Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

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Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by springwood64 »

Slightly tongue in cheek question. However, I have a little data to back it up.

A kind forum member shared recordings they made of Sting's Fragile from a Klimax Radikal and Accurate Radikal.

I stored this on my NAS and both recordings are much more musical, atmospheric and emotionally engaging than the recording I can access via Qobuz.

So, in my very limited experience, for this song, an LP12 recorded source downloaded to the NAS is clearly better than the streamed source from Qobuz.

I have not heard this sort of difference between the 'hires' versions on Qobuz vs the CD versions. In fact I now tend to avoid the 'hires' versions on Qobuz because many times I have found the CD versions more enjoyable.

I also found Radio Paradise (FLAC / CD quality) more often delights me than Qobuz.

Anyone else finding similar?

What is the best strategy for reliable high quality digital sources?

I don't think I will renew my Qobuz hi res account - it just doesn't seem worth it.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by beck »

Short answer: yes! :-)
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by Charlie1 »

Interesting question. Some thoughts...

1.) I suppose we don't know to what extent the master tapes have degraded since '87 - assuming your friend used an original vinyl release. If they have degraded by a noticeable margin then, to my mind, source first tells us that an original vinyl release is now a superior source to the master tape.

2. ) Perhaps the equipment used for playing back the master tapes is not functioning as well as it did nearly 35 years ago.

3.) Which process does the most harm in the initial phase? If you rule out tape deg and make a digital copy on the same day you create the vinyl laquer, then which process does the most harm to the music? Again, just thinking source first here.

4.) What digital manipulation has been done to these modern files? I assume they have been remastered. Don't know what harm that does but I always seem to enjoy older versions on Spotify.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2021-04-16 09:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by matthias »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 09:03 I don't think I will renew my Qobuz hi res account - it just doesn't seem worth it.
Waiting for Spotify HiFi?

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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by beck »

I actually think that digital copy protection is the worst enemy.........
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by matthias »

beck wrote: 2021-04-16 09:58 I actually think that digital copy protection is the worst enemy.........
https://www.mattmontag.com/music/an-upd ... watermarks

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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by springwood64 »

matthias wrote: 2021-04-16 09:51
springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 09:03 I don't think I will renew my Qobuz hi res account - it just doesn't seem worth it.
Waiting for Spotify HiFi?

Matt
I will definitely give it a go.

Anyone else listening to Radio Paradise FLAC streams and comparing to other services? If I had to keep either Qobuz or RP, it would be a no-brainer: Radio Paradise is my main listening source for digital, and to my ears its quality is more reliable.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by springwood64 »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-16 09:50 Interesting question. Some thoughts...

1.) I suppose we don't know to what extent the master tapes have degraded since '87 - assuming your friend used an original vinyl release. If they have degraded by a noticeable margin then, to my mind, source first tells us that an original vinyl release is now a superior source to the master tape.

2. ) Perhaps the equipment used for playing back the master tapes is not functioning as well as it did nearly 35 years ago.

3.) Which process does the most harm in the initial phase? If you rule out tape deg and make a digital copy on the same day you create the vinyl laquer, then which process does the most harm to the music? Again, just thinking source first here.

4.) What digital manipulation has been done to these modern files? I assume they have been remastered. Don't know what harm that does but I always seem to enjoy older versions on Spotify.
Good points - there are quite a few factors at play.

I find it disappointing and sometimes frustrating that digital source quality seems so much less predictable than vinyl. In this respect, for me, digital falls quite a long way short of its promise.

It seems that the streaming hardware/software is being let down by the source files.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by anthony »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 10:25
matthias wrote: 2021-04-16 09:51
springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 09:03 I don't think I will renew my Qobuz hi res account - it just doesn't seem worth it.
Waiting for Spotify HiFi?

Matt
I will definitely give it a go.

