Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

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Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

Ok, so I've finally heard it. I was at Tonläget Hifi today, for a tuneup of my LP12. I got to hear the Klimax 350 Exakt (Katalyst) system with the new Klimax DSM Organik used as Exakt hub with a full spec LP12 connected via Exakt. It sounded great. Tight. Fluid. Tuneful. I would love to have this system at home, I thought.

Then of course, since I had the chance, I wanted to actually hear the Organik part of the new KDSM, so Anders wired up his latest speaker prototype (Klångedang Dingle) to a Klimax Twin and the new KDSM (same LP12 connected, on top of his new BORD shelf).

Conditions were hardly ideal, as I had a bit of a headache and my tinnitus was bothering me (a few hours in the car does that). The speakers are "not done yet" according to Anders, so the components were not glued down ("so if you hear a rattle.."). And yet, what came out of those speakers was the best recorded music I have ever heard.

We did a few A/B streaming comparisons with the old KDSM, but the difference was just too big to be interesting, so I just played a bunch of vinyl instead. I had over an hour to play with it and I kept expecting the magic to fade, but it just never did. I cannot recall the last time I was this blown away by a new Linn product. Maybe the Lingo, thirty years ago.

Perhaps my reaction came from too low expectations (non-ideal conditions, "it's just a new DAC", expecting it to sound great, but perhaps nothing more), in which case perhaps my above hyperbole lessens the experience for anyone reading this (sorry), but I came out of that demo completely convinced.

"From the LP12 to the CD12 on to the Klimax DS, Linn has a proud history of creating game-changing hi-fi products." - yeah, they set the bar right. And cleared it. I still don't see a product in this price range can manage to be "game-changing", but the new Klimax DSM Organik certainly is something very special. I know I want one. I don't know how, but I do.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by anthony »

I absolutely agree, one of the best improvements Linn ever made, certainly bigger than katalyst upgrade.
Did you prefer vinyl or streaming?
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matthias »

teatime wrote: 2021-05-08 01:31 I know I want one. I don't know how, but I do.
teatime,
thanks for sharing.
What did they play? Music from streaming services or NAS?
Do you know which (network) devices they used upstream to the KDSM?

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matthias »

I am just wondering why the new KDSM does sound so good.

When the signal in respect to the KDSM goes like this

Spotify/Qobuz > Streaming board > Organik DAC

then from a Source First POV the Organik DAC has only the third rank, comparable to a cartridge in a vinyl system.

So what is the mystery of the sound of the new KDSM?

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by PetterS »

Teatime, really interesting. I'm also curious about the streaming services used and the network setup, but also what music you did listen to. Older music first released on vinyl or digitally recorded music, or maybe both?
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matss »

matthias wrote: 2021-05-08 10:20 I am just wondering why the new KDSM does sound so good.

When the signal in respect to the KDSM goes like this

Spotify/Qobuz > Streaming board > Organik DAC

then from a Source First POV the Organik DAC has only the third rank, comparable to a cartridge in a vinyl system.

So what is the mystery of the sound of the new KDSM?

Matt
Errr, is this not very much up to how you choose to count?

Analog:
Master > potential D/A > cutter > laquer > father > mother > stamper > vinyl > cartridge

Digital streaming:
Master > potential A/D > inumerous network components during file transfer > streaming service > inumerous network components during file transfer > router > streaming board > DAC

Lossless digital transfer holds the clear advantage over analog that as long as the information is digital it can very easily be made bit perfect all along up to the final D/A convertion. Where as analog goes each and every step listed above can severely affect the end result in an analog chain. In this sence the DAC is the true source first - where the magic happens.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by Pediatrik »

teatime wrote: 2021-05-08 01:31 Ok, so I've finally heard it. I was at Tonläget Hifi today, for a tuneup of my LP12. I got to hear the Klimax 350 Exakt (Katalyst) system with the new Klimax DSM Organik used as Exakt hub with a full spec LP12 connected via Exakt. It sounded great. Tight. Fluid. Tuneful. I would love to have this system at home, I thought.

Then of course, since I had the chance, I wanted to actually hear the Organik part of the new KDSM, so Anders wired up his latest speaker prototype (Klångedang Dingle) to a Klimax Twin and the new KDSM (same LP12 connected, on top of his new BORD shelf).

Conditions were hardly ideal, as I had a bit of a headache and my tinnitus was bothering me (a few hours in the car does that). The speakers are "not done yet" according to Anders, so the components were not glued down ("so if you hear a rattle.."). And yet, what came out of those speakers was the best recorded music I have ever heard.

