LP12 Building Advice

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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tpetsch
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by tpetsch »

u252agz wrote: 2021-12-31 09:22
tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-31 05:37
Mr Pig wrote: 2021-12-30 22:02

Very interesting post, thank you.

I got the Cirkus shortly after it came out and was very impressed with it at first. In Hi-Fi ways it was clearly better. It was only after a while I started to realize I was less satisfied with the deck and not enjoying it as much. Persevered for years until someone who knew of my dissatisfaction said 'It's the Cirkus'.

I took it out and put an old style bearing in and didn't consider fitting a Cirkus again.

My new deck is a Cirkus, because good quality older bearings are thin on the ground, but I'm fine with it. I assume the better sub-chassis and arm tip the balance enough. Having said that I had a friend's pre-Cirkus here for some updates recently and that deck sounds great!

If the Karousel sounds like the pre-Cirkus bearing that to me is a very good thing. Just a shame it's so expensive.
Yea, That's a good point, probably near impossible today to source a good quality vintage bearing, but for all those with Cirkus, moving to a new Karousel is the right move.

A few people on the Forum ( including myself ) prefer the Cirkus to the Karousel - the majority seem to prefer Karousel.

Best to have a listen to both, although probably getting increasingly difficult as Karousel is the standard bearing on all new decks, and in a few years from now, Cirkus will become like the old pre-cirkus bearings and good ones will be difficult/ impossible to source.

My own preference was so strong that I chose to have a free spare 'cirkus' bearing with Linns offer in 2020.

I have heard Charlie 1's clips of a Valhalla/Black Liner Bearing deck, on the forum and it sounds really great.
Another thing I should mention is that after baking in the new Karousel bearing running constantly for like 5 days it was gelling better, so folks should consider this and not rush to judgement to soon after install.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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Mr Pig wrote: 2022-01-01 11:40
tpetsch wrote: 2021-12-31 19:57 I borrowed his P10 and hooked it up to my system for two weeks going back and forth with my LP12 and the P10 and the one thing that became clear to me was this inherent coloration embedded in the LP12's DNA...
Interesting, thanks for sharing that experience.

I know the LP12 is coloured, but I like the colouration.

The first thing I noticed about the RP10 was how 'clean' it was compared to the LP12. If you read reviews of any of these decks they always talk about hearing only what's on the record and the lack of colouration. This would be great if what was on the record was enough!

If I think about my record collection, maybe about 10 to 20% sound really good? Another 30 to 40% are not too bad with the rest being fairly poor. A lot of modern vinyl tends to sound thick but historically the poorer records sound thin and lightweight.

But I don't want my record player to choose what music I play, I want to enjoy as many of my records as I can, so I try to balance my system to do that. In this respect, an LP12 is LOT better than a top Rega. Ironically, Rega arms are actually better in this respect than Linn ones but the warmth and weight added by the LP12 makes good records sound more realistic and poor ones at least listenable.

And I know the P10 is 'better' than the RP10 but what they mean by that is that it's even less coloured and more clinical sounding. After all it's very similar to the RP10, it just has an even smaller 'plinth', fractionally better arm and no option to fit an outer plinth and lid. Incidentally, I tried the RP10 in all configurations and preferred to use it with the outer plinth but with the lid up. Despite the fact that it only touched the chassis vie three soft rubber bands the outer plinth added a much needed degree of weight to the sound although it did hurt clarity a little. Playing with the lid down dramatically mucked up the sound!

I know what a P-bass sounds like, I know what a saxophone sounds like and I know what a good singer sounds like. What these top Rega decks do is show you hyper-detailed, super clear cardboard cutouts of them. The LP12 might not be quite as detailed but it sounds like a real P-bass and a real person performing for you, and for me that makes a world of difference.

