Why is musical timing a good way to judge a systems performance?

Humans have a very advanced special skill that has to do with detecting very, very small differences in when a sound starts compared to other sounds.
The detection of the small differences must have been helpful in surviving threats in the wild in our past. Maybe to help us determine a predators position and speed when near by.

Compared to this skill we are very bad at figuring out how long a sound lasts compared to other sounds we have heard before. We have to make use of counting or look at watches.

So, if you do not get the way the music times when listening to your system playing there is a good chance something could be better.

Listening to very expensive “high end” systems this is often where they fall short having had too much focus on “sound”. Digital is also hard to get right.

The analog signal is attacked from the outside (drag and more) but is relatively unharmed at the core. It gives you a very “human” listening experience.

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The digital signal is attacked from within and harder to “fix” giving you a more mecanical experience.

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It takes a lot of hard effort to get digital to sound “human”.

That's a nice write-up Beck! To my ears analog music has always sounded better than digital music, which is why I don't have any digital sources on the front end of my stereo.

Cheers!

Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2021-02-16 13:22 That's a nice write-up Beck! To my ears analog music has always sounded better than digital music, which is why I don't have any digital sources on the front end of my stereo.

Cheers!

What do you do about music thats only recorded and released digitally !?

beck wrote: ↑2021-02-16 09:40 Why is musical timing a good way to judge a systems performance?

Humans have a very advanced special skill that has to do with detecting very, very small differences in when a sound starts compared to other sounds.
The detection of the small differences must have been helpful in surviving threats in the wild in our past. Maybe to help us determine a predators position and speed when near by.

Compared to this skill we are very bad at figuring out how long a sound lasts compared to other sounds we have heard before. We have to make use of counting or look at watches.

So, if you do not get the way the music times when listening to your system playing there is a good chance something could be better.

Listening to very expensive “high end” systems this is often where they fall short having had too much focus on “sound”. Digital is also hard to get right.

The analog signal is attacked from the outside (drag and more) but is relatively unharmed at the core. It gives you a very “human” listening experience.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xcf0xleyy3bv ... 2.mov?dl=0

The digital signal is attacked from within and harder to “fix” giving you a more mecanical experience.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fenwlyle3ag7l ... 6.mov?dl=0

It takes a lot of hard effort to get digital to sound “human”.

Not sure what you mean by attacked from within/outside Beck?

Music that is recorded digitally can never be closer to the musicians than it is on the hard disk in the recording studio. It's just entropy after that.

The vinyl recording and reproduction process may indeed mellifluously embellish the sound.

But to eschew digital sound is to throw away most recordings of the last forty years.

Donuk

donuk wrote: ↑2021-02-16 17:32 Music that is recorded digitally can never be closer to the musicians than it is on the hard disk in the recording studio. It's just entropy after that.

The vinyl recording and reproduction process may indeed mellifluously embellish the sound.

But to eschew digital sound is to throw away most recordings of the last forty years.

Donuk,

I agree...and I do listen to many "digital only" recordings through my cars compact disk player. Plus, I have a really decent collection of CD's as well. As it turns out, some of my vinyl records were recorded from a digital source too. And for me, the internet and radio are great sources for finding new music that's available in either format.

At this point, I'm just trying to keep my stereo system as simple as possible without doubling my costs. And having one really great sounding main source is way more affordable than having two.

Enjoy...

Believe it or not guys. My post was not an attempt to start the analog versus digital war once again but among other things just some reflections on how hard it has been for me to get a satisfying “human” sound using a digital medium (cd).

Maybe badly executed! :-)

Lego wrote: ↑2021-02-16 16:49

Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2021-02-16 13:22 That's a nice write-up Beck! To my ears analog music has always sounded better than digital music, which is why I don't have any digital sources on the front end of my stereo.

Cheers!

What do you do about music thats only recorded and released digitally !?

I listen to digital releases through my computer, or the radio, or my cars compact disk player.

Cheers

Have you heard the Love album version beck? It would be interesting to hear where you think it sits on the “digital/analogue” spectrum.

OTOH, a digital/analogue comparison of this nature doesn’t really tell us anything; there are far too many variables involved, almost too many to mention. You know how confused us simple human beings get when we introduce two variables, never mind potentially 10+!

Personally, I don’t think there is a “digital/analogue” spectrum. I think there are “good/bad” or “musical/unmusical” spectrums. Admittedly, most digital systems are in the bad & unmusical groups, but that’s not because they’re digital, it’s because they’re bad!

