A provocation

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David Neel
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A provocation

Post by David Neel »

Is streaming all it's cracked up to be? I get that we can now stream any music we like from several services. For a number of reasons that doesn't appeal to me. What I want from streaming is simple: the best reproduction possible of music, not available on vinyl, which is owned by me on CD.

Years ago, I had the obligatory demo of the Linn DS, showing that it was better than CD. The logic of this (if I remember) was that the limitations of CD replay could be bypassed by ripping the CD and then streaming it. I was convinced, to the extent that I sold my Ikemi and bought an ADS/1 - and built an LSNAS.

The ADS/1 became an ADS/3, and then I built a Hakai. The Hakai outperformed the ADS/3. But I have spent countless hours trying to get the system right, rather than enjoying music. There is immense satisfaction in all this, but I keep wondering whether there are now CD transports/players out there which will outperform Hakai. Where all I have to do is load a CD and press play...

Or will Fredrik build a KDS killer?
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Re: A provocation

Post by matthias »

David Neel wrote: 2021-02-23 21:26 There is immense satisfaction in all this, but I keep wondering whether there are now CD transports/players out there which will outperform Hakai. Where all I have to do is load a CD and press play...
I am waiting for the upcoming Schiit Audio cd transport named "Urd".
It is not expensive (USD 1300)and supposed to be very good.
I have no clue if it will outperform Hakai, maybe it will do the trick.

Matt
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Re: A provocation

Post by Matteo »

David Neel wrote: 2021-02-23 21:26 But I have spent countless hours trying to get the system right, rather than enjoying music.
This is extremely corresponding to me and the main reason why I try to avoid NAS, Space Optimization etc, and listen almost exclusively to vinyl and marginally to Qobuz.

M.
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Re: A provocation

Post by Charlie1 »

But who out there can give you what we want David? Other than Fredrik, who has followed in Ivor and Julian's footsteps? And these days Linn seem hit and miss and not confident either of us would very much enjoy any player from Naim or Rega. I'll take beck's tweaked Nad though.

I know what you mean about the simplicity of CD. But if you did find something good then you might still be tempted to tweak it since beck has demonstrated that a lot can be done at very little cost.

Have to say that our Sneaky DS/Katans do a great job and keep the family entertained, particularly during washing up time. Low cost / low expectations though, and not exactly critical listening.
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Re: A provocation

Post by u252agz »

Is it the Hakai that is making you spend so many hours with the digital system?

The Linn streamers have in my experience been absolutely rock solid ( I have had three sneakys and KDS/2, purchased 2011 -2013 ) and only require a stable WiFi set up ( which I now have with BT whole home wif discs) and a reliable source which the streaming services give (I use Quobuz).

I am completely averse to any digital system which requires regular tinkering and could never go down the Hakai route, irrespective of how good it might be

The simple rule for me is that when I want to listen to digital music - the system has to work-pretty much everytime.

Otherwise I would, as others do , just use vinyl ( or perhaps consider the CD facility in my oppo 103 and classik movie)
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Re: A provocation

Post by springwood64 »

I come at this from a different perspective. I really appreciate all that streaming offers in the way of new music discovery. In that respect it has no peer, for me.

I love the music I play through my Hakai.

However, I find it surprising after all this time that digital does not comfortably out-perform vinyl.

It's a mystery to me that the same digitally recorded music can sound more enjoyable on vinyl than on digital.
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Re: A provocation

Post by David Neel »

matthias wrote: 2021-02-23 22:28 I am waiting for the upcoming Schiit Audio cd transport named "Urd".
It is not expensive (USD 1300)and supposed to be very good.
I have no clue if it will outperform Hakai, maybe it will do the trick.

Matt
Thank you. Good to know.
Matteo wrote: 2021-02-23 22:42
David Neel wrote: 2021-02-23 21:26 But I have spent countless hours trying to get the system right, rather than enjoying music.
This is extremely corresponding to me and the main reason why I try to avoid NAS, Space Optimization etc, and listen almost exclusively to vinyl and marginally to Qobuz.