By the way, I have an RB3000 on my LP12 and in terms of detail, relative to the RP10, I don't think I'm missing anything at all. Rega arms are very good and we shouldn't underestimate how much they contribute.
I can appreciate all you're saying about becoming comfortable with that inherent LP12 coloration, guess it always made me feel warm a cozy too until realizing that coloration casts it's haze over everything you play on it, and contrary to your feelings about it being more natural, I find it's all colored now, and Bass is not an issue at all with the P10 IMO, if the bass is on the vinyl then it's coming thru the speakers, it won't manufacture it artificially, it's that simple. ...I'm also now finding myself playing more of those stored away records, we all know the ones, all those records in deeper storage that you kinda forgot about but when you find them again it all comes rushing back and you instantly remember how bad they sounded? well, it's many of those records that I'm now enjoying listening to on my P10 set-up that otherwise offered close to zero musical enjoyment on my LP12.
Last edited by tpetsch on 2022-01-02 00:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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Mr Pig wrote: 2022-01-01 11:40 Despite the fact that it only touched the chassis vie three soft rubber bands the outer plinth added a much needed degree of weight to the sound although it did hurt clarity a little.
It seems a reminder of how we evaluate performance on this forum is needed: We use the Tune Method.

This is also the only way to build a really good turntable, amplifier, streamer or system. At each and every step of the way, we judge musically better from musically worse.

Focusing on and balancing various sound properties against one another is very reliable way of ending up with poor musical performance.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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Let's also remember that in the source first hierarchy the tonearm is the second least important component of the record playback system. The tonearm will only perform as well as the musical capabilities of the upstream components will allow.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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markiteight wrote: 2022-01-02 00:23 Let's also remember that in the source first hierarchy the tonearm is the second least important component of the record playback system. The tonearm will only perform as well as the musical capabilities of the upstream components will allow.
I'm sure you mean the second most important, No? ...Turntable, tonearm, cartridge, phonostage, pre-amp and so on down the line to the speakers being the least important? ...We used to have a saying, it doesn't matter how good your system is if your front end is a Mickey Mouse Close n' Play, nothing can fix whatever sound that produces down the line..
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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No. I meant that it is the second least important component of the record playback system. Plinth, top plate, base, platter interface, platter, bearing (exact order subject to correction), power supply, sub-chassis, arm, cartridge.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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markiteight wrote: 2022-01-02 00:58 No. I meant that it is the second least important component of the record playback system. Plinth, top plate, base, platter interface, platter, bearing (exact order subject to correction), power supply, sub-chassis, arm, cartridge.
Gotcha, I just assumed that all fell under "Turntable", and the record play back "System" was turntable, arm, Cartridge and perhaps phonostage. But I see where your coming from being there's now probably around 97 ways to build up an LP12.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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tpetsch wrote: 2022-01-02 01:08
markiteight wrote: 2022-01-02 00:58 record playback system
Gotcha, I just assumed that all fell under "Turntable", and the record play back "System" was turntable, arm, Cartridge and perhaps phonostage. But I see where your coming from being there's now probably around 97 ways to build up an LP12.
I wrestled with the exact phraseology to avoid any confusion and missed the mark, so I appreciate you seeking clarification.

You do bring up a good point, though. Whilst the tonearm is low on the record playback system (as a source) hierarchy, it is still part of the source and as such is of fundamental importance to the rest of the system (as a whole). That apparent contradiction makes it easy to put undue emphasis on the arm (and the cartridge). Take my LP12, for example. When it was new its configuration (Cirkus/Lingo/Ekos...) was considered well balanced, but in the context of improvements that have since been made to the LP12 (Harban plinths, Kore/Keel, Lingo4/Radikal, Karousel(?), to name a few) it could be considered unbalanced WRT source first. In other words, a well equipped and well set up deck will provide a foundation that would enable my Ekos to perform well beyond what was envisioned when it was designed. Indeed that would be the case with any tonearm, to the extent that a lesser arm in a well equipped (lets say...Radikal and Keel in a Harban plinth) and well set up 'table will out perform the Ekos (in any of its incarnations) in my LP12. This can lead to the false impression that a lesser/cheaper arm is better than a superior/costlier arm. It is therefore fundamentally important that when discussing the performance of a particular component that it be done within the context of the source first hierarchy.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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markiteight wrote: 2022-01-02 00:58 No. I meant that it is the second least important component of the record playback system. Plinth, top plate, base, platter interface, platter, bearing (exact order subject to correction), power supply, sub-chassis, arm, cartridge.
Hold on Mi8,are you saying I should upgrade my plinth before I go for a Karousel !?
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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I think you missed 'exact order subject to correction', Lego.