Yes, I have the Love album on vinyl. It is great but the “human” feel coming from that album is not as good as from the better Beatles albums (at least not through my system).

My cd experiments confirm what Ivor said about digital. Digital playback when disturbed behaves in a more unpredictable manner than analog playback systems but both are disturbed by the psysical world they operate in.

I think I know what you mean beck, about analogue being attacked from the outside and digital from the inside. I'm always amazed how resilient / robust analogue recordings on vinyl are. All those processes just to get the music into your home, followed by a HiFi doing the best it can, but inevitably making things much worse, and yet my favourite music is still captivating and full of humanity.

Whereas, digital seems to have more fundamental problems at the core, like you say. I agree with Lego that modern digital recordings can sound better on a digital system, but never heard anything digitally recorded really grab me like analogue recordings can (especially when kept in the analogue domain). Digital always makes me feel like I'm listening to facsimile of real music, as opposed to analogue which is like a faded copy of actual music.

Anyway, we all find a way that best keeps us happy, a compromise of some sort or another.

Charlie1 wrote: ↑2021-02-17 00:57 I think I know what you mean beck, about analogue being attacked from the outside and digital from the inside. I'm always amazed how resilient / robust analogue recordings on vinyl are. All those processes just to get the music into your home, followed by a HiFi doing the best it can, but inevitably making things much worse, and yet my favourite music is still captivating and full of humanity.

Whereas, digital seems to have more fundamental problems at the core, like you say. I agree with Lego that modern digital recordings can sound better on a digital system, but never heard anything digitally recorded really grab me like analogue recordings can (especially when kept in the analogue domain). Digital always makes me feel like I'm listening to facsimile of real music, as opposed to analogue which is like a faded copy of actual music.

Anyway, we all find a way that best keeps us happy, a compromise of some sort or another.

You read my mind. My thoughts exactly! :-)

I will note that there are artists who feel this way too. An example from a review of The Harrow and the Harvest by Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings. "According to Welch and Rawlings, the decision to release a bespoke vinyl version came about after hearing an early pressing of Van Morrison’s Astral Weeks and their being stunned by how much better it sounded compared to their CD copy. The tandem asked Stephen Marcussen to remaster the recording for vinyl, bought a custom lathe, and cut their own lacquers. The result is an LP whose sonics are now as transparent and organic as the material deserves."

Although I can't find the article right now, when I read about the release of their first vinyl albums Gillian talked about the research to rebuild their own cutting lathe, a project which took years, and stated that these records are the closest you can get to the master tapes. They are indeed very fine recordings.

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-02-17 21:14 I will note that there are artists who feel this way too. An example from a review of The Harrow and the Harvest by Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings. "According to Welch and Rawlings, the decision to release a bespoke vinyl version came about after hearing an early pressing of Van Morrison’s Astral Weeks and their being stunned by how much better it sounded compared to their CD copy. The tandem asked Stephen Marcussen to remaster the recording for vinyl, bought a custom lathe, and cut their own lacquers. The result is an LP whose sonics are now as transparent and organic as the material deserves."

Although I can't find the article right now, when I read about the release of their first vinyl albums Gillian talked about the research to rebuild their own cutting lathe, a project which took years, and stated that these records are the closest you can get to the master tapes. They are indeed very fine recordings.

Nice :)

Thanks for information Thomas, and thanks for the link Tokenbrit!

Cheers

tokenbrit wrote: ↑2021-02-17 21:46

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-02-17 21:14 I will note that there are artists who feel this way too. An example from a review of The Harrow and the Harvest by Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings. "According to Welch and Rawlings, the decision to release a bespoke vinyl version came about after hearing an early pressing of Van Morrison’s Astral Weeks and their being stunned by how much better it sounded compared to their CD copy. The tandem asked Stephen Marcussen to remaster the recording for vinyl, bought a custom lathe, and cut their own lacquers. The result is an LP whose sonics are now as transparent and organic as the material deserves."

Although I can't find the article right now, when I read about the release of their first vinyl albums Gillian talked about the research to rebuild their own cutting lathe, a project which took years, and stated that these records are the closest you can get to the master tapes. They are indeed very fine recordings.

Nice :)

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-02-17 21:14 I will note that there are artists who feel this way too. An example from a review of The Harrow and the Harvest by Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings. "According to Welch and Rawlings, the decision to release a bespoke vinyl version came about after hearing an early pressing of Van Morrison’s Astral Weeks and their being stunned by how much better it sounded compared to their CD copy. The tandem asked Stephen Marcussen to remaster the recording for vinyl, bought a custom lathe, and cut their own lacquers. The result is an LP whose sonics are now as transparent and organic as the material deserves."

