The LP12 just got better (again)

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Tony Tune-age
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-12 18:56 By the way, the torque for the new motor is .2Nm even, half what it was with the old motor mount. The lower number is likely due to the foam pad now between the motor housing and SS top plate. It will obviously be sensitive to how much it is compressed. i found this torque on the first upgrade kit I installed and shared it with an LP12 owner in Germany. He tried it and said it was spot on. So at this point I am pretty confident in it. I didn't try a whole bunch of torques as I started with .2Nm which sounded quite good right off the bat. But I did try .4Nm and a range of torques above and below .2Nm. .2Nm even was where it all came together.
Has there been any torque values provided by Linn for the new motor? Or do Linn technicians have to figure out the appropriate values for themselves?
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by V.A.MKD »

Tony Tune-age wrote: 2021-11-14 22:28
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-12 18:47 It should be obvious to anyone who has been watching that Linn has succumbed to marketing speak for some time. The motor being accurate to 33.3333333 probably sounds cool to Hi-Fi publications and speed consistency is certainly important to the music. However, I would doubt that this level of speed accuracy is necessary or even audible but the other changes to the power supply, motor and motor mount, which are claimed to lower motor noise and give and vibration, are indeed likely to make for better perfromance. They just aren't as easy to make a big deal about.
Thanks for your insight Thomas, it's very useful and much appreciated as well. It's not easy getting useful or meaningful information from Hi-Fi publications.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by ThomasOK »

Tony Tune-age wrote: 2021-11-14 22:36
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-12 18:56 By the way, the torque for the new motor is .2Nm even, half what it was with the old motor mount. The lower number is likely due to the foam pad now between the motor housing and SS top plate. It will obviously be sensitive to how much it is compressed. i found this torque on the first upgrade kit I installed and shared it with an LP12 owner in Germany. He tried it and said it was spot on. So at this point I am pretty confident in it. I didn't try a whole bunch of torques as I started with .2Nm which sounded quite good right off the bat. But I did try .4Nm and a range of torques above and below .2Nm. .2Nm even was where it all came together.
Has there been any torque values provided by Linn for the new motor? Or do Linn technicians have to figure out the appropriate values for themselves?
No. Yes. Ditto the Ekstatik.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Tendaberry »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-17 00:58No. Yes. Ditto the Ekstatik.
Have you had a chance to try different torque values for the Ekstatik yet? Do you have a recommendation? A friend is having one fitted soon...
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Tendaberry wrote: 2021-11-17 11:09
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-17 00:58No. Yes. Ditto the Ekstatik.
Have you had a chance to try different torque values for the Ekstatik yet? Do you have a recommendation? A friend is having one fitted soon...
In the past, Linn did provide torque values for some of their better cartridges like the Akiva and Kandid. So it's really interesting that the Ekstatik doesn't have any recommended torque values from Linn, especially since it's priced so high.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by ThomasOK »

Tendaberry wrote: 2021-11-17 11:09
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-17 00:58No. Yes. Ditto the Ekstatik.
Have you had a chance to try different torque values for the Ekstatik yet? Do you have a recommendation? A friend is having one fitted soon...
No, I haven't. I own one but it will likely be at least a few weeks before I install it. I just finished upgrading my SINGularities to 1.3 and they will be breaking in. Then I have to listen to the LP12 as is, install the Radikal 2 and listen again (and break it in a bit). Once all that is accomplished I will install the Ekstatik. We did receive a second Ekstatik for a customer but it is for a new Klimax LP12 build that isn't being installed for a month or so. A third Ekstatik is on order for a customer upgrading to Radikal 2 as well so that will get installed as soon as the cartridge arrives (the Radikal upgrade kit is already here). Once I do have a proper torque I will let the forum know.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by ThomasOK »

Tony Tune-age wrote: 2021-11-17 14:29
Tendaberry wrote: 2021-11-17 11:09
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-17 00:58No. Yes. Ditto the Ekstatik.
Have you had a chance to try different torque values for the Ekstatik yet? Do you have a recommendation? A friend is having one fitted soon...
In the past, Linn did provide torque values for some of their better cartridges like the Akiva and Kandid. So it's really interesting that the Ekstatik doesn't have any recommended torque values from Linn, especially since it's priced so high.
Oh boy! Here is an opportunity for a new party game! (But only for a limited group of audiophiles.)

In the past Linn...

In the past Linn had recommended torques for their top cartridge
In the past Linn made analog preamps
In the past Linn made CD players
In the past Linn made great tuners
In the past Linn had one MM and one MC cartridge, then they had three of each, now they have three MCs and one MM.
In the past Linn?
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Spannko »

In the past, Quad was run by a genius and ruled the world. Then Linn and Naim, who were also run by genii, ruled the world. Then ………….
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by FairPlayMotty »

In the past you could sell Linn gear for respectable prices. You still can.

