Apple TV to Akurate DS

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Allan3630
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Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Allan3630 »

Hi all,

I am currently streaming Spotify from my iPad to my Linn system using an Apple TV connected to a Unidisk SC (via an optic cable). I am considering upgrading to a Akurate DS/0.

My questions are:
1. Will this improve the sound?
2. How do I set it up. Do I have to run an ethernet cable from the Akurate all the way to the router. (Can I connect it to a WiFi repeater?). Do I need a NAS and how do I connect it to the network?
3. How do I connect Spotify to the Akurate?

Forgive the dum questions but I am new to the DS world and am not NAS savy!

Cheers,
Allan
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Ron The Mon »

Allan3630 wrote: 2021-02-06 14:35 I am currently streaming Spotify from my iPad to my Linn system using an Apple TV connected to a Unidisk SC (via an optic cable). I am considering upgrading to a Akurate DS/0.

My questions are:
1. Will this improve the sound?
2. How do I set it up. Do I have to run an ethernet cable from the Akurate all the way to the router. (Can I connect it to a WiFi repeater?). Do I need a NAS and how do I connect it to the network?
3. How do I connect Spotify to the Akurate?

Forgive the dumb questions but I am new to the DS world and am not NAS savvy!
Allan,
Read this helpful info about Spotify on DS.

Currently, for Spotify, you are using the iPad as a control point and source. Your AppleTV is a streamer, and the Unidisk is the DAC. With the DS, it becomes your source, streamer, and DAC; the iPad is now just the control point.

Do you use the AppleTV for anything else, like TV or other radio apps? If so, invest in the new AppleTV 4K, it has the ability to wirelessly stream to a DS (and anything else with AppleConnect) and has much better features plus improved picture and sound.

I don't have a direct answer about sound quality. My guess is it would improve with the DS because your current source is the iPad app. Be aware some on this forum use the DS as a preamp, while others don't. Compare before you remove the preamp.

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Allan3630 »

Thanks Ron!
That clarifies things substantially.
My Apple TV is only for streaming music purposes. I use the Apple TV 3 only because it has a toslink interface, required by my unidisk sc which the gen 4 does not have.
It sounds to me that the solution is to use SpotifyConnect to connect to the DS, using my iPad as the controller and the internet as the source. The problem is that it requires a Davaar firmware version from 2017 which is newer than the Akurate DS I am looking at.
As an aside, I would need to connect the Ethernet cable from the DS to a WiFi repeater as I do not have a router. I am using my 4G Telephone as a hotspot in the house..has worked well up til now.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Øyvind I »

Hi a bit input here:
1) As pointed out by Ron The Man, due to the technical arrangement with Linn's streaming technology you should get a better sound
2) Although WiFi can work (avoid Apple Airport Express etc as they are not fully compliant with the industry standard and often results in missing to find the Room). Generally the systems in my experience are rock stable with wired solution and a bit unstable on WiFi.
3) as mentioned but you need Spotify Premium to access in the described way, otherwise it is just wifi form your phone.

Having said that, for the first and most important part for sound quality, you may get an improvement but Spotify (even the Premium version) is such heavily compressed that I would not bother. The only beneficial part with Spotify is their app which is quite good (but Tidals stand-alone app is not bad either). Tidal or Quobus is a significant better service for sound and musical enjoyment due to not being compressing as by Spotify.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by lejonklou »

Øyvind I wrote: 2021-02-08 09:44 Having said that, for the first and most important part for sound quality, you may get an improvement but Spotify (even the Premium version) is such heavily compressed that I would not bother.
How long ago was it that you compared Spotify with Tidal, Øyvind?

If it was a couple of years ago, I suggest you do it again. You may be surprised by the outcome.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Øyvind I »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-02-08 12:10
Øyvind I wrote: 2021-02-08 09:44 Having said that, for the first and most important part for sound quality, you may get an improvement but Spotify (even the Premium version) is such heavily compressed that I would not bother.
How long ago was it that you compared Spotify with Tidal, Øyvind?

If it was a couple of years ago, I suggest you do it again. You may be surprised by the outcome.
Hi Fredik, quite frequent. Mate of mine has a Sneaky DS and he uses Spotify Premium. In his system (Sneaky to Krell 400 amp to Audio Physics Yara) or in my systems, either MDSM/2/M6100 /M109 or Akubarik Katalyst Exakt (external)the outcome is exactly the same. I would not bother with Spotify. "Sound" is good but tune, dynamics, transients and the ability to really show of how the band plays together it falls completely through and the music is boring in comparison. Only the app is good.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by lejonklou »

That's odd. I have never once in the last three years found Tidal more musical than Spotify. And I have compared together with quite a few other people. We always arrived the same conclusion, which appears to be the opposite of yours:

Spotify does not "sound" as good, but it makes more musical sense.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Matteo »

Fredrik, have you compared Tidal (or Qobuz) vs. Spotify through a Linn DS?

