LP12 Building Advice

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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by ThomasOK »

It would indeed have been fair to say that Rega dominate the budget tonearm market. It is pretty obvious that nobody can make as good an arm for $400 or $600 as what Rega makes so nobody even tries. But I haven't heard of any other turntable manufacturer who OEMs an RB3000, or even an RB880, not that there couldn't be someone. (I certainly don't keep track of all the turntables out there, especially since everybody and their brother now thinks they are qualified to make a turntable, or at least put their name on one or more.) Indeed the vast majority of OEMs don't even step up to the RB330 but stick with the stock RB220 or take it and modify it to make it "better". Seeing as Linn arms run $2400 or $4950 (until January 1st after which they will cost more, but so will Rega arms) they are in a different league as to OEM arm prices. So somehow it is no surprise people aren't beating down their door to OEM an Ekos SE/1. Not to mention that they are having a hard time keeping up with the demand for their arms and recently had to hire some new people to construct them so they could reduce the 10 to 12 week back order time on the Ekos SE/1.

As to how you rate them, to each his own. I used to sell Rega Planar 2s and 3s with Linn Basik+ arms as I felt they were better than the RB300 and RB250 of he time. Is an RB3000 better than an Ittok? Could well be. At $2445 (after January 1st) I would hope it would beat a 30 plus year old arm that would probably sell for about the same if it were made now. But I haven't done the comparison so I'm not sure. I still think the Ittok is quite a nice arm and have a hard time recommending somebody replace it if they aren't in a position to pay a few thousand dollars (and have done the upgrades that should precede an arm change).

To answer a question above, you can get a Kore for Rega arms but not a Keel. You can also, of course, get the Majik sub chassis and armboard for Rega arms (as well as for the Naim Aro and SME mount arms, just like the Kore). Linn did the work to make an Aro version of the Keel as there was enough demand for it to justify the research and production costs. It seems apparent that no similar demand has shown up for a Rega arm version of the Keel.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-12-23 00:48 It would indeed have been fair to say that Rega dominate the budget tonearm market. It is pretty obvious that nobody can make as good an arm for $400 or $600 as what Rega makes so nobody even tries. But I haven't heard of any other turntable manufacturer who OEMs an RB3000,
I'm not sure what you mean by OEM but if you mean selling the arm under their own name then yes, others have re-badged the RB2000. But I'm not sure what your point is? Most people stick with 'budget' Rega arms because they're already good enough to negate the need for a more expensive arm. Any Rega, with the exception of the 100-series found on the P1, will happily run a very good moving coil cartridge so a lot of people are happy to stick there. I also suspect that there is a limit to how good the Rega architecture can get. I've had the RB2000, RB3000 and stripped and rewired RB300 and I'm not sure there is a lot in it. OK, I'm confident that the top arms are better but I think we're taking degrees, polish on what is already a very good arm, but I suspect that you can't get the Rega design up to Ekos SE/PU7 territory without starting from scratch. I reckon the current RB3000 is probably about as good as you can get that configuration.

Putting a Linn Basik on a Planer 3?? I don't know what to say. I can only see that as being down to blind allegiance to Linn as the arms don't compare. The Linn Basik arms were very popular in their day with many being used on decks from AR, Systemdek, and other budget to mid-level manufacturers. When Rega launched the RB arms it killed demand for the Linn arms pretty much instantly. And that has never changed. The Regas are the best selling tonearms in the world and nobody other than LP12 users have any interest in Linn tonearms.

You can't infer anything about the quality of a product just because there is a waiting list. Lack of sufficient production capacity can happen for many reasons, heard of Covid for instance? I'm not saying the Ekos SE is a bad arm, I'm sure it's a very good arm, but things like a waiting list or even price don't really speak much of that. For example I know that Loud & Clear Glasgow dem the Ekos SE against the Audio Origami PU7 and sell a lot more PU7s. Yes, it's cheaper but we're talking about people who could afford either and it turns out a lot of them think the PU7 is better.

