LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

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LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

I'm looking to upgrade my Benz Wood cartridge and stay within the Benz line (running it on an Ittok LVII arm). Unfortunately all of the higher end Benz cartridges weigh between 10.6g and 16g- too heavy for any of the Linn arms (they seem to be specified for cartridges weighing a maximum of 9g). Does anybody make a counterweight that works well with the LP12 and Linn arms that allows for effective use of heavier cartridges on the LP12?
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Ianw »

Check with your dealer because Linn make a heavier counterweight for Ekos.

Also, some of Linn headshells are quite small so worthwhile checking it will fit.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by ThomasOK »

The Ittok LVII has one of the bigger headshells on Linn arms and should not be a problem for the big Benz cartridges (nor Koetsus or big Dynavectors). Linn do make a heavy counterweight for the Ekos SE but the Ittok has the same size counterweight stub so it will work. Strangely enough the heavy counterweight part number is EK SE HEAVY CW. It runs about $200US.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

Thanks Thomas.

The 3 Benz Micro cartridges I'm looking at are the Gullwing SLR (12.2g), Ruby Z (10.2g) and LP-S (16g).

If I purchase that heavier counterweight that you mentioned (EK SE HEAVY CW) would I be able run any of those 3? Would the counterweight be able to sit in the right place on the arm (as close to the arm's pivot point as possible as I understand it)? Are any of those cartridges just too massive for the Ittok LVII to work properly? Sorry for all of the questions - just want to making sure I'm not losing anything.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by ThomasOK »

I have a customer using it with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and it works quite well. That is 9.2 grams and the counterweight is so close to the pivot I wouldn't want it any closer. I think it should work fine and will note that it is not always agreed that as close to the pivot as possible is optimum. Relatively close to the pivot, however, does seem to be a good idea. The other consideration is how good does the counterweight make the arm sound and it is here that the Linn heavy counterweight would be your only good choice. Obviously it will end up different distances from the pivot with those three cartridges, but it will still be much closer than the stock weight.

If you don't want it to sound too good I have a demo sKale I could sell you at a good price. I tried it for the Koetsu customer above before Linn made their own heavy weight. He made me immediately take it off since it "makes the violins sound like they have steel strings". When Linn brought out their heavy weight I went back out to his place and fitted it and we both found an immediate musical improvement. I walked out with cash in my pocket. I also compared the sKale in the store to the standard Linn counterweight and a customer standing in the door, who had no idea what I was comparing, said the Linn counterweight was significantly better, a conclusion I had also reached.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

Thanks Thomas.

Here are the weight and compliance figures for each cartridge:

Gullwing SLR (12g, 15cu)
Ruby Z (10.6g, 15cu)
LP-S (16g, 15cu)

Any of the above that you'd stay away from using either the stock or heavy counterweight on an Ittok LVII? Does the heavier Linn counterweight change the sound or dynamics in your experience?


ThomasOK wrote: 2021-03-20 22:31 I have a customer using it with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and it works quite well. That is 9.2 grams and the counterweight is so close to the pivot I wouldn't want it any closer. I think it should work fine and will note that it is not always agreed that as close to the pivot as possible is optimum. Relatively close to the pivot, however, does seem to be a good idea. The other consideration is how good does the counterweight make the arm sound and it is here that the Linn heavy counterweight would be your only good choice. Obviously it will end up different distances from the pivot with those three cartridges, but it will still be much closer than the stock weight.

If you don't want it to sound too good I have a demo sKale I could sell you at a good price. I tried it for the Koetsu customer above before Linn made their own heavy weight. He made me immediately take it off since it "makes the violins sound like they have steel strings". When Linn brought out their heavy weight I went back out to his place and fitted it and we both found an immediate musical improvement. I walked out with cash in my pocket. I also compared the sKale in the store to the standard Linn counterweight and a customer standing in the door, who had no idea what I was comparing, said the Linn counterweight was significantly better, a conclusion I had also reached.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by ThomasOK »

I would recommend the heavy weight with any of them, although I don't know how far back it will end up with the LP-S. But it would certainly be better with the LP-S than the standard counterweight, as well as with the others. I also don't know where the resonant frequency will end up with them on the Ittok as I don't think there are any figures for effective mass on an Ittok with a heavy counterweight. The heavier counterweight improves the musical perfromance with a heavy cartridge, such as the Koetsu I mentioned. I would suspect this isn't so much the heavy weight changing the sound as it putting the arm/cartridge resonance more in the optimal range.

Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-03-21 15:42 Thanks Thomas.

Here are the weight and compliance figures for each cartridge:

Gullwing SLR (12g, 15cu)
Ruby Z (10.6g, 15cu)
LP-S (16g, 15cu)

Any of the above that you'd stay away from using either the stock or heavy counterweight on an Ittok LVII? Does the heavier Linn counterweight change the sound or dynamics in your experience?


ThomasOK wrote: 2021-03-20 22:31 I have a customer using it with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and it works quite well. That is 9.2 grams and the counterweight is so close to the pivot I wouldn't want it any closer. I think it should work fine and will note that it is not always agreed that as close to the pivot as possible is optimum. Relatively close to the pivot, however, does seem to be a good idea. The other consideration is how good does the counterweight make the arm sound and it is here that the Linn heavy counterweight would be your only good choice. Obviously it will end up different distances from the pivot with those three cartridges, but it will still be much closer than the stock weight.

If you don't want it to sound too good I have a demo sKale I could sell you at a good price. I tried it for the Koetsu customer above before Linn made their own heavy weight. He made me immediately take it off since it "makes the violins sound like they have steel strings". When Linn brought out their heavy weight I went back out to his place and fitted it and we both found an immediate musical improvement. I walked out with cash in my pocket. I also compared the sKale in the store to the standard Linn counterweight and a customer standing in the door, who had no idea what I was comparing, said the Linn counterweight was significantly better, a conclusion I had also reached.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

Hey Thomas,

Thanks for your help and sorry for my delay in replying. I guess I'm concerned that with the LP-S the counterweight would end up too far back on the arm, and also that the resonant frequency will be off. Would those not be an issue with the Ruby Z? Am I being paranoid?

Also, I don't know whether or not the sub chassis affects the performance of the counterweight, but I'm running a Cirkus bearing and sub chassis.
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-03-23 17:17 I would recommend the heavy weight with any of them, although I don't know how far back it will end up with the LP-S. But it would certainly be better with the LP-S than the standard counterweight, as well as with the others. I also don't know where the resonant frequency will end up with them on the Ittok as I don't think there are any figures for effective mass on an Ittok with a heavy counterweight. The heavier counterweight improves the musical perfromance with a heavy cartridge, such as the Koetsu I mentioned. I would suspect this isn't so much the heavy weight changing the sound as it putting the arm/cartridge resonance more in the optimal range.

Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-03-21 15:42 Thanks Thomas.

Here are the weight and compliance figures for each cartridge:

Gullwing SLR (12g, 15cu)
Ruby Z (10.6g, 15cu)
LP-S (16g, 15cu)

Any of the above that you'd stay away from using either the stock or heavy counterweight on an Ittok LVII? Does the heavier Linn counterweight change the sound or dynamics in your experience?


ThomasOK wrote: 2021-03-20 22:31 I have a customer using it with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and it works quite well. That is 9.2 grams and the counterweight is so close to the pivot I wouldn't want it any closer. I think it should work fine and will note that it is not always agreed that as close to the pivot as possible is optimum. Relatively close to the pivot, however, does seem to be a good idea. The other consideration is how good does the counterweight make the arm sound and it is here that the Linn heavy counterweight would be your only good choice. Obviously it will end up different distances from the pivot with those three cartridges, but it will still be much closer than the stock weight.

If you don't want it to sound too good I have a demo sKale I could sell you at a good price. I tried it for the Koetsu customer above before Linn made their own heavy weight. He made me immediately take it off since it "makes the violins sound like they have steel strings". When Linn brought out their heavy weight I went back out to his place and fitted it and we both found an immediate musical improvement. I walked out with cash in my pocket. I also compared the sKale in the store to the standard Linn counterweight and a customer standing in the door, who had no idea what I was comparing, said the Linn counterweight was significantly better, a conclusion I had also reached.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by David Neel »

Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-03-31 04:12 I'm running a Cirkus bearing and sub chassis.
What is the full spec of your LP12?