IME, Spotify sounds good with a PC but poor with a Linn DS.

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by lejonklou »

Good observation, Matteo!

It was a couple of years since I last compared them using a Linn DS. Last time I remember we thought Spotify was better, but sounding a bit dull. Spotify has improved since then and I know why, but I can't talk about it.

It's however true that the implementation sets the level of performance. Especially a plugin on a streamer can be made to sound great or not very good at all, depending on how it's done. This impact is, rather surprisingly, far greater than the difference between uncompressed and compressed streams of audio.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Øyvind I »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-02-08 17:01 Good observation, Matteo!

It was a couple of years since I last compared them using a Linn DS. Last time I remember we thought Spotify was better, but sounding a bit dull. Spotify has improved since then and I know why, but I can't talk about it.

It's however true that the implementation sets the level of performance. Especially a plugin on a streamer can be made to sound great or not very good at all, depending on how it's done. This impact is, rather surprisingly, far greater than the difference between uncompressed and compressed streams of audio.
If the couple of years was standard Spotify - that's interesting. At that time it was very understandable why Linn did not include it with their streams - even though the market push was there. Standard Spotyfy is still not incorporated in the DS.

Perhaps a bit similar why some prefer the "sound" of cheaper tube amps - compared to a good phono amp as Gailo etc. True, how the streamer is set ups, switch, cabling, position all plays an important role but the difference is the same respectively - only made more evident by a better installation.
The question from OP was related to a DS for which I would not bother (for the cost). I got no experience with comparison via a PC but even from an iPhone via their respective apps, Spotify is dull and lacking dynamics.
Spotify does not manage to present in the same manner (in comparison with Tidal) how a good piano player or guitarist is (for piano and those who play the instrument; how the keys are pressed, more perpendicular or a different techniques is the result of the individual artist and their interpretation of a classical piece).
But a discussion on streaming services is perhaps better had in a separate discussion ;-) Edit: There is indeed a good thread on this....
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by u252agz »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-02-08 15:56 That's odd. I have never once in the last three years found Tidal more musical than Spotify. And I have compared together with quite a few other people. We always arrived the same conclusion, which appears to be the opposite of yours:

Spotify does not "sound" as good, but it makes more musical sense.
This was my conclusion one year ago.

I had been using Tidal as my first streaming service very happily for three months- then I happened to walk into the kitchen where my daughter was listening on Spotify to one of her albums which I had listened to on Tidal.

It was much more musical -not as good with the HI FI sounds but more tuneful and enjoyable.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by John »

I have always enjoyed listening to my LP12 and never embraced CD’s. I purchased a Sonos Amp two years ago and on a lark tried it with my main speakers. Happy with how it performed and worked in the context of my multi-room setup, it remains in place. In that time I started embracing Spotify Premium of which we’ve had a family account for years but seldom used myself.

I have found myself more and more actively listening with Spotify as a source and find it to be quite musically enjoyable. There’s just so much more music out there to explore and doing so from a single iPad is hard to beat. I have to think that the quality of the Sonos infrastructure both hardware and software-wise and their relationship with Spotify might have something to do with it.
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Switch to Spotify

Post by Ron The Mon »

John wrote: 2021-02-09 15:50 I have always enjoyed listening to my LP12 and never embraced CD’s.
John,
Same here. The Spotify app on my Mac sounds better than any CD player I've had in my system. I have compared CDs in my Oppo BDP-105D to Spotify, using the Oppo as a DAC for the Mac. Spotify wins every time. When I compare the Oppo as a streamer with my NAS, it is better than Spotify, but not by much.

I have found myself more and more actively listening with Spotify as a source and find it to be quite musically enjoyable. There’s just so much more music out there to explore and doing so from a single iPad is hard to beat. I have to think that the quality of the Sonos infrastructure both hardware and software-wise and their relationship with Spotify might have something to do with it.
What switch and cables do you use? Try a Netgear GS108 switch and Blue Jeans ethernet cables. For about $110 you can improve Spotify quite a bit.

Ron The Mon

(P.S.
I referenced you for help on the "Playground" thread about your needle-drop experience.)
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by matthias »

Øyvind I wrote: 2021-02-08 09:44 Generally the systems in my experience are rock stable with wired solution and a bit unstable on WiFi.
Not my experience at all.
The WiFi system I use is very stable (2,4 GHz only).
Further, it is very easy to turn WiFi off after the files have been loaded into RAM.

