Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-05-10 19:44 I suppose it is the same with sampling frequency?
192kHz to 48kHz or 44,1kHz?
Yes. The hardware in Källa can handle up to 192 kHz, but Protokoll is limited to and optimised for 44.1 kHz.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by sunbeamgls »

We're all agreed on here that source is most important.
So why is it that 90%, for the sake of argument, has been captured at the source in the last 20 years in 24/96 or 24/192 is considered more musical when it has been through many processes to become 16/44.1 or a wiggle pressed into a disc?
The outcome seems, on the surface, contradictory to source first?
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-10 20:14 Yes. The hardware in Källa can handle up to 192 kHz, but Protokoll is limited to and optimised for 44.1 kHz.
Perfect for Spotify HiFi?

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matss »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-10 19:30The hardware in Källa can handle 24 bits, but Protokoll is limited to and optimised for 16 bits.
lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-10 20:14Yes. The hardware in Källa can handle up to 192 kHz, but Protokoll is limited to and optimised for 44.1 kHz.
Isn’t it ironic that when we finally get around on how to make digital really musically engaging, we end up with the original red book CD standard? Maybe Philips and Sony wasn’t so far out with their original marketing claim - perfect sound forever. They just didn’t have a clue on how to implement it?
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by beck »

Keep that Thorens running PetterS. It can really play jazzzzzzzzzzz................. :-)

To be serious:

I hear it exactly as you do PetterS. I find your contribution here to be in line with my perception of the problems digitally reproduced music run into.

The problems that analog recorded music run into on it’s way to our ears are attacking the musical signal from the outside giving it some bruises but keeping the core timing relations intact.

The problems that digitally recorded music run into are attacking the musical signal from the inside making cracks in the musical core thereby easily loosing the magic we all want to hear.

Listening to your Qobuz/vinyl comparison explains it better than my words. :-)
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

beck wrote: 2021-05-11 07:21 Keep that Thorens running PetterS. It can really play jazzzzzzzzzzz................. :-)

To be serious:

I hear it exactly as you do PetterS. I find your contribution here to be in line with my perception of the problems digitally reproduced music run into.

The problems that analog recorded music run into on it’s way to our ears are attacking the musical signal from the outside giving it some bruises but keeping the core timing relations intact.

The problems that digitally recorded music run into are attacking the musical signal from the inside making cracks in the musical core thereby easily loosing the magic we all want to hear.

Listening to your Qobuz/vinyl comparison explains it better than my words. :-)
Disregarding that this thread instantly devolved into the tired old "but it's digital" argument, I don't see how PetterS' example can be taken as representative of analog vs digital.

What we have here is Digital Product X (I can't tell from the video what is playing, nor see that PetterS stated it anywhere) compared against Analog Product Thorens (some model, dunno which one), playing what may or may not be the same mix/master/(recording?).

I too find the Thorens clip to be better, but isn't the simplest explanation that the Thorens is simply better than X at reproducing music, not that one is digital and one is analog? I certainly wouldn't want to draw that conclusion from two suboptimal (handheld, (probably) volume normalized, (probably) lossily encoded) digital recordings, at least..
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Reading many posts on here (and other audio forums about this one) it would be easy to assume that Hakai users weren't happy with the quality of the music they're hearing. The nature of the hobby leads to people experimenting. I use a Hakai or other streamer daily with great happiness.

The clips of the new Linn streamer and the reviews by members of the forum are impressive. I saw, "unknown artist" on the display in the attached link and concluded the streamer was using a NAS. My knowledge of streaming services is limited but I assume basic metadata errors are rare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ySPeVyvWhI
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matthias »

teatime wrote: 2021-05-11 16:33 Disregarding that this thread instantly devolved into the tired old "but it's digital" argument, I don't see how PetterS' example can be taken as representative of analog vs digital.

What we have here is Digital Product X (I can't tell from the video what is playing, nor see that PetterS stated it anywhere) compared against Analog Product Thorens (some model, dunno which one), playing what may or may not be the same mix/master/(recording?).