The main bearing is perhaps the most important part of the LP12 and the plinth is way down on the list.

That I am not convinced of Karousel is a different matter entirely. I have installed a bunch of them, tried various torques and listened to them new and well run in. Also made some clips of Cirkus vs Karousel on the same deck, and I've listened to those clips many, many times, because I find it such a complex and difficult comparison. In short, I think some things are better with Karousel and some (to me essential) things are lost.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-02 20:17 I think you missed 'exact order subject to correction', Lego.

The main bearing is perhaps the most important part of the LP12 and the plinth is way down on the list.

That I am not convinced of Karousel is a different matter entirely. I have installed a bunch of them, tried various torques and listened to them new and well run in. Also made some clips of Cirkus vs Karousel on the same deck, and I've listened to those clips many, many times, because I find it such a complex and difficult comparison. In short, I think some things are better with Karousel and some (to me essential) things are lost.
For clarification, is the hierarchy expressed by MI8 based only on the LP12 and not the plethora of modern turntables with a completely different design philosophy?
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-02 20:17 I think you missed 'exact order subject to correction', Lego.

The main bearing is perhaps the most important part of the LP12 and the plinth is way down on the list.

That I am not convinced of Karousel is a different matter entirely. I have installed a bunch of them, tried various torques and listened to them new and well run in. Also made some clips of Cirkus vs Karousel on the same deck, and I've listened to those clips many, many times, because I find it such a complex and difficult comparison. In short, I think some things are better with Karousel and some (to me essential) things are lost.
I hear you Fredrik.For me the price lends itself to satisfy my morbid curiosity on this occasion combined with an AT95.

If I don't like it ,I'll just listen to my records until something better comes along and if it's another 30 yrs,I'll probably not be here :0)
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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FairPlayMotty wrote: 2022-01-02 20:58 For clarification, is the hierarchy expressed by MI8 based only on the LP12 and not the plethora of modern turntables with a completely different design philosophy?
The hierarchy knows no brand loyalties. The example I mentioned was LP12 specific, but Source First applies within practicable limitations regardless of what name is on the label or their design philosophy.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-02 20:17 I think you missed 'exact order subject to correction', Lego.
I missed that too because the use of parenthesis implies that "exact order subject to correction" applies to the bearing in the sentence used.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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markiteight wrote: 2022-01-02 21:54The hierarchy knows no brand loyalties.
I do agree with source first hierarchy, including the components of the turntable, but there are limits.

The law of diminishing returns means that towards the top of the performance ladder you are paying a lot of money for slight improvements. So it makes no sense to upgrade from a Lingo3 to a LIngo4 if you're still running a Basik arm and AT-95e cartridge. Yes, it might sound better but if you upgraded the arm and cartridge instead you'd get a bigger difference.

Likewise, running a top-spec LP12 with cheap integrated amp and budget bookshelf speakers isn't going to be the best distribution of funds.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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I think you have misunderstood the Hierarchy, Mr Pig.

There is no law of diminishing results that topples the Hierarchy. Even a tiny improvement made at a more fundamental level will outweigh a massive improvement later in the chain. Musically speaking, that is. You may personally prefer the sound of big loudspeakers and sacrifice some musicality to achieve that, but when judging performance using the Tune Method, the hierarchy happens to rule every time. At least every time I've tested it for the last three decades.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-02 23:33 There is no law of diminishing results that topples the Hierarchy. Even a tiny improvement made at a more fundamental level will outweigh a massive improvement later in the chain.
Gonna have to disagree with you then. If you think a top-spec LP12 playing into a cheap amp and £50 worth of bookshelf speakers makes sense there is nothing I can say. It's like a time-warp back to 1980 and the Linn propaganda machine running at full steam.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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The Hierarchy is a repeated practical finding, not a made up rule. Countless of times I have wanted, and tried to achieve, a result that broke its pattern. So far I have failed, every single time.