Rather than ask what counterweight you need to complement a new and very expensive cartridge, I would suggest that you re-frame your question as: "how do I spend my available budget to achieve the maximum musical benefit?"

Then you would start a completely different discussion.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by ThomasOK »

I'm with David Neel on this. While I expect that the heavy weight would be just fine with any of the cartridges, it is definitely true that the cartridge is musically the least important part of the turntable system. In order of musical importance the items in a turntable break down like this:

1) Main bearing, in your case Cirkus, Karousel is a big improvement
2) Motor and controller, a Radikal being the best, Lingo 4 second
3) Sub chassis, Keel best, Kore very good and works with more arms
4) Tonearm, among Linn arms the order would be Ekos SE/1, Ekos SE, Ekos 2, Ekos, Ittok LVIII mk2, Ittok LVIII, Ittok LVII (with Akito 3 about a tie)
5) Cartridge

So there are certainly better places to upgrade your LP12.
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Heavier Upgrades

Post by Ron The Mon »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-03-31 17:20 ...there are certainly better places to upgrade your LP12.
Albert,
I third bypassing you upgrading your Benz phono cartridge.

I could pass on my experience with Benz cartridges and denigrate them. However, it is far better to be positive and share my experience with source-first.

First of all, where do you live? It sounds like USA. If so, contact Tom O'Keefe and take it from there.

Regardless, if you like the lameness mediocrity of your current Benz, you will love the musicality of a Karousel bearing.

If you "like" your current LP12, you will love a Lingo4 or Radikal. I moved from a Valhalla to a Radikal. The Radikal is RADICAL! My LP12 with Radikal, Basik tonearm, and Audio Technica AT-VM95C sounds far better than an LP12/Kore/Lingo/Krystal. It isn't even close.

Any Ekos sounds much better than any Ittok. Your Ittok with a Keel or Kore would outperform any Benz spendation.

The bottom line is any funds put toward a more expensive Benz phono cartridge is throwing money away. Buying a heavy counterweight is a worse expenditure. Purchasing an SUT (step up transformer) is the most God-aweful waste of money I can think of.

You need to find a good dealer.

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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

Thanks for everyone's input thus far.

My LP12 spec is as follows:

Cirkus bearing and subchassis, Lingo 2, Ittok LVII, Trampolin. I'm using a Benz Wood SH (high output) cartridge.

I had a chance to listen blind to a couple of Majik LP12s side by side at a very accommodating dealer for a few hours with a number of records I know well. One was equipped with the Cirkus bearing and the other with the Karousel. There was an almost fundamental difference in sound and while the Karousel did clean up the treble and sounded faster, overall I found the LP12 with the Cirkus bearing more engaging which I did not expect after reading all of the positive feedback about the Karousel. Perhaps I would have felt differently with my LP12 in my own system.

I also was able to listen to a Klimax LP12 with Karousel at the same dealer but unfortunately the amp in the Kimax LP12 room operated using some sort of DSP room correction so it was tough to make a judgement.

I'm still interested in the Lingo 4, Radikal, Kore, Keel and Ekos SE, but I'm not sure how to audition them without a Karousel in a system more akin to mine (my CJ tube electronics vs the dealer's Naim electronics).

I like the sound of my system now, but figured a cartridge upgrade within the same family would keep things in the same zone of sound yet improve them.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by tokenbrit »

Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-04-01 00:47 I like the sound of my system now, but figured a cartridge upgrade within the same family would keep things in the same zone of sound yet improve them.
Just my 2 cents... I'd say it depends on the age & wear of your cartridge: hierarchy suggests Lingo or Radikal before Kore or Keel before upgrading to an Ekos from your Ittok - they're all 'same family' upgrades of respective Linn components that you have, so should 'keep things in the same zone of sound yet improve them'.
The cartridge is down the list so would be less of a consideration unless it needs replacing... even then, a cheaper cart with a power supply, subchassis, or arm upgrade would most likely yield musical benefits over just upgrading the cart (& counterweight).
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Fair Auditions

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Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-04-01 00:47 I'm still interested in the Lingo 4, Radikal, Kore, Keel and Ekos SE, but I'm not sure how to audition them without a Karousel in a system more akin to mine (my CJ tube electronics vs the dealer's Naim electronics).
Albert,
How did you audition and compare all the Benz models to each other?

