Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

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Arjen
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Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Arjen »

Hi Friends,
Following the forum no for a few months it strikes me that after introducing a new product or another upgrade the very loved pre-loved former one or replaced one is often described as obsolete, even recently by someones as “lifeless, flat and muddled “, when it comes to Kalla Linn streamers are described by that, same happened to older Slipsiks etcetera. Has the pre-loved one really musically to be depreciated or are we witnessing a bias because of our eagerness to experience an expected improved design? I suppose every product of Fredrik and probably other developers too is an achievement in itself and a improvement cannot cancel that earlier improvement. I am curious about your opinion, wether you can still enjoy music played with the old devices.
Last edited by Arjen on 2021-10-19 10:55, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Do make an upgraded product the former one obsolate?

Post by springwood64 »

Aside from any degradation that comes from aging electronics, the superseded devices do not become less musical, or less capable of bringing pleasure.

People's expectations change. When you hear a more enjoyable system you are less likely to settle for one that 'has something missing'.
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Spannko »

For me, this phenomenon highlights a slight difficulty I have with the way we decide which products we prefer over others. Naimly, TuneDem! Before MI8 gets out his red pen, let me explain!

TuneDem is undoubtedly the best and most consistent method of evaluating hifi. I have absolutely no problem with this. The problem, I believe, is in the use of the method and the conclusions drawn from it.

TuneDem is nearly always used to determine relative differences. So, we decide that product A is “more tuneful” (as we call it) than product B. I believe this is what leads to the “the King sounds broken. Long live the King!” Phenomenon. The problem really, is that product B was never really that good in the first place, it was just better than C, and D, and ……….

The solution, I think, is to use TuneDem to evaluate more absolute differences, that is, by comparing the items being evaluated to the sound of real music, not another product.

Comparing to the sound of real music can be difficult, but I think most of us know what an acoustic guitar sounds like in real life. The harmonies produced by the strings of a guitar can be beautiful, and we can all recognise that. However, comparing components to the sound of music is a much tougher test of a components tune playing abilities, and when assessed in this way, 98% of all products on the market would fail. In general, most manufacturers would prefer us to use the “A or B” dem. It almost guarantees initial pleasure, followed by displeasure, followed by a visit to our nearest pusher for our next fix!

I’m sorry to bring Källa back into the discussion, but it’s a perfect example of a “2%” product which genuinely compares well to the sound of real musicians playing real music. It’s unbelievably naturally musical, to the extent that comparing it to anything but real music is pretty pointless. It has “absolute” quality.

Now I know that everything is relative, and there’s no doubt that one day Källa will be improved, but because it compares well to the sound of real music, I don’t think it will ever sound “broken” or be thought of as a poor component. I really think it will stand the test of time and be a future classic.
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by tokenbrit »

One person's obsolete can be another's upgrade.
Linn helped this along with Renew; sadly not with Radikal/2 so a lot of Radikal/1s will be "broken", literally... Happily, most Lejonklou products can be upgraded to latest spec, when Fredrik finds a musical improvement, so your older Slipsik, etc isn't made musically 'obsolete'.
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Ianw »

There’s an update package in the pipeline for Radikal, dealers taking orders delivery dates TBC.

Having heard both Klimax Radikals back to back I can confirm the original Radikal ain’t broke.
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by matthias »

Ianw wrote: 2021-10-19 13:07 I can confirm the original Radikal ain’t broke.
I think tokenbrit meant that the old Radikals will be deleted in the factory and not used as a "Renew".

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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by tokenbrit »

Ianw wrote: 2021-10-19 13:07 There’s an update package in the pipeline for Radikal, dealers taking orders delivery dates TBC.