Anyone else listening to Radio Paradise FLAC streams and comparing to other services? If I had to keep either Qobuz or RP, it would be a no-brainer: Radio Paradise is my main listening source for digital, and to my ears its quality is more reliable.
I enjoy radio paradise mellow, and soma fm, lush, its amazing how coming from San Francisco it can sound better than Qobuz.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by springwood64 »

beck wrote: 2021-04-16 09:58 I actually think that digital copy protection is the worst enemy.........
Is it possible to find out if a Qobuz file contains copy protection?
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by beck »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 12:51
beck wrote: I actually think that digital copy protection is the worst enemy.........
Is it possible to find out if a Qobuz file contains copy protection?
I think you have to ask Qobuz.........
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by springwood64 »

beck wrote: 2021-04-16 13:09
springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 12:51
beck wrote: I actually think that digital copy protection is the worst enemy.........
Is it possible to find out if a Qobuz file contains copy protection?
I think you have to ask Qobuz.........
After I posted this I thought exactly the same, and I have sent them a support request.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by springwood64 »

I have purchased a couple of Qobuz tracks so that I could download them on to my NAS, allowing me to compare them all playing from the NAS. I'll post clips next week.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by ThomasOK »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 10:29
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-16 09:50 Interesting question. Some thoughts...

1.) I suppose we don't know to what extent the master tapes have degraded since '87 - assuming your friend used an original vinyl release. If they have degraded by a noticeable margin then, to my mind, source first tells us that an original vinyl release is now a superior source to the master tape.

2. ) Perhaps the equipment used for playing back the master tapes is not functioning as well as it did nearly 35 years ago.

3.) Which process does the most harm in the initial phase? If you rule out tape deg and make a digital copy on the same day you create the vinyl laquer, then which process does the most harm to the music? Again, just thinking source first here.

4.) What digital manipulation has been done to these modern files? I assume they have been remastered. Don't know what harm that does but I always seem to enjoy older versions on Spotify.
Good points - there are quite a few factors at play.

I find it disappointing and sometimes frustrating that digital source quality seems so much less predictable than vinyl. In this respect, for me, digital falls quite a long way short of its promise.

It seems that the streaming hardware/software is being let down by the source files.
Charlie1 points out a few possible reasons. I feel that those are just the tip of the iceberg. The whole idea of digital was that it would be able to be transferred all over the place and remain intact. If you go from a measurement point of it might be true that you end up with the same bits on both ends. But if you go by musical quality it couldn't be farther from the truth. The evidence of our ears is that everything can have a negative effect on the musicality of a digital data stream. Not just the big things like the server, the switch, the router, the streamer, the DAC, etc. but the RAM modules used, the internal SSD, the SATA cables and their direction, the ports used on the switch, the PS powering it, etc., etc. This has all been well documented here in the LS-NAS and HAKAI sections. Without revealing too much about things I am not supposed to talk about, it has been found that a file can be transferred from one place to another, measure the same on both ends, yet sound quite different depending on what is going on in the chain of devices it passes through - even though they are all the same devices.

I have posted this elsewhere before but it bears repeating here. We don't know the origin of the files that are used on the streaming websites. Media companies (I hesitate to call them music companies considering their behavior, at least the big ones) do not in general give out master tapes. They are too valuable and too delicate, especially the analog ones, but it applies to the digital ones too. (They probably think that a copy of a digital tape is as good as the original anyway so why bother?) So in most cases the copies of the music on the streaming services are a few generations removed from the master tape. If we accept our evidence that transferring digital around causes musical losses then they are starting out with a lesser source than the LP was likely cut from. But that is just the start of it. Streaming companies have banks of servers all over the world to sustain different markets. Which server was the original file copied to? How many times was that transferred before it got to a server in another country? How many times has the server crashed and had to be restored from a backup? Things move fast in the computer world so server banks are replaced every few years to keep up with space needed for files and data transfer rates needed for customers. When a new server bank is installed all the data has to be moved off the old one and reinstalled on the new one. Backup systems get changed as well. The server you are getting your music off of can change as the company tries to balance loads. Also most big servers are huge RAID arrays that transfer data among multiple drives on an ongoing basis such that a single drive out of say a set of four can go down without loss to the data and new drive can then be slotted in it's place and it rebuilds the array. So now the music file is essentially spread in pieces across the drives and rearranged as needed.