I too find the Thorens clip to be better, but isn't the simplest explanation that the Thorens is simply better than X at reproducing music, not that one is digital and one is analog?
+1
I think a valid comparison will be Spotify HiFi plus musical Apple device plus Källa vs. LP12 plus Lejonklou phonopre in the same price range.
Let us wait and hear...

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by PetterS »

matthias wrote: 2021-05-11 17:25
teatime wrote: 2021-05-11 16:33 Disregarding that this thread instantly devolved into the tired old "but it's digital" argument, I don't see how PetterS' example can be taken as representative of analog vs digital.

What we have here is Digital Product X (I can't tell from the video what is playing, nor see that PetterS stated it anywhere) compared against Analog Product Thorens (some model, dunno which one), playing what may or may not be the same mix/master/(recording?).

I too find the Thorens clip to be better, but isn't the simplest explanation that the Thorens is simply better than X at reproducing music, not that one is digital and one is analog?
+1
I think a valid comparison will be Spotify HiFi plus musical Apple device plus Källa vs. LP12 plus Lejonklou phonopre in the same price range.
Let us wait and hear...

Matt
Totally agree with you Matt, that would be a valid comparison.

Teatime, I would more than welcome anyone that has a streaming setup to check if they do experiance the same flaws in the Ellington recording. I do certainly have the same flaws on both the Qobuz and Spotify version of the same recording, disjointed and unpleasant. Since this is not about soundstage or compression effects, something else is in play. I did choose the Qobuz version since it was marked "CD-quality".

Regarding the Korean clip above, it is very impressive in the same way as all my visits listening to the LINN dealer's digital setups the last decade have impressed me. But personally, I find that something essential is missing, at least in jazz and classic music. Since the DSM Organik is way out of the price range I would like to spend on a device instead of music itself, I guess my hope has to focus on Källa.

It was first when I encountered the Boazu that I felt a childish joy in exploring music again.
Btw, my setup is now updated in the signature below.

Edit: If you would like to listen on Qobuz, search for "dukes big 4" on releases. Track Cotton Tail. Same search on Spotify.
Last edited by PetterS on 2021-05-11 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matthias »

PetterS wrote: 2021-05-11 18:08 Since the DSM Organik is way out of the price range I would like to spend on a device instead of music itself, I guess my hope has to focus on Källa.
+1
When Källa is released, please listen to your Ellington track with Källa and let us know what you think.
I am very curious :-)

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by ThomasOK »

teatime wrote: 2021-05-11 16:33
beck wrote: 2021-05-11 07:21 Keep that Thorens running PetterS. It can really play jazzzzzzzzzzz................. :-)

To be serious:

I hear it exactly as you do PetterS. I find your contribution here to be in line with my perception of the problems digitally reproduced music run into.

The problems that analog recorded music run into on it’s way to our ears are attacking the musical signal from the outside giving it some bruises but keeping the core timing relations intact.

The problems that digitally recorded music run into are attacking the musical signal from the inside making cracks in the musical core thereby easily loosing the magic we all want to hear.

Listening to your Qobuz/vinyl comparison explains it better than my words. :-)
Disregarding that this thread instantly devolved into the tired old "but it's digital" argument, I don't see how PetterS' example can be taken as representative of analog vs digital.

What we have here is Digital Product X (I can't tell from the video what is playing, nor see that PetterS stated it anywhere) compared against Analog Product Thorens (some model, dunno which one), playing what may or may not be the same mix/master/(recording?).