It's the same with the availability of Linn sub-chassis for Rega arms. I would have thought it fairly obvious that Linn really do not want you to put a Rega tonearm on your LP12. Have you ever thought about that? Does it not seem strange?

Prior to the availability of Linn tonearms, before they started buying them from Japan, people put all sorts of arms on the LP12. SME, Hadcock, Mayware you name it and no one thought anything of it. And Linn's first arms were not unique, they were bought from Japan and broadly similar to other Japanese arms from the same manufactures. Latterly you often saw things like the Naim Aro or today the PU7 on the LP12 and few bat an eye.

Yet there is this rumor that Rega arms don't work on the LP12? The most successful tonearm range in history is the only type of arm which doesn't work on the Linn? Really? The truth is that Linn don't want you to do it because if you do you'll find out what everyone else has known for decades, that Rega arms are astonishing value for money and Linn arms are not competitive.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Stephan »

I can not really understand your argument. You can buy both the Majik and Kore sub-chassis with a Rega mount. So Linn obviously do not have a problem with people putting Rega arms on the LP12, and why would they? You also give a good explanation yourself why there is no Rega variant of Keel when you say that the Rega arms probably are inferior to Ekos SE.
Or put another way. If you are spending the rather large amount of money that a Keel cost you probably in the end want the best tonearm you can possible get for your LP12, not being limited to what Rega can supply even if their arms are very good.

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Stephan (with an old Ekos2 and steel sub-chassis ;-)
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

I've just realized that I haven't updated this thread to let you know what I built, sorry about that.

The chassis is a 2018 mechanics kit. Cirkus bearing, limited edition fluted walnut plinth. To this I've nailed a Majik PSU, Stack Audio Tenor sub-chassis, standard Linn armboard and a Rega RB3000. I've tried a few cartridges but at the moment I'm using a Rega Exact.

It sounds great. The RB3000 seems to bring the dynamics, refinement and clarity from the RP10 while the LP12 has that full, lush sound we love. I came up with a new way to dress the Rega arm cable and it seems to work extremely well. Cable dressing is really critical on the LP12 a lot of people don't seem to understand what is going on, and speed stability suffers if it's wrong. Get it right and even with a Majik or Basik PSU speed stability is excellent.

So this is the best sounding deck I've owned. I've had ones with better PSUs but the Stack sub-chassis and RB3000 lift the whole deck and really tighten things up. Even with the lowly Exact I've got a cleaner, punchier and more solid sound than I got with the Ittok/Troika or modified RB300/OC9.

In the future I might look at the Karousel and a better PSU but in the short term I'd like a better cartridge. Looking at a Dynavector 20x2L, Rega Ania Pro, Nagaoka MP500 but I'm really not sure. Open to suggestions?

A month of so ago I rebuilt a friend's LP12, fitting a Stack Audio Tenor top-plate and sub-chassis. I listened to the deck for a while before and after, I had it for about two weeks. Those Stack parts cost £400 and the effect was dramatic! Smoother, cleaner, more full-bodies with more detail. It was just plain better across the board and not slightly. A very big upgrade.

So that's where I am. Happy to be back in LP12 Land :0)
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Discodave »

Glad to hear!
Can you refine your analysis concentrating on musicality only?
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

Discodave wrote: 2021-12-24 14:04 Can you refine your analysis concentrating on musicality only?
Sure.

My new turntable is more musical than my last one :0)
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Discodave »

🤣
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by u252agz »

It was suggested to me once by a very well known Linn dealer that they could build a starter deck for me using my RB 300 arm from my 1984 RP3, but I was put off after discussing with others whom I trust with LP 12 set up and who have fantastic tune dem abilities.

I ended up with a stock Majik deck which was in a different league to my Rega (still a good deck).