Although I can't find the article right now, when I read about the release of their first vinyl albums Gillian talked about the research to rebuild their own cutting lathe, a project which took years, and stated that these records are the closest you can get to the master tapes. They are indeed very fine recordings.

And does the result compete with your other favourite recordings? I forget the name of that one you said was best - think you had it on clear vinyl. Perhaps a live album, not sure.

Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2021-02-16 20:00

Lego wrote: ↑2021-02-16 16:49

Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2021-02-16 13:22 That's a nice write-up Beck! To my ears analog music has always sounded better than digital music, which is why I don't have any digital sources on the front end of my stereo.

Cheers!

What do you do about music thats only recorded and released digitally !?

I listen to digital releases through my computer, or the radio, or my cars compact disk player.

Cheers

..and for the majority of the population that's good enough

beck wrote: ↑2021-02-16 18:40 Believe it or not guys. My post was not an attempt to start the analog versus digital war once again but among other things just some reflections on how hard it has been for me to get a satisfying “human” sound using a digital medium (cd).

Maybe badly executed! :-)

Maybe you haven't tried hard enough Beck.

If the only medium of an album is digital what are you comparing the music to that makes it sound less 'human'.
As you know there are a lot of terrible sounding analogue vinyl out there so I don't think you can generalise, although I do agree about the human feel element especially when it comes to late 50s analogue jazz recordings ..even on CDs .

Actually, there is another method in which we listen to digital releases. I listen to (and watch) concerts that were recorded on disk (blue ray or DVD) through my televisions sound bar and subwoofer. Plus, we can stream various musical performances through the television as well. And that is quite enjoyable too...

Cheers

Lego wrote: ↑2021-02-18 08:13

Tony Tune-age wrote: ↑2021-02-16 20:00

Lego wrote: ↑2021-02-16 16:49

What do you do about music thats only recorded and released digitally !?

I listen to digital releases through my computer, or the radio, or my cars compact disk player.

Cheers

..and for the majority of the population that's good enough

Charlie1 wrote: ↑2021-02-17 23:43

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-02-17 21:14 I will note that there are artists who feel this way too. An example from a review of The Harrow and the Harvest by Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings. "According to Welch and Rawlings, the decision to release a bespoke vinyl version came about after hearing an early pressing of Van Morrison’s Astral Weeks and their being stunned by how much better it sounded compared to their CD copy. The tandem asked Stephen Marcussen to remaster the recording for vinyl, bought a custom lathe, and cut their own lacquers. The result is an LP whose sonics are now as transparent and organic as the material deserves."

Although I can't find the article right now, when I read about the release of their first vinyl albums Gillian talked about the research to rebuild their own cutting lathe, a project which took years, and stated that these records are the closest you can get to the master tapes. They are indeed very fine recordings.

And does the result compete with your other favourite recordings? I forget the name of that one you said was best - think you had it on clear vinyl. Perhaps a live album, not sure.

I don't have a good answer for that one. For me the quality of the musical perfromance outweighs the quality of the vinyl pressing, although it is always nice to have both. Also a bad or mediocre pressing can easily remove all the life from the music, as a thread ranting about how bad most remasters are on the Linn/WAM forum indicates. I had this experience when comparing several pressings of Fleetwood Mac "Rumours" as the newer pressings had no life or bounce, especially compared to a first pressing I managed to get. So it becomes tough to answer. The Clarity Vinyl 45RPM of "St. James Infirmary" by Satchmo is indeed jaw dropping, it has blown away Fredrik and many others. But considering the comparisons I have done between 45RPM and 33.3RPM recordings I have to believe it would have even been better done the same way at 33.3RPM. On the other hand the rerelease of "Wee Small Hours" by Frank Sinatra a couple of years ago on a standard pressing can also raise goosebumps on my system.

I haven't tried to evaluate the Gillian Welch records strictly on their fidelity, nor have I done any kind of A/B with other records for musical enjoyment. I think it would be pointless as that is greatly influenced by your mood when you listen to something. But I do quite enjoy the Gillian Welch records and I do find a musical naturalness in them and other recent all analog pressings, like "The New Standard" by Jamie Saft, Steve Swallow and Bobby Previte I have previously mentioned, compared to other new records that are from digital masters, as is most new music.

That's the one, "St. James Infirmary". I agree it's hard or impossible to compare these things. I think you just get a feel for them over the years and can tell when the recording itself is hardly getting in the way of the music.