I get the impression you haven't. Did you compare your Benz SH directly to your prior cartridge before purchasing? You seem willing to spend a lot of money on a phono cartridge, counterweight, and MC phono stage (or SUT) without auditioning. The phono cartridge will wear out and then you're even further invested in sticking with a Benz. You are also assuming the more expensive Benz models sound better. Look what happened when you assumed a Karousel would sound better?

I have not read of a single person unhappy with upgrading, from your level of LP12, to any of the five Linn products you listed above. At some point you are going to have to take a leap of faith. I'd suggest doing that with an item that will hold its' value more than a phono cartridge.

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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

Hi Ron,

Yes, it's true that the cartridge / SUT "upgrade" would be a leap of faith as well. I've always auditioned my instruments and recording equipment before purchasing so this is all a bit new to me.

I wish I could audition the other Linn upgrades independent from each other, especially with some tube electronics. While I bet I'd enjoy the other Linn upgrades, my Karousel experience has given me some pause for thought. The Karousel demo was frustrating as the Karousel audibly improved certain aspects of playback, but degraded others (to my ears in that particular system - Naim electronics and Linn speakers).
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by HBE »

I use the sKale on my Ekos SE with the Benz LP. Works very well.
Didn’t like the heavy cw from Linn. Very tight, in fact so tight I did not use it to not harm the bearings.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by ThomasOK »

Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-04-01 23:40 Hi Ron,

Yes, it's true that the cartridge / SUT "upgrade" would be a leap of faith as well. I've always auditioned my instruments and recording equipment before purchasing so this is all a bit new to me.

I wish I could audition the other Linn upgrades independent from each other, especially with some tube electronics. While I bet I'd enjoy the other Linn upgrades, my Karousel experience has given me some pause for thought. The Karousel demo was frustrating as the Karousel audibly improved certain aspects of playback, but degraded others (to my ears in that particular system - Naim electronics and Linn speakers).
I have to guess that the Karousel bearing you heard was not torqued properly. The Linn torques (there have been two over time) are not optimal musically. I can't find anything the Karousel doesn't do more musically (although I will note it is not unanimous on this forum).
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

You may well be right Thomas. You also use different torque settings based upon the model of sub-chassis installed, yes?
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by lejonklou »

Even with the optimal torque on the top nut of Karousel, I still feel that some things are better and some things are worse compared to Cirkus. And I know a bunch of people who feel the same.

The bottom nut torque has not yet been optimized, I wonder whether that would change my opinion.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

Hey Fredrik,

I agree. I feel (in my admittedly limited experience) that the Karousel is a mixed bag of sorts. What do you feel that the Karousel brings to the table and what do you think it takes away (vs the Cirkus)?

Do you have similar feelings about any of the other Linn upgrades (Lingo 4, Radikal, Kore, Keel, Ekos 2, Ekos SE/1)?

Trying to figure out the next step.
Last edited by Albert Hunt on 2021-04-03 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by ThomasOK »

Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-04-02 21:02 You may well be right Thomas. You also use different torque settings based upon the model of sub-chassis installed, yes?
Yes, this is true. I was actually surprised to find that the musically optimum torque for the Karousel on the Keel is lower than it is on the Majik/Kore sub chassis. Surprised because this is the opposite of the case with the Cirkus bearing where the Keel torque is higher. But it really is a whole different story using the large, custom-machined flange nut for fastening rather than three hex bolts.

On the Keel it is easily most musical at 2.6Nm +5 notches on the Sturtevant Richmont CAL 36/4 (the best driver for these purposes), which should be very close to 2.7Nm on any other driver. This has been found to work the best by a number of the people on this forum. I find 3.5Nm On a Kore or Majik the most musical is 3.4Nm, relatively close to Linn's 3.5Nm but that .1Nm makes a substantial musical difference. I haven't done significant testing on a Cirkus sub chassis yet as I've only done one and was time constrained. But it did sound quite good at the 3.4Nm setting as well so I wouldn't be surprised if that was optimum there too.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-02 22:01 Even with the optimal torque on the top nut of Karousel, I still feel that some things are better and some things are worse compared to Cirkus. And I know a bunch of people who feel the same.