M.
I'm with you on SO especially. Having too many settings that are possible leads to frustration as you try to optimise. A bit like modern cars with adjustable dampers.
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-02-24 00:48 I know what you mean about the simplicity of CD. But if you did find something good then you might still be tempted to tweak it since beck has demonstrated that a lot can be done at very little cost.
Good point!
u252agz wrote: 2021-02-24 09:58 I am completely averse to any digital system which requires regular tinkering and could never go down the Hakai route, irrespective of how good it might be

The simple rule for me is that when I want to listen to digital music - the system has to work-pretty much everytime.
The regular tinkering is my choice, so that part of the pain is self-inflicted. I guess my frustration crystallised when I recently felt I had REALLY got the Hakai singing after reversing some changes I'd made along the way, only to change back to vinyl and realise the gap was still vast.
springwood64 wrote: 2021-02-24 10:31 It's a mystery to me that the same digitally recorded music can sound more enjoyable on vinyl than on digital.
Yes! Me too...
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Re: A provocation

Post by beck »

The expression “pull yourself together” to me is so relevant when it comes to digitally recorded music.

Each time a digital proces takes place from the recording studio to your ears at home there is a chance of further spreading of all the small “hails fired from the shotgun”. Less and less of them will “hit the target”. Music becomes less of a whole and more a collection of details.
Making a digital recording into a vinyl album stops this proces and keeps what is left together avoiding further “spreading” in the playback proces.

My work with my cd player has had full focus on this aspect and has been quite successful as I now really enjoy my cd collection.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: A provocation

Post by Lego »

David Neel wrote: 2021-02-23 21:26 Is streaming all it's cracked up to be? I get that we can now stream any music we like from several services. For a number of reasons that doesn't appeal to me. What I want from streaming is simple: the best reproduction possible of music, not available on vinyl, which is owned by me on CD.

Years ago, I had the obligatory demo of the Linn DS, showing that it was better than CD. The logic of this (if I remember) was that the limitations of CD replay could be bypassed by ripping the CD and then streaming it. I was convinced, to the extent that I sold my Ikemi and bought an ADS/1 - and built an LSNAS.

The ADS/1 became an ADS/3, and then I built a Hakai. The Hakai outperformed the ADS/3. But I have spent countless hours trying to get the system right, rather than enjoying music. There is immense satisfaction in all this, but I keep wondering whether there are now CD transports/players out there which will outperform Hakai. Where all I have to do is load a CD and press play...

Or will Fredrik build a KDS killer?
I hear what you're saying David ,maybe you're chopping and changing because you can.Were you happy with your DS3 before the Hakai came along...or your Lp12 for that matter ?

Although I use another pc player and the Hakai for a Nas ,I find some days it can sound breathtaking other days just very ordinary.Im guessing its either me the network or the amplifiers .
You could always put on some Ornette Coleman ,that would certainly clear out the cobwebs 😄
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Re: A provocation

Post by Lego »

u252agz wrote: 2021-02-24 09:58 Is it the Hakai that is making you spend so many hours with the digital system?

The Linn streamers have in my experience been absolutely rock solid ( I have had three sneakys and KDS/2, purchased 2011 -2013 ) and only require a stable WiFi set up ( which I now have with BT whole home wif discs) and a reliable source which the streaming services give (I use Quobuz).

I am completely averse to any digital system which requires regular tinkering and could never go down the Hakai route, irrespective of how good it might be

The simple rule for me is that when I want to listen to digital music - the system has to work-pretty much everytime.