I would love to hear how musical your deck would sound with a comparable (price wise) Linn arm. Maybe an Akito 3B which I had for a while on my Majik deck and which with Kore was a huge improvement on my standard deck.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

u252agz wrote: 2021-12-24 17:51 I would love to hear how musical your deck would sound with a comparable (price wise) Linn arm.
Worse!

I've used LP12s for thirty years. I've had Basik LVX, Basik Plus, Akito and Ittok LVII arms. Had a lot of Rega arms too, I have six in the house just now. Two RB250s, a stripped and rewired RB300, a standard RB300, an RB303 and an RB3000. If an Ittok was better I'd still be using it.

You need to stop just beveling without question everything that Linn dealers tell you. I'm not saying it's all rubbish but some of it is pure propaganda aimed at keeping you in the Linn camp. The fundamental sound of the LP12 comes from the deck itself, not the arms. While the Linn arms are fine they are poor value. The cost of older ones is pushed up by demand because there are not many option for good Linn geometry arms at lower prices. The new ones are very expensive for what they are because....Linn!

But if you want to talk about 'the tune' and 'musical' then the Rega arms still win. Take for instance the RB300 vs the Ittok. The Ittok is better in 'Hi-Fi' terms. It has tighter bass, is more dynamic and is more detailed at the top end. It'll win a quick comparison with ease, but...

The RB300 has cleaner top end and is less coloured. In particular, it lacks the Ittok's mod-forward balance and upper-mid/lower treble glare. The result is that it sounds more neutral and cleaner. It is more tuneful than the Ittok! It also is much more forgiving of poorer vinyl. It'll make more of your records sound like music. You can enjoy records the Ittok sounds harsh on.

The Akito is a better comparison to the RB300 because it's actually less coloured than the Ittok but the Rega still beats it. It's not as good as the Ittok though as it's less dynamic and doesn't have the fantastic bass.

Depending on the context, I could happily use an Ittok, Ekos or even an Akito. They're good arms but the equivalent Rega arms are better. I could have put an Ittok or Ekos on this new LP12 but I wanted the best arm I could get for that kind of money, and that's the RB3000. And if I upgrade the arm it won't be an Ekos SE. It'll be a PU7 because it's just as good and half the price.

If you want to think Linn arms are the best available that's fine, you're free to believe what you want. But to be frank, absolutely no one outside of the Linn propaganda machine buys it. Even die hard LP12 fans like me have to admit that other arms are better value.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Stephan »

I have now checked the latest Rega tonearm offerings and think that especially the RB330 at 440€ and RB880 at 780€ could be very interesting alternatives if building a budget LP12.
Both Circus bearings, steel chassis, standard motors and Majik power supplies should be available for little money these days. Adding a AT-VM95 and you have almost a complete deck.
Linn have sourched their entry tonearm from three different suppliers: Project, Jelco and now Clearaudio.
They have obviously avoided the RB300-330 series for some reason.
I think that it is 11mm longer compared to Linn-arm, have a different mounting system and I have also heard that it does not work well with the LP12.
It feels like both Linn and Rega would benefit from cooperating.

When it comes to todays Akito III, it should be remembered that this is a completely different tonearm compared with the old Akitos and that it is supplied with a costly tonearm cable.
Have anyone compared this to other tonearms like the RB3000, RB880, Ittok and others using tunedem method and come to some conclusions. I feel that todays Akito is a tonearm you do not hear much about at all. Neither good or bad impressions?