Then there is also the copy protection that beck mentions. The media companies are very unhappy with the genie getting out of the bottle when Linn and other companies started streaming high-res digital files. They are and always have been overly fearsome of pirating of music (even more so movies - hence the abysmal HDMI system). So they do everything they can to try and stop this and have no compunction in watermarking files despite the musical losses involved. This is why the big uptake of MQA as it includes a DRM system (Digital Rights Management). No surprise the music companies were thrilled to get on board with this way to deliver "high-res" files to the listening public.

So with these almost countless transformations that the digital files go through to get to you via a streaming service, is it any surprise that a digital file recorded from an nicely specified LP12 direct onto some media and handed to you would be easily better? It would be a rather major surprise if it wasn't.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by springwood64 »

I am going to attempt to get my money back from Qobuz. In essence I feel I've been deceived, persuaded to pay a higher price for an inferior experience. I'm really glad I didn't spend £30K on a new streamer to discover this.

I'll keep you posted
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by springwood64 »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-16 16:50 The evidence of our ears is that everything can have a negative effect on the musicality of a digital data stream. Not just the big things like the server, the switch, the router, the streamer, the DAC, etc. but the RAM modules used, the internal SSD, the SATA cables and their direction, the ports used on the switch, the PS powering it, etc., etc. This has all been well documented here in the LS-NAS and HAKAI sections.
Yes - I've explored some of this directly, but without any understanding of the mechanisms involved.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-16 16:50 Without revealing too much about things I am not supposed to talk about, it has been found that a file can be transferred from one place to another, measure the same on both ends, yet sound quite different depending on what is going on in the chain of devices it passes through - even though they are all the same devices.
This intrigues me. Do you mean that you end up with exactly the same collection of 1's and 0's but they sound different having been through different paths? Or are they measured in some other way?
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-16 16:50 I have posted this elsewhere before but it bears repeating here. We don't know the origin of the files that are used on the streaming websites.
This is a very interesting point. The marketing of Qobuz states "Rediscover your favorite artists with an unparalleled richness and quality of sound. "

They say nothing to back this up. I can't find an explanation of how 'hi res' is higher quality beyond the encoding parameters.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by Discodave »

Brilliant insight Tom. Saved to reference for the future!!
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by Charlie1 »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 17:22
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-16 16:50 Without revealing too much about things I am not supposed to talk about, it has been found that a file can be transferred from one place to another, measure the same on both ends, yet sound quite different depending on what is going on in the chain of devices it passes through - even though they are all the same devices.
This intrigues me. Do you mean that you end up with exactly the same collection of 1's and 0's but they sound different having been through different paths? Or are they measured in some other way?
Yes, surely 'something' about the file has changed, even if its just the accompanying metadata? I get how real-time streamed data can go wrong but not file copies with a checksum. Are there any current theories on this?
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by ThomasOK »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-16 18:19
springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-16 17:22
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-16 16:50 Without revealing too much about things I am not supposed to talk about, it has been found that a file can be transferred from one place to another, measure the same on both ends, yet sound quite different depending on what is going on in the chain of devices it passes through - even though they are all the same devices.
This intrigues me. Do you mean that you end up with exactly the same collection of 1's and 0's but they sound different having been through different paths? Or are they measured in some other way?
Yes, surely 'something' about the file has changed, even if its just the accompanying metadata? I get how real-time streamed data can go wrong but not file copies with a checksum. Are there any current theories on this?
Yes, the 1s and 0s are all the same, some like to call the process "lossless" because of this, but the music is changed. It appears at this point that we just don't know enough about all the factors involved in the music recreated at the end of the chain to measure some of the important things involved. (Not that we have ever ben close to measuring what is important in making something musical. It still always requires ears to sort things out.)
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by teatime »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-16 19:53 Yes, the 1s and 0s are all the same [...] but the music is changed.
I've seen this claim a few times over the years on this forum, and I never know quite how to respond, so I usually don't.