Otherwise I would, as others do , just use vinyl ( or perhaps consider the CD facility in my oppo 103 and classik movie)
The Hakais and networks are rock solid , work every time and don't require constant tinkering ,it's just that David chooses to tinker. .
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Re: A provocation

Post by Spannko »

I believe that the greatest barrier to a great streaming experience is (you guessed it!) the power supply to the switch. As musical as the Netgear power supply is, I’ve never felt that the performance of my system has been as good as a good vinyl system. However, I’ve been listening to Tom Petty (Hypnotic Eye) for the last couple of hours using the latest version of Henri and I’m thoroughly enjoying it! My system has an “attractive” sound which draws me in, as opposed to just being competent. I’d even go as far as saying that it sounds better than most LP12’s I’ve heard in recent years. Now there’s provocative for you!
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Re: A provocation

Post by David Neel »

Lego wrote: 2021-02-24 14:08 maybe you're chopping and changing because you can.Were you happy with your DS3 before the Hakai came along...or your Lp12 for that matter ?
Yes, it's because I can. Even with the DS I got obsessive about which version of Davaar was best!
Lego wrote: 2021-02-24 14:08 You could always put on some Ornette Coleman ,that would certainly clear out the cobwebs 😄
Especially on period vinyl!
Lego wrote: 2021-02-24 14:27 The Hakais and networks are rock solid , work every time and don't require constant tinkering ,it's just that David chooses to tinker. .
Correct. Guilty as charged...
Spannko wrote: 2021-02-24 15:36 I believe that the greatest barrier to a great streaming experience is (you guessed it!) the power supply to the switch. As musical as the Netgear power supply is, I’ve never felt that the performance of my system has been as good as a good vinyl system. However, I’ve been listening to Tom Petty (Hypnotic Eye) for the last couple of hours using the latest version of Henri and I’m thoroughly enjoying it! My system has an “attractive” sound which draws me in, as opposed to just being competent. I’d even go as far as saying that it sounds better than most LP12’s I’ve heard in recent years. Now there’s provocative for you!
Your invitation to listen to my system has just become conditional on bringing Henri also...
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Re: A provocation

Post by Spannko »

Great. I’m looking forward to the day when we can have fun safely again. Henri + Hakai vs LP12, now that should be interesting 😁
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Re: A provocation

Post by FairPlayMotty »

I don't recognise the "inconsistencies" with either a Hakai or my other streamers experienced by some on here. The distaste for digitally recorded music held by some baffles me. Some analogue recordings were poor, some digital ones are too. Unless you're stuck in a musical time warp you're listening to (almost exclusively) digitally recorded music these days - my favourite albums of the last twenty years are digital recordings. It's the music I listen to, not the means of recording it.

CD players were history for me when my Pono player bested the Ikemi that had given me years of disappointment. The best of luck to David on his search.

Based on my switch experiments the switch used is fairly low on the list of important components. Every part counts of course.

I've used at least eight motherboards by Gigabyte, Intel, Asrock and shortly by Jetway to build streamers. The differences between the good motherboards are subtle in my experience.

Sure I've tinkered but I needed something to do during the lockdowns and a deep dive into digital streaming was well worth the effort. My tinkering wasn't to solve a musical problem - it was to satisfy my curiosity.

My favourite streamer is Intel-based though at the moment I'm happily listening to an Asrock-based one that cost less than £100 all in. It's shortly going to be converted to my second server - I'll then sell one of my Gigabyte-based Hakais. The Streacom case isn't big enough imho for a server. A well made ITX case big enough to comfortably house a server can be bought for around £30 and looks like a smallish CD player case.

DACs have been my focus for a few months. I'm convinced that the best NOS DACs I've heard exhibit more musicality than delta/sigma DACs. My preference is for bit perfect and that means a NOS DAC. To my ears they sound more analogue. I'm deferring harvesting a TDA1541A chip from a CD player I bought - the DAC waiting to receive it can wait. I'm enjoying the dual AD1865 DAC I'm currently using too much. I've copied the practice of some high end DAC manufacturers by using an external SPDIF to USB converter. It works for me.

I was amused by the outright rogue who posted recently (having carefully cut and paste the Tune Method terms he knew were his passport to acceptance on this forum). He knew how to avoid the wrath of the usual suspects while exhibiting truly diabolical behaviour.