As I'll shortly do with two LK140s.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Defender »

in the past Linn had as streamer which was … (please fill to your convenience like SOTA or The best of the best) now Fredrik has a KILLA
Last edited by Defender on 2021-11-18 01:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by sktn77a »

In the past, Linn............. "Tighten everything as tight as possible - if it breaks, it was defective!"
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Tony Tune-age »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-11-17 18:16
Tony Tune-age wrote: 2021-11-17 14:29
In the past, Linn did provide torque values for some of their better cartridges like the Akiva and Kandid. So it's really interesting that the Ekstatik doesn't have any recommended torque values from Linn, especially since it's priced so high.
Oh boy! Here is an opportunity for a new party game! (But only for a limited group of audiophiles.)

In the past Linn...

In the past Linn had recommended torques for their top cartridge
In the past Linn made analog preamps
In the past Linn made CD players
In the past Linn made great tuners
In the past Linn had one MM and one MC cartridge, then they had three of each, now they have three MCs and one MM.
In the past Linn?
The Times They Are A-Changin'
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko wrote: 2021-11-17 21:53 In the past, Quad was run by a genius and ruled the world. Then Linn and Naim, who were also run by genii, ruled the world. Then ………….
Lejonklou came about, run by a genius who is extremely detail oriented (understatement)...
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by ThomasOK »

Time for a couple of updates. I have now installed several Radikal 2 upgrade kits, including my own last weekend. Though it wasn't even fully warmed up when I played it I was quite pleased. While it is not the earthshaking upgrade the original Radikal was from a Lingo 2 or 3, I still find it very worthwhile. Indeed if you remember the amount of improvement that change made I would say the Radikal 2 adds about another 50%. The flow of notes from a piano is more fluid with a more natural and real sounding resonance to the instrument, more like it was in the room. The sound of drumsticks or brushes hitting drums have a more real skin sound. Everything just comes through with a more real and musical feeling to it. On one piece I played the sax and some splashy cymbal work came in at the same time. On the Radikal 1 I was having a hard time sorting out the breath sound on the sax from the splash of the cymbals. The Radikal 2 cleared that all up and both sounded great. I have now also installed a couple of Ekstatiks, but not my own yet - probably in a week or two. I find that it definitely digs more music out of the groove than the Kandid and really brings the rhythms out. Subtleties of playing and intonation are improved and again more real sounding. I didn't do a lot of A/Bing but did some and I think it is a very fine cartridge. I am not hearing anything from either component I don't like.

As to the question of torques, there is some news a bit of which is confusing. Linn had changed the screws that hold the XLR connectors to the back of the case from the previous coarse threaded ones to very fine threaded machine screws. Torqueing these to the .4Nm -1.5 or 2 I used on the old ones would certainly strip the new screws. After some testing I found .2Nm -2 notches to be the most musical. Then I went to install another one yesterday and it had coarse screws! They work best at the old torque. Just for the heck of it I tried to use .2Nm -2 and found out that it won't even tighten the coarse screws back up at that level. The torques for the boards inside the case are the same as before. The best torque I found for the Ekstatik is .4Nm +2 notches. I didn't try going real high on this as I'm not sure how much torque the new bronze/aluminum fittings can take, but I feel it is likely significantly less that the stainless steel inserts on the Kandid. Since Linn was no help in even coming up with a suggested range I didn't want to push it. I started at .4 Nm (most cartridges with aluminum bodies, whether threaded or using conventional hardware, come in relatively near that torque) and went up and down a ways from there until I found the torque where it all seemed to come together musically. That is the torque I am using.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-09 17:55
Spannko wrote: 2021-11-17 21:53 In the past, Quad was run by a genius and ruled the world. Then Linn and Naim, who were also run by genii, ruled the world. Then ………….
Lejonklou came about, run by a genius who is extremely detail oriented (understatement)...
I’m beginning to wonder if IT should be removed from the list of geniuses, because I can’t think of one product he’s designed!
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko wrote: 2021-12-09 19:10
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-09 17:55
Spannko wrote: 2021-11-17 21:53 In the past, Quad was run by a genius and ruled the world. Then Linn and Naim, who were also run by genii, ruled the world. Then ………….
Lejonklou came about, run by a genius who is extremely detail oriented (understatement)...
I’m beginning to wonder if IT should be removed from the list of geniuses, because I can’t think of one product he’s designed!
Oooh, I wouldn't want to open that can of worms. Did julian design the NAP250 (the circuit was reported to be straight from an RCA handbook)? What did Edison actually design? Henry Ford?
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by ThomasOK »

Another update I forgot to put above. The new motor is still not a complete fix for the problem of the motor bottom pushing on the Trampolin2/Urika foot. I think I mentioned earlier that Linn had machined 1mm of the metal away on the bottom plate, as has been shown in several photos on the web. At the time I felt this might not be enough in some cases. My suspicion was proven correct this weekend when I installed an upgrade in an LP12 that had needed the wooden strips to fix the problem and it still needed them with the new motor.