Yes, there are plenty of known problems in the digital domain. There are also strong indications of less understood phenomena that appear to influence the musical performance of digital music reproduction systems. I can, with various amounts of disbelief trust that cables, switches, cable direction, hard drives, memory modules, etc etc can influence the results - these are all complex devices with electromagnetic and mechanical properties that one can at least not dismiss offhand as unimportant to the end result.

But there is a very important difference between digital information in the process of being converted to sound in real time (timing is critical and any electro-mechanical influence might be relevant) and digital data just being perfectly copied in storage (timing is irrelevant. the data just is, and can be verified to be unaltered).

And what you are talking about here is the latter, and, to me, what you are saying isn't too far off from claiming that the meaning of words are influenced by how often their letters have been copied.

Your description of (digital) backup copies mixed with discussions of the all too real problems with (analog) master tape generations makes me think you believe them to have similar problems, and yet there is very little to suggest they do.

Data isn't music. Music is a mental process. You are very much involved in it and your expectations will influence your experience. And just like people convinced that a difference is impossible, will often not hear it, people who expect there to be, often do.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-16 19:53Yes, the 1s and 0s are all the same, some like to call the process "lossless" because of this, but the music is changed. It appears at this point that we just don't know enough about all the factors involved in the music recreated at the end of the chain to measure some of the important things involved. (Not that we have ever ben close to measuring what is important in making something musical. It still always requires ears to sort things out.)
When comparing copies, I suppose if you copy a file to a different machine then all sorts of factors are at play so you'd have to copy it to the same machine but then it will occupy different space, perhaps with increased fragmentation. But if that was the underlying issue here then you'd expect it to be 50/50 as to whether it's better or worse, whereas it sounds that the music is getting worse each time the file is copied. There must be folks here that understand these things in more depth...
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by Charlie1 »

teatime wrote: 2021-04-16 22:42Data isn't music. Music is a mental process. You are very much involved in it and your expectations will influence your experience. And just like people convinced that a difference is impossible, will often not hear it, people who expect there to be, often do.
I trust Thomas' and Fredrik's ears more than I trust our ability to know all the science at play. The same criticisms levelled at the idea of switches and network cables making a difference (and still are) and yet most of us have heard very real improvements using the same recommended products. I'm sure it will come out in the wash, as we say. Baffling though. Almost sounds like quantum physics in terms of strangeness. Maybe they are influencing the result by observing the file transfer!! -- we need to look away and then the music will be unaffected :D
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2021-04-17 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by John »

I would guess you’re listening to two different masters.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by Spannko »

Just thinking out aloud here. Does anybody know if a check-sum includes every single byte of data within a container, or does it only include a central body of data, with the remaining data thought to be unimportant? This may explain why data with identical check-sums can sound different.
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Re: Digital Sources: Is the LP the best digital source?

Post by teatime »

Spannko wrote: 2021-04-16 23:38 Just thinking out aloud here. Does anybody know if a check-sum includes every single byte of data within a container, or does it only include a central body of data, with the remaining data thought to be unimportant? This may explain why data with identical check-sums can sound different.
It depends on what kind of checksum and system we're talking about, but they are generally quite dependable. It's irrelevant anyway, as no one is suggesting that the "1s and 0s" change. If they did, modern computer systems flat out wouldn't be possible. And they are, so...

Even if spurious bit flips are possible and do occur, it is extremely rare and let's say it happened to a file as it was being read and on its way to become music. One byte out of several million that makes up a FLAC file. Would we notice? Could it create the odd blip? Possibly, I guess (has anyone heard any?) but how could it interfere with the flow of music for a longer period of time? I think we can safely assume that the data is intact.
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