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Stephan
Last edited by Stephan on 2021-12-25 15:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

Stephan wrote: 2021-12-25 11:22 Linn have sourched their entry tonearm from three different suppliers: Project, Jelco and now Clearaudio. They have obviously avoided the RB300-330 series for some reason.
The arms are different geometry for a start. Linn are not going to sell turntables who two different arm geometries. Rega can't make arm for Linn geometry as it would require a whole new casting just for that. And what intensive would they have? They already make the best selling tonearms in the world so they've got little to gain.
I have also heard that it does not work well with the LP12.
Yeah, I'm not sure who started that rumor but it has been circulating forever. Whether it was Linn or their dealers, I don't know but it's nonsense. Dressing the cable is harder because it's fixed and points the wrong way but it's not more than a slight inconvenience. Sonically, the arms are different from Linn arms, the lower ones especially, but so are the Aro, Nima and the many other arms regularly used on the LP12. I believe Rega have been singled out because these arms pose the biggest threat. The original RB250/300 utterly destroyed the Basic arms and worried the Ittok while being much cheaper. And today's Rega arms are better.
Have anyone compared this to other tonearms like the RB3000, RB880, Ittok and others using tunedem method and come to some conclusions. I feel that today's Akito is a tonearm you do not hear much about at all. Neither good or bad impressions?
I had an Ittok for twenty years. Trust me, the RB3000 is considerably better. I still prefer the looks of the Ittok to be honest, best looking arm ever made in my opinion, but the big Rega kills it. While costing less than the Akito!

I'm sure the Akito is a perfectly good arm, I liked the first version I had, but it's just an overpriced budget arm. I reckon it's probably on a par with a mid ranking Rega. Linn stuff is simply very expensive for what it is. A Linn lid cost about £140 while a Rega lid is £40, and comes with the hinges. The Majik power supply costs almost £400 and is no more than a couple of capacitors in a tin. Rega sell an entire integrated amplifier for the same price, the IO. Like many designer brands, you're paying for the name when you buy an Akito. Anyone looking for performance and value buys a Rega.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Azazello »

Mr Pig wrote: 2021-06-29 17:01
Tendaberry wrote: 2021-06-29 10:27 If you want to improve upon what you had before, how about the Karousel bearing?
Possibly but I've heard conflicting reports about it. Once the initial euphoria over the cleaner more detailed sound wears off it is less musically satisfying. I'm not ruling it out but I want to take it slow. Run with the cirkus for a while then think about what direction to go in next.
I’ve herd it’s worse.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

Azazello wrote: 2021-12-25 14:09 I’ve herd it’s worse.
Almost all of the opinions on the Karousel I've heard have been very positive. They say it's a really good upgrade and combines the best aspects of the Cirkus and pre-Cirkus bearings while having more detail than either. I remember similar hype about the Cirkus though which, although technically better, I felt lost some vibrancy, air and life to the old bearings.

I'll just wait until the dust settles and see. The cost does put me off I must admit. £750 is a heck of a lot for just a bearing.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by sktn77a »

I suspect turntable manufacturers steer clear of Rega arms for one reason - cost. They don't want Rega absorbing any of their profit. I doubt its anything to do with quality (manufacturing or sound). I'm guessing the other manufacturers you mention will do anything to get their arms on a Linn.

I'm surprised you didn't care for the Ittok - aside from a slight upper midrange brashness (which can largely be cured with a little scotch tape around the arm tube), I always thought it was right up there with the best and hard to beat at the price!
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

sktn77a wrote: 2021-12-29 22:27 I suspect turntable manufacturers steer clear of Rega arms for one reason - cost. They don't want Rega absorbing any of their profit.
Yes, I'm sure that if they are capable of making their own arms they would prefer to do that but other manufactures do use Rega arms. Nad, Goldring, Michell, and many others who have used Rega arms as a basis for their own modifications.
I'm surprised you didn't care for the Ittok
No, I did! I used an Ittok for twenty years. Pride of ownership was high, I loved the look of that arm, and I still think it's a great arm. I use an RB3000 now for two reason. Primarily because, it's better than the Ittok. It just is. Secondly because the Ittok is now effectively unsupported so should it develop a fault it may prove very difficult or impossible to get it fixed. The second would stop me buying an Ittok today but the main reason is that I try to maximize the sound I get for my money and the Rega is a better arm.