Having heard both Klimax Radikals back to back I can confirm the original Radikal ain’t broke.
Yes, I just meant that the specific components replaced by the update package, won't be Renewed, but will be disposed of, hence 'broken (down)' / obsolete, it is (will be) a 'was Radikal' ;)
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Ianw »

Sadly, yes. The removed boards and motor will be scrapped/not reused 😒
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Arjen »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-10-19 10:37 One person's obsolete can be another's upgrade.
Linn helped this along with Renew; sadly not with Radikal/2 so a lot of Radikal/1s will be "broken", literally... Happily, most Lejonklou products can be upgraded to latest spec, when Fredrik finds a musical improvement, so your older Slipsik, etc isn't made musically 'obsolete'.
Reading reviews of the Kalla as a last Fredrik Lejenklou effort from the likes of Gammaboy, ThomasOK and Macrotech2 must leave other streamers and its designers like the Naims and Linns lost in confusion. So in that sense making them obsolete for who before the Introduction of the Kalla enjoyed those devices as very natural etc…
Indeed, the left overs can be an upgrade for pity behinders, but there will be a challenging job for Linn and all other Fredriks competitors than. Or are we with the Kalla and all other ultimate Lejenklou products talking about the Hi End Game and declare Fredrik already as the winner?
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by ThomasOK »

Now you're going to get me waxing philosophical. Once you have heard something that is musically superior compared to what was previously the best, you can't unhear what the better piece did. You can go back to the previous best and do what you can to ignore it but you will still know and remember that it has been done better. Does this make the previous one less good? Yes and no. It is no less good that it was but it is no longer the closer approach to perfection (which will never be attained). This is certainly how I view Slipsik 6.1 vs 7.1, Radikal vs. Lingo, Ekos SE/1 vs Ekos SE and the list goes on and on.

There is nothing new or unique about this. If I like pizza and find a really good pizza place I will keep going there. But if I find a better pizza place I will likely not go back to the lesser one unless it has something else to recommend it. I have an Indian restaurant I have been going to for years and have never found any better so I keep going there. But if I was told of a better one, tried it and found it better I would start going there. I could relate this to wine or beer but I don't drink alcohol so I wouldn't know what I am talking about. But I certainly know where the best ice cream places are, what car I find the best (I drive it) what sheets and mattress I like, etc.

This is all part of living as a human on the Earth plane. We have five senses and they all like to be pleased. They also all can get bored of the same thing all the time so they always want something better, something different, something new. It is part of the maya game. We always want more or better as we try to cater to the desires generated by our senses. So these changes serve to feed our addiction to sensation. Knowing this why am I in the Hi-Fi business? Because music is one of the higher things to appeal to the senses, it can elevate us and is a sample of the ultimate music of the spheres that we all really want but don't know it. As such it is less detrimental to our senses than alcohol, tobacco and drugs or even food if ill chosen or over consumed. So in offering equipment that increases enjoyment of music, which can be a stepping stone to enlightenment, I feel like I provide a worthwhile service, even if it is no less an addictive pastime!

As I have quoted from Aldous Huxley before: "After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music."
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by ThomasOK »

Back down to earth, the problem I see with using the Tune Method to compare live music vs. recorded is that it is exceedingly difficult (read near impossible) to have the live perfromance and the one through the equipment being evaluated available to be switched back and forth!
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Arjen »

It is a pleasure reading and learning from you and others on this forum Tom.
Bob Ross once said that it is important to do everyday some things that make us happy. That is what we do in our everyday working life, family life, hifi life and on this forum too.
But than it is also Bob who says that if you do too much, it is going to lose effectiveness, that if you come to close it is hard to see things anymore. In terms of economics, what is the utility possibility frontier, if there is any in musically reproduction.
Your sideline note about comparing music with food taste and consumption is tricky for we all know the food and drug industry forces us into their consuming formats (sugar, salt, artificial flavoring) to make us dependent of their products.
Talking about music, is there anything similar like in the food and drug industry going on in the hifi industry or streaming services industry to let us swim by them flavoring and algorithms in their format? To get us addicted, ever buying and making obsolete what is not profitable to them?
Or are thee trying to let us come close to the real natural thing. I hope the latter.
Back to the item of obsolete devices now.
Fredrik as a real lover, expert and magician is, probably like some others too, on his way to come very close. Coming closer and closer does it make the former device and design obsolete? Maybe for the early closest ones, for second followers (as I’am one of them I’m (not)afraid)indeed there is probably a lot left to upgrade with the preloved leftovers. That is the nice thing of TuneDem, you can enjoy that on every level, the level of the first adapters as of that of the last one in the row.
Paraphrasing the late great philosopher Bob Ross Tune Method will make you happy, it can bring you on every level close to your hifi heaven, but if you are too close, step back a little for a little while for maintaining the effect and keeping it joyful. Before making a next step, or not.
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by sktn77a »