My focus is the music, it always has been. My primary system is Linn-based but I have no blind loyalty to Linn (having three Ikemis in my rack inside a few months made me doubt the quality control somewhat). Some of the felt discussion made me smile - I'm sure Roy Gandy has been on a heartfelt search for the genuine Linn felt supplier for years :)
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Re: A provocation

Post by Lego »

matthias wrote: 2021-02-23 22:28
David Neel wrote: 2021-02-23 21:26 There is immense satisfaction in all this, but I keep wondering whether there are now CD transports/players out there which will outperform Hakai. Where all I have to do is load a CD and press play...
I am waiting for the upcoming Schiit Audio cd transport named "Urd".
It is not expensive (USD 1300)and supposed to be very good.
I have no clue if it will outperform Hakai, maybe it will do the trick.

Matt
Schitt and (T)Urd ,is there bit of a theme going on here Matt 😄
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Re: A provocation

Post by tokenbrit »

Lego wrote: 2021-02-25 12:52 Schitt and (T)Urd ,is there bit of a theme going on here Matt 😄
Will it be available in a higloss, polished finish? 😉

Maybe you'll change your tune once you've 'urd it 🤪
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Re: A provocation

Post by tokenbrit »

It feels like there are many elements to streaming - to focus on a song or album streamed from a NAS compared with the same(?) recording played on an LP12 could be argued to be ignoring the wider benefits of streaming. If the inadequacy of streaming is in comparison to a 5 figure turntable, then maybe we shouldn't compare - is the streamed music enjoyable in itself, is it convenient either as background music, whether from NAS, streaming service or internet radio, or just convenient to change what's playing without having to walk over and flip the LP? Does the streaming allow you to discover music or listen to podcasts that you wouldn't otherwise? For me it's breadth vs depth: an LP12 allows you to get deeper into the music, but streaming opens up a wider world of entertainment. What's wrong with enjoying both for what they are?
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Re: A provocation

Post by Lego »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-02-25 14:03
Lego wrote: 2021-02-25 12:52 Schitt and (T)Urd ,is there bit of a theme going on here Matt 😄
Will it be available in a higloss, polished finish? 😉

Maybe you'll change your tune once you've 'urd it 🤪
Very droll Tokenbrit 😁
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Re: A provocation

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tokenbrit wrote: 2021-02-25 17:22 It feels like there are many elements to streaming - to focus on a song or album streamed from a NAS compared with the same(?) recording played on an LP12 could be argued to be ignoring the wider benefits of streaming. If the inadequacy of streaming is in comparison to a 5 figure turntable, then maybe we shouldn't compare - is the streamed music enjoyable in itself, is it convenient either as background music, whether from NAS, streaming service or internet radio, or just convenient to change what's playing without having to walk over and flip the LP? Does the streaming allow you to discover music or listen to podcasts that you wouldn't otherwise? For me it's breadth vs depth: an LP12 allows you to get deeper into the music, but streaming opens up a wider world of entertainment. What's wrong with enjoying both for what they are?
David Neel wrote: 2021-02-23 21:26 What I want from streaming is simple: the best reproduction possible of music, not available on vinyl, which is owned by me on CD.
All this boils down to me wanting to play music I've already chosen and purchased, rather than the other things you can do with streaming. It's pretty unfair to compare an LP12 that cost five figures to a streamer that cost three, I'm probably being unreasonable and unrealistic! But the last time I heard them side by side, there was a big difference between a top-flight LP12 and a KDS, where the cost is approximately equivalent.

I sold my ADS/3 because I preferred Hakai. To date, my digital hasn't had to compete with vinyl, just to be good enough when vinyl is not appropriate or available. My thinking is changing because in future I will probably spend a significant part of the year away from my home. The second location will not contain my record collection, but it wouldn't be too difficult to relocate my CD collection, or my Hakai and LSNAS, and buy a Boazu and 109s. I would then end up with one analogue-front-end system, and one digital-front-end system, in different locations. And no tinkering!
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Re: A provocation

Post by ThomasOK »

David Neel wrote: 2021-02-25 18:35 And no tinkering!
Famous last words!
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Re: A provocation

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David Neel wrote: 2021-02-25 18:35 All this boils down to me wanting to play music I've already chosen and purchased, rather than the other things you can do with streaming. It's pretty unfair to compare an LP12 that cost five figures to a streamer that cost three, I'm probably being unreasonable and unrealistic! But the last time I heard them side by side, there was a big difference between a top-flight LP12 and a KDS, where the cost is approximately equivalent.