We did a few A/B streaming comparisons with the old KDSM, but the difference was just too big to be interesting, so I just played a bunch of vinyl instead. I had over an hour to play with it and I kept expecting the magic to fade, but it just never did. I cannot recall the last time I was this blown away by a new Linn product. Maybe the Lingo, thirty years ago.

Perhaps my reaction came from too low expectations (non-ideal conditions, "it's just a new DAC", expecting it to sound great, but perhaps nothing more), in which case perhaps my above hyperbole lessens the experience for anyone reading this (sorry), but I came out of that demo completely convinced.

"From the LP12 to the CD12 on to the Klimax DS, Linn has a proud history of creating game-changing hi-fi products." - yeah, they set the bar right. And cleared it. I still don't see a product in this price range can manage to be "game-changing", but the new Klimax DSM Organik certainly is something very special. I know I want one. I don't know how, but I do.
Great to hear your impressions Jens. Now I certainly will pull the trigger on the KExbox upgrade! I trust your ears as they were mine. Still remember how annoyed I was when we compared DS with LP12 in your apartment in Lund back in the days!
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by lejonklou »

matss wrote: 2021-05-08 17:05 In this sence the DAC is the true source first - where the magic happens.
A lot of members on this forum have plenty of experience with digital reproduction. Phrases like "lossless" and "The DAC is the source" is where most of us began. That the DAC is actually last and least important in the digital chain is something one arrives at after practical experiments.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by ThomasOK »

If lossless actually existed, there would be no improvement from the new Klimax Exakt Box vs. the old one as there is no Organik DAC in it. Yet everybody who has heard one claims there is a big improvement.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matss »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 20:00A lot of members on this forum have plenty of experience with digital reproduction. Phrases like "lossless" and "The DAC is the source" is where most of us began. That the DAC is actually last and least important in the digital chain is something one arrives at after practical experiments.
It is relatively easy to show digital information can be transfered and perserved bit perfect without loss. Of course I understand this digital stream in reality is voltage and current in an electronic system - very much an analog system and sensitive to everything surrounding it. But as digital information goes it will still be able to interpret the digital stream as bit perfect ones and zeros.

So to me the challenge begins in converting this bit perfect digital information into an analog signal, so that we as humans are able to interpret and react to the information. And that is done in the DAC, hopefully doing this knowing digital information in reality is something very analog - and sensitive.

By your way of thinking, where is source first in a digital replay chain - the ethernet connector or wifi receiver in the streamer, the router or somewhere else?
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-05-08 20:24 If lossless actually existed, there would be no improvement from the new Klimax Exakt Box vs. the old one as there is no Organik DAC in it. Yet everybody who has heard one claims there is a big improvement.
Not correct. Lossless refers to the digital data. Converting it to an analogue signal is never lossless and can therefore always be improved (theoretically).
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matthias »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-05-08 20:24 If lossless actually existed, there would be no improvement from the new Klimax Exakt Box vs. the old one as there is no Organik DAC in it. Yet everybody who has heard one claims there is a big improvement.
It is pretty clear that Linn improved BOTH the streaming board (which is btw complete in the digital domain) AND the DAC in the NGKDSM.

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

I almost feel a bit guilty driving the hype train, but I can only say what it felt like listening to it. It didn't feel like an incremental improvement, it felt fundamental. I have no idea how or why.

Amusingly, I mostly played vinyl through it, which also means streaming source and network setup is reasonably largely inconsequential (only Exakt links involved, no external servers, switches, routers, etc). We did very few direct comparisons with the old Katalyst DSM. In part because I quickly got more interested in just listening to music and in part because it was a bit cumbersome to switch and Anders needed to work on a few record players (including mine).

We did a few streaming comparisons (using Tidal - Qobuz wasn't wired up for the new player yet.), but the only one I managed to remember the name of was was Stumbling Down from the recent posthumous Tony Allen release There is no End. Neither of us had heard either song before but these were new tracks and undoubtedly all digitally recorded.

Left to myself I mostly played various old vinyl albums, most if not all probably originally analog recordings. Everything just felt great to listen to.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by lejonklou »

matss wrote: 2021-05-08 20:40 By your way of thinking, where is source first in a digital replay chain - the ethernet connector or wifi receiver in the streamer, the router or somewhere else?
You misunderstand, it's not a way I'm thinking. It's what you find if you 1) experiment, and 2) evaluate the results of your experiments with the Tune Method. What you will find is not something that fits into textbook theory.

I find that static data is relatively stable and exact. I say relatively, because there are some really strange things that can happen when storing still bit perfect musical data, but these effects are minor, so let's ignore them for the moment.