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Would vs. Should vs. Guessing

Post by Ron The Mon »

Øyvind I wrote: 2021-02-08 09:44 1) As pointed out by Ran Tha Man, due to the technical arrangement with Linn's streaming technology you should get a better sound.
Øyvind,
I said, "My guess is it would improve,...". This was in context of iPad/streamed over AppleTV/Unidisk DAC being bettered by an Akurate DS.

Nothing I said should be construed to assume DS as a "better technical arrangement".

In fact, the best digital source I've heard is a Foxconn/XP computer dedicated to only one app: Fidelify. That is the "best technical arrangement" I've ever heard (The Fidelify software no longer works with Spotify).

I'd advise Allan not to get a Linn DS; it is not for him. He should first get the fastest cable at home, not a jury-rigged 4G arrangement. Then a Netgear GS108/Blue Jeans ethernet system. Then an Apple Mac mini, using the headphone out into the preamp. That will cost less than a Linn Akurate streamer and give him a LOT more for the money. Not just for sound quality on Spotify, but a better computer system. Toss in an AppleTV 4K for good measure to improve video and other music apps elsewhere in the home.

Do the math. Two Plus Two Is On My Mind.

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Re: Would vs. Should vs. Guessing

Post by Allan3630 »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-02-08 09:44 I'd advise Allan not to get a Linn DS; it is not for him. He should first get the fastest cable at home, not a jury-rigged 4G arrangement. Then a Netgear GS108/Blue Jeans ethernet system. Then an Apple Mac mini, using the headphone out into the preamp. That will cost less than a Linn Akurate streamer and give him a LOT more for the money. Not just for sound quality on Spotify, but a better computer system. Toss in an AppleTV 4K for good measure to improve video and other music apps elsewhere in the home.
Interesting solution. Like that!
Any reason that I need the switch? Can I not just run a cable directly from the Apple Mac mini to the broadband router?
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Allan3630 »

As an aside..I had a friend over recently to do a blind listening test between Tidal and Spotify, on my iPad. I trusted his ear better than mine.

One could definitely hear the difference. Tidal won on the acoustic numbers ( "Mayfly" Paul Weller) but interestingly enough my friend chose Spotify on the classical (Boccherini Cello Concerto, Yo-Yo Ma).

Must be said that all this was running on my appleTV/Unidisk/Klout/Kan system which is running in "transistor radio" mode for the time being. i.e. rubbish! Something I also need to work on.

So the gear being played through may also have something to be said on which is best.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Allan3630 »

Øyvind I wrote: 2021-02-08 09:44 I'd advise Allan not to get a Linn DS; it is not for him. He should first get the fastest cable at home, not a jury-rigged 4G arrangement. Then a Netgear GS108/Blue Jeans ethernet system. Then an Apple Mac mini, using the headphone out into the preamp. That will cost less than a Linn Akurate streamer and give him a LOT more for the money. Not just for sound quality on Spotify, but a better computer system. Toss in an AppleTV 4K for good measure to improve video and other music apps elsewhere in the home.
Just a quick question..when you are using the headphone out are you not using the DAC in the Apple Mac mini instead of the one in the preamp? Is the DAC ok on the mini?
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Re: Would vs. Should vs. Guessing

Post by Matteo »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-02-09 19:06
I'd advise Allan not to get a Linn DS; it is not for him. He should first get the fastest cable at home, not a jury-rigged 4G arrangement. Then a Netgear GS108/Blue Jeans ethernet system. Then an Apple Mac mini, using the headphone out into the preamp. That will cost less than a Linn Akurate streamer and give him a LOT more for the money. Not just for sound quality on Spotify, but a better computer system. Toss in an AppleTV 4K for good measure to improve video and other music apps elsewhere in the home.
The new Mac-mini hasn't a coaxial/optical out.

Can you use the HDMI out to connect it to a Linn DSM to bypass the Mac-mini DAC?

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Re: Would vs. Should vs. Guessing

Post by Ron The Mon »

Matteo wrote: 2021-03-02 17:35
Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-02-09 19:06 I'd advise Allan not to get a Linn DS; it is not for him. He should first get the fastest cable at home, not a jury-rigged 4G arrangement. Then a Netgear GS108/Blue Jeans ethernet system. Then an Apple Mac mini, using the headphone out into the preamp. That will cost less than a Linn Akurate streamer and give him a LOT more for the money. Not just for sound quality on Spotify, but a better computer system. Toss in an AppleTV 4K for good measure to improve video and other music apps elsewhere in the home.
The new Mac-mini hasn't a coaxial/optical out.