Just read some of old "The Flat Response" reviews. Every new version of anything Linn or Naim (and one or two other manufacturers' products) was so much better than its predecessor, only a deaf moron would not be able to immediately hear the difference!
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Technology advances. The JBL 3 series and 7 series wouldn't have been possible twenty years ago. The Linn power amps and interconnects I resell will find a happy home and be an upgrade for someone (as did my Ikemi). Unlike many I've never been loyal to any brand - I trust my ears.

Bob Ross liked happy little trees. I like the idea that for someone out there my used Linn products will make some other soul happy. I don't have any bitterness over any product purchase I've made. We're grown ups. Sure we can make mistakes. After over twenty years of pleasure I'm happy that my downgrades will be an upgrade for someone else :)
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Azazello »

Arjen wrote: 2021-10-18 23:32 [... ]are we witnessing a bias because of our eagerness to experience an expected improved design? [...] I am curious about your opinion, wether you can still enjoy music played with the old devices.
I don't think that's the case at all. I have been really disappointed quite a few times when I have listened to a new expensive system I was expecting to get a thrill from (mostly newer Linn-stuff before i realised they have lost it - now i couldn't be bothered with them). I'm absolutely confident I know what i like and I can judge it easily.

To some extent I think the thrill of an upgrade is about the novelty of listening to some old favourite song and get to learn new things about it. It's kind of similar to listening to a new song you like, but better; it's effortless since you already know it. After a while you get used to the new higher level, and the magic wears of a bit. Hence the urge to upgrade. But there is no way back. ;)
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Lego »

Azazello wrote: 2021-11-19 00:06
Arjen wrote: 2021-10-18 23:32 [... ]are we witnessing a bias because of our eagerness to experience an expected improved design? [...] I am curious about your opinion, wether you can still enjoy music played with the old devices.
I don't think that's the case at all. I have been really disappointed quite a few times when I have listened to a new expensive system I was expecting to get a thrill from (mostly newer Linn-stuff before i realised they have lost it - now i couldn't be bothered with them). I'm absolutely confident I know what i like and I can judge it easily.

To some extent I think the thrill of an upgrade is about the novelty of listening to some old favourite song and get to learn new things about it. It's kind of similar to listening to a new song you like, but better; it's effortless since you already know it. After a while you get used to the new higher level, and the magic wears of a bit. Hence the urge to upgrade. But there is no way back. ;)
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Azazello »

Lego wrote: 2021-12-12 23:15 That's Dopamine for you 😁
The audiophile version of cocaine.
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Discodave »

Azazello wrote: 2021-12-13 20:49
Lego wrote: 2021-12-12 23:15 That's Dopamine for you 😁
The audiophile version of cocaine.
Somebody call Rick James!
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Occasionally you have to stand your ground. It's the annual battle between the Christmas tree and the HiFi. Tell her the new subwoofer is a little bit bigger than you thought but it was a bargain and a vintage investment :)

Add a triangular piece of cardboard and it's almost a tree ;)
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Re: Does an upgraded product make the former one obsolete?

Post by Arjen »

Just see this one now, a month later than posted. I love it. Christmas tree has gone a few days ago, so the battle is over for the time being.
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