If you are using the Tune Method to evaluate performance, you will end up with the same result. But you need to 1) Master the Tune Method, and 2) Test things in real life, completely without prejudice.

That one leads to the other is why I decided both to be a prerequisite for participation in this forum.

By the way: "Making sense" is something different than telling musically better from worse. Very few people put all their money on the source, because they choose to sacrifice some musical performance for a nicer/bigger/more impressive sound.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-03 00:11 That one leads to the other is why I decided both to be a prerequisite for participation in this forum.
So you are saying that you must only use 'the tune dem' to asses Hi-Fi in order to participate in this forum? Or....what?
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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If you haven't read the rules, it's time that you do.

https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... 4&p=51#p51
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-02 20:17 I think you missed 'exact order subject to correction', Lego.

The main bearing is perhaps the most important part of the LP12 and the plinth is way down on the list.

That I am not convinced of Karousel is a different matter entirely. I have installed a bunch of them, tried various torques and listened to them new and well run in. Also made some clips of Cirkus vs Karousel on the same deck, and I've listened to those clips many, many times, because I find it such a complex and difficult comparison. In short, I think some things are better with Karousel and some (to me essential) things are lost.
Are you running a pre-Cirkus, Cirkus or Karousel on your personal LP12 in the end? And why this choice?
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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Topkho wrote: 2022-02-22 13:54
lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-02 20:17 I think you missed 'exact order subject to correction', Lego.

The main bearing is perhaps the most important part of the LP12 and the plinth is way down on the list.

That I am not convinced of Karousel is a different matter entirely. I have installed a bunch of them, tried various torques and listened to them new and well run in. Also made some clips of Cirkus vs Karousel on the same deck, and I've listened to those clips many, many times, because I find it such a complex and difficult comparison. In short, I think some things are better with Karousel and some (to me essential) things are lost.
Are you running a pre-Cirkus, Cirkus or Karousel on your personal LP12 in the end? And why this choice?
Hi Topkho!

I have a Cirkus on my personal LP12, for the reasons I explained above.

It's been some years since I last heard a pre-Cirkus LP12 and much longer since I made anything resembling a comparison. As these bearings have all seen decades of use, are they even worth considering?

When Cirkus was first introduced, I worked in retail and remember that some preferred the old bearing. I personally felt that Cirkus was superior and that it was an easy choice. Could I have been wrong? Well, at the time I also thought that bi-wiring and passive bi-amping of loudspeakers was an improvement, which required my wife to straighten out (I bi-amped our Tukan's at home, she complained that it was less musical and I found that she was right). So it's possible. But the times that I've heard a pre-Cirkus LP12, I haven't felt any particular thrill.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-03 00:11 Very few people put all their money on the source, because they choose to sacrifice some musical performance for a nicer/bigger/more impressive sound.
……. and every time I’ve tried to achieve a “reasonable” balance by sacrificing even a minute amount of musicality for a smoother/bigger/punchier/warmer or any one of a multitude of HiFi criteria, I’ve lived to regret it.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

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Spannko wrote: 2022-02-23 11:40
lejonklou wrote: 2022-01-03 00:11 Very few people put all their money on the source, because they choose to sacrifice some musical performance for a nicer/bigger/more impressive sound.
……. and every time I’ve tried to achieve a “reasonable” balance by sacrificing even a minute amount of musicality for a smoother/bigger/punchier/warmer or any one of a multitude of HiFi criteria, I’ve lived to regret it.
I'm sure many (most?) of us have had this experience.
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Re: LP12 Building Advice

Post by lejonklou »

Oh yes, many times!
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