The source in a digital replay system is where the data starts moving. Adding a clock to the static data is where everything begins. Then every time you reclock (for instance when oversampling) that moving signal, you add a signature that will be heard after the conversion to analogue. The more manipulations you do in the digital domain to the moving data, the more signatures will be superimposed on one another. The fewer and gentler manipulations you make, the more true and lifelike the music will sound.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by lejonklou »

teatime wrote: 2021-05-08 21:18 I almost feel a bit guilty driving the hype train, but I can only say what it felt like listening to it. It didn't feel like an incremental improvement, it felt fundamental. I have no idea how or why.

Amusingly, I mostly played vinyl through it, which also means streaming source and network setup is reasonably largely inconsequential (only Exakt links involved, no external servers, switches, routers, etc). We did very few direct comparisons with the old Katalyst DSM. In part because I quickly got more interested in just listening to music and in part because it was a bit cumbersome to switch and Anders needed to work on a few record players (including mine).

We did a few streaming comparisons (using Tidal - Qobuz wasn't wired up for the new player yet.), but the only one I managed to remember the name of was was Stumbling Down from the recent posthumous Tony Allen release There is no End. Neither of us had heard either song before but these were new tracks and undoubtedly all digitally recorded.

Left to myself I mostly played various old vinyl albums, most if not all probably originally analog recordings. Everything just felt great to listen to.
I really look forward to comparing it to Källa.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by Catweazle »

matthias wrote: 2021-05-08 21:04 It is pretty clear that Linn improved BOTH the streaming board (which is btw complete in the digital domain) AND the DAC in the NGKDSM.
Let's not forget the clock. Without proper timing each and every DAC will produce a poor analog signal. It does not help to get the voltage correct, if the timing is wrong.
According to Linn, the clock in the DSx acts as a master to all Exakt components. Thus a better master clock might improve the precision of the ADC (Urika II), and the DAC.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 21:42 I find that static data is relatively stable and exact. I say relatively, because there are some really strange things that can happen when storing still bit perfect musical data, but these effects are minor, so let's ignore them for the moment.
lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 21:42 The source in a digital replay system is where the data starts moving. Adding a clock to the static data is where everything begins.
I found this very interesting. In which of these two categories do streaming/nas/network cabling/switches/routers/etc.. belong to? Data in these domains is certainly "moving", but it is not "clocked" (not in the sense that I take you to mean above).

If you mean that the clocked domain is the crucial one and the network is something that "has an effect, but minor", this view seems rather "text book" to me. In fact it's very closely aligned with Linn's much derided slogan ("The source is in the speaker" - about Exakt) which I recently was told was supposed to be interpreted as "the source is the part of the system where you start to lose information". (EDIT: .. which, yeah, is probably the initial up-sampling step rather than the to-analog conversion.)
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matthias »

Catweazle wrote: 2021-05-08 22:30 Let's not forget the clock.
Yes, Linn improved the ADC, the streaming circuits, the DAC and most certainly nearly all other things as well. The clock is a very important part of the architecture.

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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matss »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 21:42The source in a digital replay system is where the data starts moving. Adding a clock to the static data is where everything begins. Then every time you reclock (for instance when oversampling) that moving signal, you add a signature that will be heard after the conversion to analogue. The more manipulations you do in the digital domain to the moving data, the more signatures will be superimposed on one another. The fewer and gentler manipulations you make, the more true and lifelike the music will sound.
Thanks for sharing, I can relate to that. You have to understand what you are doing in each and every step through the process in order to maximize the result. And if not done properly faults will be carried over to the end result. If you’re not fully confident in what you’re doing, better keep it simple usually pays off. Keep up the good work and release more thrilling products in the future.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by lejonklou »

matss wrote: 2021-05-08 23:21 Thanks for sharing, I can relate to that. You have to understand what you are doing in each and every step through the process in order to maximize the result. And if not done properly faults will be carried over to the end result. If you’re not fully confident in what you’re doing, better keep it simple usually pays off. Keep up the good work and release more thrilling products in the future.
Matss, I'm sorry but I don't follow your reasoning here.

You asked me where I think source first is in a digital replay chain. I replied. And your answer is a sloppy attempt at an insult?