But because other, better alternatives exist doesn't stop the Ittok being a good arm. It's still a great arm and if I had to live with a deck with an Ittok on it I could do so happily.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by tpetsch »

Mr Pig wrote: 2021-12-25 19:05
Azazello wrote: 2021-12-25 14:09 I’ve herd it’s worse.
Almost all of the opinions on the Karousel I've heard have been very positive. They say it's a really good upgrade and combines the best aspects of the Cirkus and pre-Cirkus bearings while having more detail than either. I remember similar hype about the Cirkus though which, although technically better, I felt lost some vibrancy, air and life to the old bearings.

I'll just wait until the dust settles and see. The cost does put me off I must admit. £750 is a heck of a lot for just a bearing.
In my experience the Karousel is more in tune than the Cirkus but not clearly better than the pre-Circus black lined bearing. When the Cirkus came out I remember we sold a bunch at the shop even though we didn't understand it's existence at the time and wondered what they were thinking about back at Linn HQ. Although, feeling this way we didn't steer people away that had to have the "upgrade" -the Linn upgrade path really helped to pay the bills after all, brilliant marketing IMO, the shop depended on it, and selling a complete Rega TT -many RB300's sold on new LP12's though- for example took a back seat because that type of sale was a dead sale, that customer may never come back- but we really didn't push the Cirkus either back then because the Demos were not that cut and dry for the customer, especially on our Demo Keltik System, in fact we avoided demos of the Cirkus, the differences were very obvious to us at the shop though, but if a customer wanted one we obliged, the Brilliant PS upgrade was another at the time, also the Trampolin, this for us at the time was also a tune killer but necessary for those to help with a very bad room vibration situation only. ...Than, on the later Klimax system it was all such a mess that we came to the conclusion that Digital was now Linns main focus and the LP12 sales slowed and no one really cared anymore about LP12 upgrades & new decks came with the Cirkus any way. Then Knekt Multi-Room came along and worked out well for the shop, so for a while it was Kairk's, Numeriks, CD12's -think we sold over 25- and Knekt systems paying the bills at that time floating the shop along, even Naim took a back seat not having a Multi-room "System", kinda the final nail in the whole Linn/Naim relationship, Naim was struggling to find itself and it would take some time in this new world of digital, although the 52 and CDS found some homes. I can also remember interesting and heated conversations with the US Reps at the time about Linns/Naims direction going forward. ...Back to the Karousel, -got me run on reminiscing, sorry- a friend -ex Linn dealer/tech of 30+ years- and me -Ex PanAm A&E mechanic, machinist and stationary engineer, and Linn/Naim shop part time employee- even modified hardware so we can mount the new Karousel bearing on a PreCircus Kite in an attempt to achieve the best of both worlds -my idea-, this did not work out well either to say the least, total waste of time, but fun and needed to know.
Last edited by tpetsch on 2021-12-30 20:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Discodave »

This thread has got me thinking, cheers Mr. Pig.

As per my signature I have a Basik Plus which came with the deck. I used to run ATF7s on it which to me was an economical and nice fit. That was also when I ran Pre Cirkus bearing/subchassis and Hercules 2 PSU.

I now run a Rega Ania on the end of Basik Plus. Additional upgrades include Cirkus/Kore and Lingo 3. Very happy.

However, always aware that the Basik Plus was a bottleneck and on the hunt for a nice Ittok. Now Im thinking, hmmmm, given their age, price etc, maybe I should be looking at a Rega Arm or Roksan Nima. I doubt I will ever be in a position to go Akito 3B/Ekos (unless a great 2nd hand deal comes up). But I have a Linn Kore. If I was to go down the route of non linn arm is it a case of cannot do without buying a new Kore? In that case I have to stick with Linn arm.