The reason for this is the variable height of LP12 plinths, both from Linn and third parties. I have seen plinths go from 64mm high to above 66mm high. My experience in the past was that if the plinth was 65.5mm or taller it never needed the strips, if it was 65mm it often needed them but not always, and if it was below 65mm they were always needed. Why the variation on 65mm plinths? Because a wood plinth is not a precision item and it is not just the height of the plinth that is important. The depth of the rebate in the bottom of the plinth that the Trampolin/Urika fits into varies and plays a part as does the height of the wood strips the top plate sits on. The top plate is not always perfectly flush with the top of the plinth. So there can be small differences that change the distance between the top plate and the Trampolin foot. The strips I use have been effective with every LP12 I have had to put them on but they are basically 1.5mm thick. So they would increase the spacing of a 64mm plinth up to the equivalent of a 65.5mm plinth.

However, the 1mm cut on the Radikal 2 motor is not big enough to cover the worst cases. I installed the Radikal 2 motor onto a plinth that was only 64mm high and the test showed that the motor was still hard pressed against the foot. So the strips had to go back in. This was a plinth made by Chris Harban before he became aware of the Radikal problem and slightly increased the height of his plinths. But I have worked on a few Linn plinths that were 64mm as well. So these would also need the strips even with the new motor.

I would say that the rule of thumb is that if the plinth is 64.5mm or taller it should work fine with the new motor but below that it will likely still need the strips. When in doubt always test for it when installing a Radikal motor for the first time in a low plinth or before permanently removing strips that were perviously used.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Defender »

Thank you Thomas for the report. I come to the conclusion that I rather operate the LP12 with a normal bottom and the normal feet or no bottom. Because that solves many problems … also the problem that with the Trampolin the back hangs down and screws the perfect installtion.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by John »

Defender wrote: 2021-12-10 19:56 Thank you Thomas for the report. I come to the conclusion that I rather operate the LP12 with a normal bottom and the normal feet or no bottom. Because that solves many problems … also the problem that with the Trampolin the back hangs down and screws the perfect installtion.
It’s nice moving a LP12 from the jig to a shelf and the LP12 remains perfectly level and bouncing beautifully.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-10 17:32
Spannko wrote: 2021-12-09 19:10
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-09 17:55

Lejonklou came about, run by a genius who is extremely detail oriented (understatement)...
I’m beginning to wonder if IT should be removed from the list of geniuses, because I can’t think of one product he’s designed!
Oooh, I wouldn't want to open that can of worms. Did julian design the NAP250 (the circuit was reported to be straight from an RCA handbook)? What did Edison actually design? Henry Ford?
It appears as though IT and TE had a fair bit in common!
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Lego »

In the past Linn always strived to make the best hifi product in the world.
In the present Linn strive to make the best hifi products in the world.

Nothing has changed except past customers are now old and dudderry clambering for the past .
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2021-12-09 19:10
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-09 17:55
Spannko wrote: 2021-11-17 21:53 In the past, Quad was run by a genius and ruled the world. Then Linn and Naim, who were also run by genii, ruled the world. Then ………….
Lejonklou came about, run by a genius who is extremely detail oriented (understatement)...
I’m beginning to wonder if IT should be removed from the list of geniuses, because I can’t think of one product he’s designed!
Does designing something make you a genius Spannko?
I know quite a few designers and I wouldn't describe them as geniuses.
I know Ivor and he just describes himself as a hifi manufacturer.
I don't know where you got your list from .

Obviously in the very recent past you were bit of a Linn Lackey ,please don't end up becoming a Lejonklou Lackey as that's usually how that kind of behaviour pans out once there's a feeling of betrayal.Fancy a pint of Bitter?
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Spannko »

“Does designing something make you a genius?” No. Only your parents can make you a genius.

“Fancy a pint of bitter?” If you’re buying, but I’m a mild man tbh.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by Arjen »

Guinness, off the Record, boys, topped with a Shamrock. Tirconaill Bar, The Gorbals.
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Re: The LP12 just got better (again)

Post by tokenbrit »

Spannko wrote: 2021-12-12 15:03 “Does designing something make you a genius?” No. Only your parents can make you a genius.

“Fancy a pint of bitter?” If you’re buying, but I’m a mild man tbh.
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