Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

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TMV
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by TMV »

Exakt-link passes the digital audio data, master clock from the Linn DS/DSM/Hub and power trigger down one CAT-5 ethernet cable.to the Exakt loudspeaker, Exaktbox or Urika-II.

The master clock is held within the Linn DS/DSM/Hub and makes sure that the music is always on-time/in-tune with every other Exakt loudspeaker.

https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/ ... nformation
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by ThomasOK »

The hub will also need to have a clock to manage the ADC and also as all digital data entering an Exakt Hub is converted to 24/192 before being sent out the ExaktLink sockets. Only data coming in at 24/192 would not need this conversion so a clock in the hub is necessary. Whether the Organik DAC board includes a superior clock that takes over for the whole chassis is another question.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by Pedro »

In the "Linn Organik DAC" video only the board with the Organik DAC is shown, so you have to assume that the new clock Philbo is talking about is on this circuitboard.
Philbo says: „For organik dac we have specified the most accurate lowest jitter digital clock available, a clock that is accurate down to femtoseconds, 1 millionth of 1 billionth of a second, …”

What Thomas said also makes sense, that there must be another clock in the hub....
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by ThomasOK »

I think assuming the clock is on the DAC board based on that video is possibly too much of an assumption. While they focus on part of the board when they talk about the clock, they also show pretty little lines of light flowing in different manners through the "flip-flops", something I don't expect to see if I opened one up. :-) I also noticed that early in the video they mentioned that they had developed a "carefully designed clock distribution network" for the Organik DAC so the clock may not actually be on the DAC board but could be on the lower digital input board. Having implemented the very precise clock on the input board, that then also clocks the ADC board and DAC board, might partially explain the improved musical perfromance people are finding on the new System Hub.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by PetterS »

donuk wrote: 2021-05-17 09:59
Hearing acoustical instruments perform live incorporates the same effect. Higher frequencies travels faster. In fact, a good symphony orchestra compensates this effect to a certain degree by having the double basses being slightly "pushy" in there playing. The same in a jazz quartet, with the bass being pushy and the solo saxophone/trumpet/vocalist being slightly "laid back". So is that part of the problem I did experience with the Ellington example earlier in the thread? Clearly something was moved time-wise in the stream compared to the vinyl. But if the problem is in the stream, it won't be solved by digital delays like Exakt either, or?And do I even want to be hit at the same time by both bass and treble instruments? Does that "wall effect" sound natural in acoustic music?
Could you provide a reference for this information please?

Donuk
Well, the claim that high frequencies travel faster seems to be partly debunked. I thought it was linear but according to the quotes from Wikipedia it seems to be valid only for the lowest frequencies. However LINN stated: "The lower the frequency, the more it’s delayed as it passes through the crossover".

The reference for timing within Symphony Orchestra and Jazz ensembles is based on my professional life-long experiences. But there is also research done:
JAZZ
Another aspect of swing is the soloist's timing in relation to the accompaniment. For example, a soloist can be characterized as playing "behind the beat."
https://online.ucpress.edu/mp/article-a ... m=fulltext
The average onset difference time between bass and drums (bass–drums) was −0.218 seconds. The average onset difference time between saxophone and bass (sax–bass) was −0.369 seconds. The average onset difference time between saxophone and drums (sax–drums) was −0.405 seconds.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 5614555790

Symphony Orchestra
This thread discusses my claim about slightly pushy bass-playing:
https://music.stackexchange.com/questio ... -orchestra

However, what is due to actual delay regarding frequency or what is due to aesthetic perception "harmonies builds from low to high" can be discussed. But there might be also another thing to consider, which is the field of psycho-acoustics.
Another possible explanation for humans’ greater sensitivity to low-leading asynchronies relates to the behavior of some sound sources and acoustic enclosures. As with the cochlea, low-frequency sounds can take longer to reach their maximum amplitude than high-frequency sounds that begin at the same time.
https://www.pnas.org/content/114/5/1201

and
Cochlear filtering results in earlier responses to high than to low frequencies.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3272712/

One final thing, When recording acoustic music, there is two main different traditions with either the studio setup (close microphones to every section and/or instrument, or the Decca tree setup (from outside) or a mixture of both. Arguably the timing will be slightly different in the recordings with the different setups. Hence, I will always be slightly skeptical towards the studio approach but also to the strive for perfect vertical alignment in acoustic music, be it so done in the studio or by clever electronic circuits.

However, since my whole post is off-topic, moderator feel free to erase or remove.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by Moomintroll »

TMV wrote: 2021-05-18 15:58
Pedro wrote: 2021-05-18 14:52 No, the new clock is not in the Hub.
Are you sure? I think the clock is on the streaming board supplying the clock to internal ADC/DAC or external Exakt devices.
Correct - the new master clock is definitely included in the hub, it is one of the benefits that Linn list for the hub.

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by Catweazle »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-05-18 18:37 I also noticed that early in the video they mentioned that they had developed a "carefully designed clock distribution network" for the Organik DAC
That's a very interesting point, also from a different angle: When Linn decided to implement their proprietary DAC by discrete flip-flops, they obviously accepted the challenge, to synchronize the (necessarily individual) trigger signals of these flip-flops. When we look at the circuit board, we see that great care has been taken to "fold" the conducting paths, apparently, to make them as exactly equal length as possible. Is this challenge a disadvantage of the discrete design, or rather an advantage? At least, Linn is in control of this topic now. What do we know about the triggering precision of the respective bits in an off-the-shelf integrated DAC? I'm not an expert on this, but I'd suspect, that this topic maybe a reason why different DACs sound different, and why Organik sounds superior. In the end the sole purpose of a DAC is to switch to the right voltage at the right time. Highest precision of voltage means nothing without correct timing.
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Tim .......ing

Post by Ron The Mon »

Catweazle wrote: 2021-05-25 20:37 Highest precision of voltage means nothing without correct timing.
What about the voltage to the timers?

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Re: Tim .......ing

Post by Catweazle »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-05-25 22:16
Catweazle wrote: 2021-05-25 20:37 Highest precision of voltage means nothing without correct timing.
What about the voltage to the timers?

Ron The Mon
Not that critical, as compared to the reference voltage of the DAC, I should say. But others may have better knowledge than I do from my applied physics courses at the university, and being an "innocent bystander" to the electronics engineers in the development department. ;-)

In my world the oscillating frequency of the timer is usually not proportional to its voltage. This voltage just needs to be in the right range. The timer produces clock "ticks", which is a digital pulse. The steepness of the pulse's flanks should be more critical, than the absolute amplitude,. The time counter should be triggered by the flanks. If there's 'enough' voltage, the flanks should be well defined. The intrinsic precision of the clock appears more critical to me, than the precision of its supply voltage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, anybody. Always eager to learn!
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