Many thanks for any advice.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by ThomasOK »

Yes, you would need to have a different version of the Kore for a Rega arm. So Linn or Linn compatible arms are what would work without changing the sub chassis. (There are a few other arms that are designed to be compatible with a Linn standard arm mount.) I still have plenty of Ittoks coming through here and it is very rare to have one that is bad. The bearings seem to hold up very well over decades (unlike the Akito 1 which have a penchant for the horizontal bearings going bad) and no problems with internal arm wiring either. So as long as the arm is from a reputable source I would have no problem with a used Ittok. I haven't ever done a comparison with the soon to be $1325 Rega RB808 but I'd definitely prefer an Ittok to any of the Rega arms below that. There is also service available, not from Linn but from Audio Origami, on Ittok arms. I haven't had the need to use them yet but other buddies among LP12 dealers tell me they are reliable.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

Discodave wrote: 2021-12-30 13:26 As per my signature I have a Basik Plus....I now run a Rega Ania on the end of Basik Plus. Additional upgrades include Cirkus/Kore and Lingo 3. Very happy.
If I were you I would be changing the arm as the Basik is well out of its depth. Yes, you would need to change the sub-chassis to accommodate a Rega arm. I would look at Stack Audio ones as they are really good value so by the time you sell the Kore the cost should be negligible.

It's boring but I struggle to see past Rega arms these days. I didn't even consider fitting anything else to my new LP12, Rega arms just get the job done so beautifully. The Ittok is still of course a very good arm and not exactly a poor choice.

Unfortunately Audio Origami no longer service the Ittok or Ekos. This is a real shame as I don't know of anyone else who does. I know Johnnie personally and he said it was mainly due to parts availability so I guess that would be a problem for anyone wishing to service them. If you buy one there is every chance it will keep working just fine for a long time but it is a risk. Tracking weight springs were breaking twenty years ago and the bearings can get knocked out. If I had one I doubt I'd be rushing to sell it but I wouldn't rush to buy one either. I'd go for a Rega or if funds permitted a PU7.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-30 00:25 In my experience the Karousel is more in tune than the Cirkus but not clearly better than the pre-Circus black lined bearing.
Very interesting post, thank you.

I got the Cirkus shortly after it came out and was very impressed with it at first. In Hi-Fi ways it was clearly better. It was only after a while I started to realize I was less satisfied with the deck and not enjoying it as much. Persevered for years until someone who knew of my dissatisfaction said 'It's the Cirkus'.

I took it out and put an old style bearing in and didn't consider fitting a Cirkus again.

My new deck is a Cirkus, because good quality older bearings are thin on the ground, but I'm fine with it. I assume the better sub-chassis and arm tip the balance enough. Having said that I had a friend's pre-Cirkus here for some updates recently and that deck sounds great!

If the Karousel sounds like the pre-Cirkus bearing that to me is a very good thing. Just a shame it's so expensive.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by tpetsch »

Mr Pig wrote: 2021-12-30 22:02
tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-30 00:25 In my experience the Karousel is more in tune than the Cirkus but not clearly better than the pre-Circus black lined bearing.
Very interesting post, thank you.

I got the Cirkus shortly after it came out and was very impressed with it at first. In Hi-Fi ways it was clearly better. It was only after a while I started to realize I was less satisfied with the deck and not enjoying it as much. Persevered for years until someone who knew of my dissatisfaction said 'It's the Cirkus'.

I took it out and put an old style bearing in and didn't consider fitting a Cirkus again.

My new deck is a Cirkus, because good quality older bearings are thin on the ground, but I'm fine with it. I assume the better sub-chassis and arm tip the balance enough. Having said that I had a friend's pre-Cirkus here for some updates recently and that deck sounds great!

If the Karousel sounds like the pre-Cirkus bearing that to me is a very good thing. Just a shame it's so expensive.
Yea, That's a good point, probably near impossible today to source a good quality vintage bearing, but for all those with Cirkus, moving to a new Karousel is the right move.