I sold my ADS/3 because I preferred Hakai. To date, my digital hasn't had to compete with vinyl, just to be good enough when vinyl is not appropriate or available. My thinking is changing because in future I will probably spend a significant part of the year away from my home. The second location will not contain my record collection, but it wouldn't be too difficult to relocate my CD collection, or my Hakai and LSNAS, and buy a Boazu and 109s. I would then end up with one analogue-front-end system, and one digital-front-end system, in different locations. And no tinkering!
That would work,when the digital is you're only source of music ,you'll be more appreciative of what it can do and less willing to possibly make things worse ,if it ain't broke ....
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Re: A provocation

Post by tokenbrit »

David Neel wrote: 2021-02-23 21:26 What I want from streaming is simple: the best reproduction possible of music, not available on vinyl, which is owned by me on CD.
So comparing to an LP12 isn't in frame then; it's just that your LP12 shows up digital in a general sense... As to the best reproduction of what you own on CD, it seems like you've gone a long way to answering that since ADS1 replaced Ikemi, and Hakai replaced ADS3... So, the question is what, if anything, replaces the Hakai, especially if a KDS isn't a musical match for a KLP12 either? In the context of a 2nd system, with Boazu + M109s, I'd expect a Hakai to be close to, if not the best (musically enjoyable) reproduction at a reasonable price... Otherwise you could be beck'ing a CD player, which could take care of the temptation to tinker ;)
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Re: A provocation

Post by David Neel »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-02-25 19:27 Famous last words!
Lego wrote: 2021-02-25 19:41 That would work,when the digital is you're only source of music ,you'll be more appreciative of what it can do and less willing to possibly make things worse ,if it ain't broke ....
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-02-25 22:53 So comparing to an LP12 isn't in frame then; it's just that your LP12 shows up digital in a general sense... As to the best reproduction of what you own on CD, it seems like you've gone a long way to answering that since ADS1 replaced Ikemi, and Hakai replaced ADS3... So, the question is what, if anything, replaces the Hakai, especially if a KDS isn't a musical match for a KLP12 either? In the context of a 2nd system, with Boazu + M109s, I'd expect a Hakai to be close to, if not the best (musically enjoyable) reproduction at a reasonable price... Otherwise you could be beck'ing a CD player, which could take care of the temptation to tinker ;)
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Re: A provocation

Post by Spannko »

David Neel wrote: 2021-02-25 23:38 Thank you all! This forum is better (and cheaper) than therapy!
Would you like to tell me a little bit more about that, David? 😂
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Re: A provocation

Post by u252agz »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-02-25 17:22 It feels like there are many elements to streaming - to focus on a song or album streamed from a NAS compared with the same(?) recording played on an LP12 could be argued to be ignoring the wider benefits of streaming. If the inadequacy of streaming is in comparison to a 5 figure turntable, then maybe we shouldn't compare - is the streamed music enjoyable in itself, is it convenient either as background music, whether from NAS, streaming service or internet radio, or just convenient to change what's playing without having to walk over and flip the LP? Does the streaming allow you to discover music or listen to podcasts that you wouldn't otherwise? For me it's breadth vs depth: an LP12 allows you to get deeper into the music, but streaming opens up a wider world of entertainment. What's wrong with enjoying both for what they are?
Agreed.

I find KDS/2 / Quobuz very good and very enjoyable for many recordings - although there are some quite poor ones out there on the streaming services.

The same album does of course always sound better on my LP12, compared to KDS/2, but my vinyl collection is quite limited I am unwilling to buy records at £30 a time, just to see whether I like the music or not.

Although digital installations do have to be done quite carefully, my impression that an LP12 is only at its best when set up by very experienced and obsessive technicions with 'good ears' - a quite rare breed in my opinion.
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