I too find the Thorens clip to be better, but isn't the simplest explanation that the Thorens is simply better than X at reproducing music, not that one is digital and one is analog? I certainly wouldn't want to draw that conclusion from two suboptimal (handheld, (probably) volume normalized, (probably) lossily encoded) digital recordings, at least..
True, we only know what PetterS' Primare streaming setup sounds like compared to his mid-level Thorens turntable. But there is certainly no question that the Thorens plays jazz and the Qobuz stream doesn't. The difference in timing and movement isn't the least bit subtle. Seeing as we have the KDSM with Organik and Källa both coming out with claims to bring an analog level of engagement to digital streams, using much different methods and at much different prices, we appear to be in very interesting times. It will be intriguing to hear.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

PetterS wrote: 2021-05-11 18:08 Teatime, I would more than welcome anyone that has a streaming setup to check if they do experiance the same flaws in the Ellington recording. I do certainly have the same flaws on both the Qobuz and Spotify version of the same recording, disjointed and unpleasant. Since this is not about soundstage or compression effects, something else is in play. I did choose the Qobuz version since it was marked "CD-quality".
[...]
Edit: If you would like to listen on Qobuz, search for "dukes big 4" on releases. Track Cotton Tail. Same search on Spotify.
I agree with you. I tried it on Qobuz. It's.. bad. Really bad. Disjointed barely begins to cover it. The musicians sound like they can't hear each other. For a live recording it is curiously "dampened". It sounds a bit like someone did a heavy noise cancellation pass on it. I was really surprised to notice that the recording was as late as 1973. It shouldn't need cleanup. (I suspect I would prefer they never did cleanup during remaster, it always seems to hurt more than it helps.) A very early bad digital transfer perhaps? Do you feel this is representative of jazz on Qobuz?

I've only had had Qobuz for a few weeks (still in my free month) after switching from Tidal (due to their increased reliance on MQA), and only really play jazz when home alone, and on those occasions, I tend to go for vinyl.

I briefly tried a recording I know - Art Blakey's Mosiac - on Qobuz. It sounded far better. Like jazz. (It turned out to be a 192/24 recording, but I doubt that's the reason). Is it close to the original vinyl? Well.. no. It's not even close. But it's not as obviously bad as that Ellington recording, I think.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matthias »

PetterS wrote: 2021-05-11 18:08 Edit: If you would like to listen on Qobuz, search for "dukes big 4" on releases. Track Cotton Tail. Same search on Spotify.
There are two versions on Qobuz with different covers:
One from 1. January 1974 by Pablo
One from 1. January 2000 by CoolNote

The Pablo version seems to be much better and more similar to the vinyl.

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Last edited by matthias on 2021-05-12 08:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by FairPlayMotty »

The XRCD version sounds very good.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by PetterS »

ThomasOK, the setup with my "midrange" Thorens is even more challenging. I just moved my old LINN equipment to have a better setup at work. To be able to play vinyl at home, I bought the cheapest phono stage at hand, a Cambridge Audio which now is on its third day. In time I will upgrade since I have realised I'm once again hooked on vinyl. But the Thorens is a keeper.

Matt, I did use the black cover "Cotton Tail (Album Version) since it hade the same cover as my vinyl (Pablo Records). I will check the other one tomorrow.

Teatime, it's actually a relief to hear it sounds equally horrible on your equipment. I'm also in my Qobuz-free month evaluating. So far Spotify has generally had an edge in musicality. However, on some tracks that my sons played from the 2000s, Spotify sounded horrendous, and slightly better on Qobuz. It seems that tracks from the "loudness war" are particurarly bad on Spotify. Luckily my choice of music is not affected.

Since I just got my old Thorens going again, I will explore more vinyls after cleaning them. The real advantage with streaming is of course to listen and enjoy music recorded today, performed by contemporary artists. But, since performances generally have become more "streamlined", IMHO, the real challenge for a streaming service and a streaming device, is to handle jazz- and classical music recorded in the days when everything literally was on the move in performances and precise ensemble wasn't top priority. It won't help with Källa or Organik if the streaming services are providing flawed recordings. Maybe we just have to accept how it was back in the days. Sometimes you arrived at home with a vinyl that sounded really bad on the inner tracks, which was especially painful in the klimax of a Mahler symphony.