And I like the points you're making about the Rega Tonearms, I always thought they were great value for the money and over the past several years they're being recognized as a High-End manufacturer of gear instead of just Mid-Fi, a label they have been carrying for too many years and is tough to shake off.
When I first bought my first LP12 30 years ago the tonearm I choose was an RB300, I didn't think at the time that the Ittok was that much better and I held out for the Ekos and took out my first credit union loan to get one when it came out. But Wow, Rega's top of the line tonearms and decks have come a long way since then and people should take notice. But turning a customer on to Rega's top of the line gear won't happen at a Linn dealer that also happens to carry Rega, not if they can help it anyway..
Rega P10, Aphelion II, Aura. Naim CB 32.5/HC, Naxo 3-6/HC, 3x250 into K20/DMS.
u252agz
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by u252agz »

tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-31 05:37
Mr Pig wrote: 2021-12-30 22:02
tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-30 00:25 In my experience the Karousel is more in tune than the Cirkus but not clearly better than the pre-Circus black lined bearing.
Very interesting post, thank you.

I got the Cirkus shortly after it came out and was very impressed with it at first. In Hi-Fi ways it was clearly better. It was only after a while I started to realize I was less satisfied with the deck and not enjoying it as much. Persevered for years until someone who knew of my dissatisfaction said 'It's the Cirkus'.

I took it out and put an old style bearing in and didn't consider fitting a Cirkus again.

My new deck is a Cirkus, because good quality older bearings are thin on the ground, but I'm fine with it. I assume the better sub-chassis and arm tip the balance enough. Having said that I had a friend's pre-Cirkus here for some updates recently and that deck sounds great!

If the Karousel sounds like the pre-Cirkus bearing that to me is a very good thing. Just a shame it's so expensive.
Yea, That's a good point, probably near impossible today to source a good quality vintage bearing, but for all those with Cirkus, moving to a new Karousel is the right move.

A few people on the Forum ( including myself ) prefer the Cirkus to the Karousel - the majority seem to prefer Karousel.

Best to have a listen to both, although probably getting increasingly difficult as Karousel is the standard bearing on all new decks, and in a few years from now, Cirkus will become like the old pre-cirkus bearings and good ones will be difficult/ impossible to source.

My own preference was so strong that I chose to have a free spare 'cirkus' bearing with Linns offer in 2020.

I have heard Charlie 1's clips of a Valhalla/Black Liner Bearing deck, on the forum and it sounds really great.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

Kalla/Giella Pi/JBL308/RS2e

Majik LP12/Boazu/110s
Mr Pig
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-31 05:37 But Wow, Rega's top of the line tonearms and decks have come a long way since then and people should take notice. But turning a customer on to Rega's top of the line gear won't happen at a Linn dealer that also happens to carry Rega, not if they can help it anyway..
There is truth in that. Linn impose quotas on their dealers, they do in the UK anyway, and the profit margin on Linn is higher than on Rega. So a dealer will be more inclined to push Linn, that has been my experience anyway.

But while I'm a big fan of Rega I don't blindly push their products. I had an RP10 for two years, actively disliked it and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. A well sorted LP12 is a much more musical record player.

The arms are great though.

With so many aftermarket parts I've often wondered why no one made a bearing like the old Linn one.
tpetsch
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by tpetsch »

Mr Pig wrote: 2021-12-31 16:44
tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-31 05:37 But Wow, Rega's top of the line tonearms and decks have come a long way since then and people should take notice. But turning a customer on to Rega's top of the line gear won't happen at a Linn dealer that also happens to carry Rega, not if they can help it anyway..
There is truth in that. Linn impose quotas on their dealers, they do in the UK anyway, and the profit margin on Linn is higher than on Rega. So a dealer will be more inclined to push Linn, that has been my experience anyway.

But while I'm a big fan of Rega I don't blindly push their products. I had an RP10 for two years, actively disliked it and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. A well sorted LP12 is a much more musical record player.

The arms are great though.