Can you use the HDMI out to connect it to a Linn DSM to bypass the Mac-mini DAC?
I also said in the same post
Ron The Mon wrote:Nothing I said should be construed to assume DS as a "better technical arrangement".
Matteo,
I don't know what arrangement or combinations sound best. In fact, I haven't heard the "New" M1 Mac mini myself yet, let alone compared it being run through a DS. Why would you want to do that? Are you assuming the Spotify player in the Mac mini is better than using Spotify Connect in the DS? Or are you assuming the DAC in a DS is better sounding than that in a Mac mini?

Regardless, there are several ways to connect a Mac mini to a Linn DS (and other types of streamers and DACs). There are third party adapters/connectors which will convert Thunderbolt to coaxial or optical. So that is an option.

You can connect via HDMI to a DAC as well. I have done so with a Thunderbolt to HDMI adapter. However, doing so reverted the computer monitor to default settings, making the text too small to read. There may be a workaround, however it didn't sound as good as using USB with two different DACs, so I didn't pursue it. What is weird is using the HDMI to a TV, then the TV HDMI to my Oppo DAC sounds better than Mac mini HDMI directly to it. I am guessing there is a clock issue.

I also recently connected my Apple TV 4K via HDMI to DAC from the Spotify app controlled from iPhone via Spotify Connect. It also sounded better going through the TV first. It seems counterintuitive to think an extra cable connection would sound better, but it does. This result may change with a different TV and DAC.

Most Microsoft computers go through multiple mixers and volume controls before going to a USB output, unless you use an ASIO output. I believe that's why many prefer S/PDIF outputs.

I have stated before that the Mac mini analog headphone output sounds really good, better than any outboard DAC I've used, trying multiple configurations. My recommendations to Allan were based on his priorities. If the new Spotify HIFI computer app player sounds as good as they are claiming, it may be possible to use a cheap laptop with an ESI GIGAPORT and achieve fantastic results for under $400.

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Re: Would vs. Should vs. Guessing

Post by Ron The Mon »

Allan3630 wrote: 2021-02-13 13:07
Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-02-08 09:44 I'd advise Allan not to get a Linn DS; it is not for him. He should first get the fastest cable at home, not a jury-rigged 4G arrangement. Then a Netgear GS108/Blue Jeans ethernet system. Then an Apple Mac mini, using the headphone out into the preamp. That will cost less than a Linn Akurate streamer and give him a LOT more for the money. Not just for sound quality on Spotify, but a better computer system. Toss in an AppleTV 4K for good measure to improve video and other music apps elsewhere in the home.
Interesting solution. Like that!
Any reason that I need the switch? Can I not just run a cable directly from the Apple Mac mini to the broadband router?
It sounds better through the Netgear GS108, even if all you are running is the Mac mini. When I had a Microsoft computer (not sure of the ethernet card) it sounded better without the switch. Interestingly, the Fidelify software I was using to play XP/Spotify is like the Mac in that it didn't store files locally.

Just a quick question..when you are using the headphone out are you not using the DAC in the Apple Mac mini instead of the one in the preamp? Is the DAC ok on the mini?
Yes, the headphone output on all recent Macs and AirPort Express sound really good. The Mac mini sounds superb. Like all amplifiers, there is the burn-in factor. Connect a pair of headphones playing loudly for a week or so before comparing and purchasing any outboard DAC.

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Allan3630 »

Hi all,

Thanks for all the super input, although I am now rather confused.

I have since gotten a 4G router which gives the possibility to connect 4 devices with ethernet cables.

How do I connect a mac mini with my preamp (digital TOSlink input or RCA analogue), how do I connect the mac to the network and how do I control the Spotify/Tidal streamed music (using my iPad today which is also the source). Where does the Netgear gs108 come in (have no idea what blue jeans is).

I hear you get best results using the network or the DS as the source rather than the iPad.

Have to excuse my ignorance!

Best, Allan
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by matthias »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-03-04 04:05 Yes, the headphone output on all recent Macs and AirPort Express sound really good. The Mac mini sounds superb. Like all amplifiers, there is the burn-in factor. Connect a pair of headphones playing loudly for a week or so before comparing and purchasing any outboard DAC.
+1
There are reports that the new Mac Mini with M1 chip has an even better sounding HP output than the former generation iMac with Intel processors.

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Kalle05 »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-02-08 15:56 That's odd. I have never once in the last three years found Tidal more musical than Spotify. And I have compared together with quite a few other people. We always arrived the same conclusion, which appears to be the opposite of yours:

Spotify does not "sound" as good, but it makes more musical sense.
I have used Tidal for many years, then i tried Deezer and found it to be ”kinder” to my ears, so i switched to Deezer. Now i tried spotify and soundwise it is below Deezer but i enjoy spotify more, it is like everything comes together and it slows down, i have now gone all in on spotify 😀
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Discodave »

I have noticed recently that on my Majik Ds, playing Spotify, it comes up as 44/16 and FLAC bitrate.

Any ideas?
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