katalyst)

Klimax System Hub
Klimax System Hub (2016)

Now you know what to call them. One marvels at the clarity and consistency of the chosen nomenclature.
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Catweazle »

Nature wrote: 2021-12-29 21:07
Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-29 19:38- old Klimax DSH with new Klimax Exaktbox
Is this the Klimax System Hub (Variant 2018)?
Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-29 19:38- new Klimax DSH with old Klimax Exaktbox
Is this the Klimax DSM Hub also refered to as Klimax DSM/3? (which was released in 2021)
Yes and Yes, or in other words:
new DSH -> current version in the "cookie" box
old DSH -> prior version in the traditional Klimax "pizza" box
new Klimax Exaktbox -> "pizza" box wit Organik DAC
old Klimax Exaktbox -> "pizza" box with Katalyst DAC
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Catweazle »

Catweazle wrote: 2021-12-24 14:45 The DSH does not need to provide any ADC services in this case, apparently just delivers the master clock plus some "mathematics" to re-calculate the volume.
Just to correct myself: Volume is controlled by the Exaktbox, not the DSH, as I read elsewhere.
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Catweazle »

Just to add some experiences to my question. Whatever the DSH does, the impact of the Organic DAC is huge. Meanwhile, I replaced my Akurate Katalyst Exaktbox by a Klimax Organik Exaktbox. Not a cheap replacement, but my courage to commit this investment paid off. Actually, one of the biggest improvements I ever realized - even with my 2014 KDSM board in a Renew case aka KRDSM. I'm not sure what a cookie box DSH would add, but it's tempting to speculate, that an investment of this kind of budget in better amps, or speakers would have a bigger impact, in the context of my system now.
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by anthony »

On the contrary the actual new dsh adds more than the organik upgrade. I’ve heard it in various systems and I rate it highly. I certainly would place it way ahead of any amp change!
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by matthias »

anthony wrote: 2022-04-15 20:06 On the contrary the actual new dsh adds more than the organik upgrade. I’ve heard it in various systems and I rate it highly. I certainly would place it way ahead of any amp change!
IMO, this makes sense from the Source First hierarchy.
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by Spannko »

I’ve heard the original KSH and the NGKSH into Katalyst K350’s on different occasions and in different settings, however I haven’t heard a direct comparison between the two different hubs. The impression I get is that the NGKSH isn’t a game changer, but is just a bit better, particularly in terms of the sound. In terms of the musicality, the difference was too small for me to detect over different times and settings. A friend who’s opinion I respect and has heard a direct comparison has said that there was a detectable difference in musicality and the NGK helped to generate the best sound he’s heard from 350’s.
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Re: What Exaktly does a DSH do in an Exakt system?

Post by sunbeamgls »

Catweazle wrote: 2022-01-01 19:28
Just to correct myself: Volume is controlled by the Exaktbox, not the DSH, as I read elsewhere.
At risk of being excessively pedantic (guilty) the volume is controlled by the DSM / SH but implement by the Exaktbox :)
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