With so many aftermarket parts I've often wondered why no one made a bearing like the old Linn one.
IMO Rega has come a long way since the 2013 RP-10, my X-dealer friend had one several years ago and I thought it was OK at the time, nothing special, no LP12, more like a working prototype that had potential. Then my friend brought a P8 Apheta II home on Demo from another friends shop and I thought this was starting to be on par with my LP12 in some ways while very interesting in other ways, Rega is on to something here I thought, but I still held on to my LP12. Then my buddy picked up a P10 -for himself- with Apheta III, called me and said
"You need to listen to this", I did, and I was instantly grabbed by it's tune and locomotive Prat, I had never heard anything like it, a total game changer in my experience and it all just clicked for me personally. I borrowed his P10 and hooked it up to my system for two weeks going back and forth with my LP12 and the P10 and the one thing that became clear to me was this inherent coloration embedded in the LP12's DNA, now I cant get away from it, it's always there and I can only describe the experience as a lingering, floating fatness that engulfs the whole musical experience. Three friends of mine also own LP12's all with different degrees of updates and that coloration is there now for me in every one of them, and like the saying goes, Once you know you know. ...Long story short, I'm now listening to a P10, Aphelion II and Aura, and every day I'm blown away by the experience this new vinyl set-up delivers and breaths new life into my system. The best way I can describe my P10, Aphelion II, Aura experience as a whole is try imagining a tool that simply extracts only the musical information from the groove and then transfers only that information along in a precision timely matter without any coloration added from any of it's parts. - And by the way, I never thought anything could ever prise my 30 year old Rosewood LP12 away from me, it always made me happy but things change but there was simply no convincing myself this time otherwise.
Rega P10, Aphelion II, Aura. Naim CB 32.5/HC, Naxo 3-6/HC, 3x250 into K20/DMS.
Mr Pig
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Mr Pig »

tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-31 19:57 I borrowed his P10 and hooked it up to my system for two weeks going back and forth with my LP12 and the P10 and the one thing that became clear to me was this inherent coloration embedded in the LP12's DNA...
Interesting, thanks for sharing that experience.

I know the LP12 is coloured, but I like the colouration.

The first thing I noticed about the RP10 was how 'clean' it was compared to the LP12. If you read reviews of any of these decks they always talk about hearing only what's on the record and the lack of colouration. This would be great if what was on the record was enough!

If I think about my record collection, maybe about 10 to 20% sound really good? Another 30 to 40% are not too bad with the rest being fairly poor. A lot of modern vinyl tends to sound thick but historically the poorer records sound thin and lightweight.

But I don't want my record player to choose what music I play, I want to enjoy as many of my records as I can, so I try to balance my system to do that. In this respect, an LP12 is LOT better than a top Rega. Ironically, Rega arms are actually better in this respect than Linn ones but the warmth and weight added by the LP12 makes good records sound more realistic and poor ones at least listenable.

And I know the P10 is 'better' than the RP10 but what they mean by that is that it's even less coloured and more clinical sounding. After all it's very similar to the RP10, it just has an even smaller 'plinth', fractionally better arm and no option to fit an outer plinth and lid. Incidentally, I tried the RP10 in all configurations and preferred to use it with the outer plinth but with the lid up. Despite the fact that it only touched the chassis vie three soft rubber bands the outer plinth added a much needed degree of weight to the sound although it did hurt clarity a little. Playing with the lid down dramatically mucked up the sound!

I know what a P-bass sounds like, I know what a saxophone sounds like and I know what a good singer sounds like. What these top Rega decks do is show you hyper-detailed, super clear cardboard cutouts of them. The LP12 might not be quite as detailed but it sounds like a real P-bass and a real person performing for you, and for me that makes a world of difference.

By the way, I have an RB3000 on my LP12 and in terms of detail, relative to the RP10, I don't think I'm missing anything at all. Rega arms are very good and we shouldn't underestimate how much they contribute.
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