Sorry, but that's not up to the standards of this forum. If you have something of value you wish to add or dispute, please do so.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by lejonklou »

teatime wrote: 2021-05-08 22:37
lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 21:42 I find that static data is relatively stable and exact. I say relatively, because there are some really strange things that can happen when storing still bit perfect musical data, but these effects are minor, so let's ignore them for the moment.
lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 21:42 The source in a digital replay system is where the data starts moving. Adding a clock to the static data is where everything begins.
I found this very interesting. In which of these two categories do streaming/nas/network cabling/switches/routers/etc.. belong to? Data in these domains is certainly "moving", but it is not "clocked" (not in the sense that I take you to mean above).
These definitely belong in the moving and clocked category.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by teatime »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 23:48
teatime wrote: 2021-05-08 22:37
lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 21:42 I find that static data is relatively stable and exact. I say relatively, because there are some really strange things that can happen when storing still bit perfect musical data, but these effects are minor, so let's ignore them for the moment.
lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 21:42 The source in a digital replay system is where the data starts moving. Adding a clock to the static data is where everything begins.
I found this very interesting. In which of these two categories do streaming/nas/network cabling/switches/routers/etc.. belong to? Data in these domains is certainly "moving", but it is not "clocked" (not in the sense that I take you to mean above).
These definitely belong in the moving and clocked category.
Wow, I still don't get it. I understand that data being transferred is always clocked. This is fundamental to the transfer of digital information. But this is a different time domain from the audio processing. Do we need to worry about anything before the last time the data was "at rest"? (and if we do, how far back? and why?)

Surely, if a file is copied from one server to another, it is then at rest? In the same way, when a UDP packet is transferred from somewhere, via the network, and stored in a memory buffer in (for example) Källa, isn't it then "at rest"? It will stay in this memory buffer for an unspecified amount of time, until read (and evicted). So why is this not when time starts? The time the data reaches the buffer is unrelated to the time it is read from it. (It enters when the network manages to get it there, it leaves when it is needed. If it's not there in time, we just get data dropout (and probably silence) - these two time domains are not synced).

Once the data is being interpreted as audio data and transformed (up-sampling and all the other stuff that goes on) it makes perfect sense that time is absolutely critical. But before that? I don't understand.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by matss »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 23:45 You asked me where I think source first is in a digital replay chain. I replied. And your answer is a sloppy attempt at an insult?
No intention to insult. You must have misread my response, or I expressed myself in a sloppy way.

I usually start off with a simple clear idea. Then I wish to improve on initial results. Throwing complexity at a problem usually yields confusing results if you’re not fully aware of what exactly you are doing and their consequences. I believe many of today's digital systems suffer from this. Things changes and you don’t really understand why. If you lack perseverance to really get to the bottom with the challenges you face you are usually better off stepping back to the initial simpler idea. That’s what I do when I get confused.

Finding the true root cause to a behaviour is usually a really cumbersome process, but when found can help you to create the simplest solution possible yielding the best result. I understand digital systems have a lot going on and it can all affect the delicate recreation of the analogue signal within. Trying to keep digital interference to a minimum seems like a good strategy to me.

How many digital conversions are you down to using airplay in Källa? And how does sourcing files from NAS instead of streaming from a control point add digital complexity to the system? I’m at loss here. Sorry for OT, final paragraph should maybe be moved to another section.
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

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lejonklou wrote: 2021-05-08 22:09
teatime wrote: 2021-05-08 21:18 I almost feel a bit guilty driving the hype train, but I can only say what it felt like listening to it. It didn't feel like an incremental improvement, it felt fundamental. I have no idea how or why.

Amusingly, I mostly played vinyl through it, which also means streaming source and network setup is reasonably largely inconsequential (only Exakt links involved, no external servers, switches, routers, etc). We did very few direct comparisons with the old Katalyst DSM. In part because I quickly got more interested in just listening to music and in part because it was a bit cumbersome to switch and Anders needed to work on a few record players (including mine).

We did a few streaming comparisons (using Tidal - Qobuz wasn't wired up for the new player yet.), but the only one I managed to remember the name of was was Stumbling Down from the recent posthumous Tony Allen release There is no End. Neither of us had heard either song before but these were new tracks and undoubtedly all digitally recorded.

Left to myself I mostly played various old vinyl albums, most if not all probably originally analog recordings. Everything just felt great to listen to.
I really look forward to comparing it to Källa.
Dear Fredrik
I am really looking forward to Källa arriving! Could I ask if you think it might hold its own against the new Linn streamers?
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Re: Linn Klimax DSM Organik, impressions

Post by Tony Tune-age »

Fred11 wrote: 2021-05-09 09:06 Dear Fredrik
I am really looking forward to Källa arriving! Could I ask if you think it might hold its own against the new Linn streamers?
Fred
Just based on the performance record of Lejonklou products to date, it's very likely the Kalla will be sonically competitive with Linn streamers or any other streamer as well. And in time, it will be known for sure.

Cheers
Tony Tune-age
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