The bottom nut torque has not yet been optimized, I wonder whether that would change my opinion.
Bottom nut torque 2.4Nm +2. I've been doing them for a fair amount of time. Linn's torque is fairly close to this, sometimes you will have to use a regular driver to loosen it, most times not. But we all know close isn't good enough when it comes to torques.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by lejonklou »

Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-04-02 22:38 Hey Fredrik,

I agree. I feel (in my admittedly limited experience) that the Karousel is a mixed bag of sorts. What do you feel that the Karousel brings to the table and what do you think it takes away (vs the Cirkus)?

Do you have similar feelings about any of the other Linn upgrades (Lingo 4, Radikal, Kore, Keel, Ekos 2, Ekis SE/1)?

Trying to figure out the next step.
It's difficult to put into words, but I feel that the change it brings is in a digital direction. That is, the dynamics increase and loud sounds are cleaner. But the low level information is more sterile and this affects the fine musical interplay. I also find that bass notes are less precise and occasionally overblown. In musical terms it's immediately impressive, but I have trouble getting over that I find it less intimate than with Cirkus.

I don't have any such feelings about the other upgrades and strongly recommend upgrading the LP12 in the hierarchical order; Motor controller, subchassis, arm and, last, cartridge. After having tried all sorts of combinations to disprove the hierarchy and setting up many hundreds of LP12's, the outcome has always been the same: The hierarchy rules.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by lejonklou »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-02 23:54 Bottom nut torque 2.4Nm +2. I've been doing them for a fair amount of time. Linn's torque is fairly close to this, sometimes you will have to use a regular driver to loosen it, most times not. But we all know close isn't good enough when it comes to torques.
Thanks, I did get that one. But there was talk of a higher torque, beyond the range of CAL 36/4. As that hasn't been investigated, I sort of placed some hope on a possible new finding there.
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Re: LP12 Counterweights For Heavier Cartridges

Post by Albert Hunt »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-03 00:31
Albert Hunt wrote: 2021-04-02 22:38 Hey Fredrik,

I agree. I feel (in my admittedly limited experience) that the Karousel is a mixed bag of sorts. What do you feel that the Karousel brings to the table and what do you think it takes away (vs the Cirkus)?

Do you have similar feelings about any of the other Linn upgrades (Lingo 4, Radikal, Kore, Keel, Ekos 2, Ekis SE/1)?

Trying to figure out the next step.
It's difficult to put into words, but I feel that the change it brings is in a digital direction. That is, the dynamics increase and loud sounds are cleaner. But the low level information is more sterile and this affects the fine musical interplay. I also find that bass notes are less precise and occasionally overblown. In musical terms it's immediately impressive, but I have trouble getting over that I find it less intimate than with Cirkus.

I don't have any such feelings about the other upgrades and strongly recommend upgrading the LP12 in the hierarchical order; Motor controller, subchassis, arm and, last, cartridge. After having tried all sorts of combinations to disprove the hierarchy and setting up many hundreds of LP12's, the outcome has always been the same: The hierarchy rules.
Thanks Fredrik. I heard something very similar when listening to the Karousel. Just as you say I heard an increase in dynamics with the Karousel. I also felt that the high-midrange and lower treble frequencies were more refined, especially on loud passages. It sounded more precise yet less engaging

I felt that the Cirkus equipped LP12 sounded more natural and truer to my experience recording in large studios. This was most apparent when listening to a reference track off of Miles Davis' "Porgy & Bess". With the Cirkus, I felt like I was in the room whereas with the Karousel I felt like I was outside of it, or at least farther away from the musicians.

I had walked in to the demo ready to buy the Karousel but listened blind. In fact, over and over I guessed that I was listening to the Karousel when I was in fact listening to the Cirkus as I found the latter more musical and expected the Karousel to sound superior. This leaves me wondering whether I'd prefer a pre-Cirkus bearing to my Cirkus. Or perhaps the Karousel just wasn't optimized as Thomas suspects.

At any rate, it's nice to hear that you feel unequivocally positive regarding the other upgrades.
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