But before investing big in streaming, I have to be convinced that a digital setup will be able to communicate the inner soul of music in the way the old tt:s can.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

FWIW, the Pablo version (black cover) is the one I listened to too (not sure how I convinced myself it was a concert album, I must have misread). Unfortunately, I don't have the vinyl. It would have been interesting to compare them.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by sunbeamgls »

My ramblings after listen to KDSM/3

http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by Lego »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2021-05-15 12:02 My ramblings after listen to KDSM/3

http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1
Nice article, really enjoyed it .Nothing has really changed at Linn.As it's always been they just want to build the best that's out there.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2021-05-15 12:02 My ramblings after listen to KDSM/3

http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1
Thanks, an enjoyable and informative read (I had no idea you could do that "full range pass through" with Exakt boxes), but I'm confused by one thing.. did you actually not listen to the Organik DAC?

Unless I misread you, both configurations use your Akurate Exaktbox (Katalyst) DACs. Why not take a chance to hear the Organik DAC (NGKDSM -> Tundra -> Twenty.26)? I think you lost out on the main event. (Or I'm just not reading you right.)
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by anthony »

teatime wrote: 2021-05-15 16:16
sunbeamgls wrote: 2021-05-15 12:02 My ramblings after listen to KDSM/3

http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1
Thanks, an enjoyable and informative read (I had no idea you could do that "full range pass through" with Exakt boxes), but I'm confused by one thing.. did you actually not listen to the Organik DAC?

Unless I misread you, both configurations use your Akurate Exaktbox (Katalyst) DACs. Why not take a chance to hear the Organik DAC (NGKDSM -> Tundra -> Twenty.26)? I think you lost out on the main event. (Or I'm just not reading you right.)
Neil tried passive using organik and preferred it.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by sunbeamgls »

anthony wrote: 2021-05-15 17:42
teatime wrote: 2021-05-15 16:16
sunbeamgls wrote: 2021-05-15 12:02 My ramblings after listen to KDSM/3

http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.com/2 ... n.html?m=1
Thanks, an enjoyable and informative read (I had no idea you could do that "full range pass through" with Exakt boxes), but I'm confused by one thing.. did you actually not listen to the Organik DAC?

Unless I misread you, both configurations use your Akurate Exaktbox (Katalyst) DACs. Why not take a chance to hear the Organik DAC (NGKDSM -> Tundra -> Twenty.26)? I think you lost out on the main event. (Or I'm just not reading you right.)
Neil tried passive using organik and preferred it.
Correct Anthony
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2021-05-15 18:04
anthony wrote: 2021-05-15 17:42
Neil tried passive using organik and preferred it.
Correct Anthony
Right, I see it now. The section called "NEXT GENERATION KLIMAX DSM AS A SYSTEM HUB IN A MORE TRADITIONAL SYSTEM" compares two different passive configurations - one of which uses the full NGKDSM. I got a bit distracted by the clever wiring. I should have paid better attention. :D
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by sunbeamgls »

You've spotted an error in that subtitle there, thanks teatime. I have corrected it.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by ThomasOK »

Don't feel bad teatime. Even with the updated title I found that section a bit confusing as to whether the KDSM with Organik was used without Exakt. I think it is because the explanation of using the Exaktbox to go full range to the speakers didn't say this was referring to how the setup was used only with the Akurate Exaktbox and not the KDSM Organik as well. The conclusion lets you know that, and the title of the section now says it as well, but it is still a little confusing.

The writeup was very nice and it is interesting to see the experience as both a hub and a streamer/DAC/preamp. I will be interested to see how it sounds and how much interest this expensive a product generates for Linn.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by David Neel »

As always, a good write-up.

I also enjoyed the car vs hifi cost comparison. I always knew that running new and interesting cars was expensive, but... I'm now feeling quite smug that my everyday car has running costs greater than my Kandid, but not by too much. If I add in the spend on vinyl, it gets rather closer. :) And I know which would be first in line for a downgrade if circumstances required...
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