Apple TV to Akurate DS

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by matthias »

Discodave wrote: 2021-03-05 17:36 I have noticed recently that on my Majik Ds, playing Spotify, it comes up as 44/16 and FLAC bitrate.
Any ideas?
Maybe some users are beta testers?
Any changes in musicality?
Thanks

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Discodave »

How do you mean? And why would that change it from 320 to Flac?

I dont know if it is more.musical or not tbh
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

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Discodave wrote: 2021-03-05 18:05 How do you mean? And why would that change it from 320 to Flac?
Maybe they offer some users a free trial of the upcoming Spotify Hifi to get some feedback how it works or how it sounds in comparison to the existing Premium?

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Discodave »

Ok, so in Konfig maybe I checked the beta user choice and that's why. Must check.

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Kalle05 »

https://artists.spotify.com/faq/masteri ... potify-why

Very usefull information about loudness war and the settings in spotify app, i use the ”quiet” settings and i can recomend it.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

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Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 09:45 https://artists.spotify.com/faq/masteri ... potify-why

Very usefull information about loudness war and the settings in spotify app, i use the ”quiet” settings and i can recomend it.
Interesting from the Spotify HP:

"Note: The web player and Spotify apps integrated into third-party devices (such as speakers and TVs) don’t currently use Loudness Normalization."

The question is if they can do Loudness Normalisation bit perfect, I do not think so. I would prefer if they do not use LN at all.

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Discodave »

I have noticed that the normalisation option isn't available when playing through ds and also a Google nest. The confirmation is in the FAQs there.

Will try it on quiet. Pretty sure I have it set to normal.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by lejonklou »

Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 09:45 https://artists.spotify.com/faq/masteri ... potify-why

Very usefull information about loudness war and the settings in spotify app, i use the ”quiet” settings and i can recomend it.
In the Spotify app on my Apple devices, there's a button in settings for "Activate volume normalization", which I have always had set to Off. I haven't even compared it, just assuming that Off means the least tampering with the file and therefore the best quality.

How do you use Spotify and what are your recommendations for that platform?

EDIT: It says 'Volume normalization', not 'Loudness normalization'
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Discodave »

The quiet setting is for volume environment. What you refer to is normalisation mode Fredrik.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Discodave »

And it is always turned off when using 3rd party like DS, etc
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by lejonklou »

Discodave wrote: 2021-03-06 11:48 The quiet setting is for volume environment. What you refer to is normalisation mode Fredrik.
No, we're referring to the same thing. 'Volume normalization' can be toggled on or off. If I switch it on, I get to choose between three levels, according to the environment I listen in.

The reason why I'm asking is that Kalle05 don't seem to have the option to switch it off? That I have never seen.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Discodave »

Mine comes under Volume Level and separately normalise volume. But yes I understand now we are talking about the same thing.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by John »

I have been using Quite but do notice a difference in volume levels when listening to playlists.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

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lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-06 11:41
Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 09:45 https://artists.spotify.com/faq/masteri ... potify-why

Very usefull information about loudness war and the settings in spotify app, i use the ”quiet” settings and i can recomend it.
In the Spotify app on my Apple devices, there's a button in settings for "Activate volume normalization", which I have always had set to Off. I haven't even compared it, just assuming that Off means the least tampering with the file and therefore the best quality.

How do you use Spotify and what are your recommendations for that platform?

EDIT: It says 'Volume normalization', not 'Loudness normalization'
I have ”volume normalisation” turned on, then you get rid of the worst ”loudness war” compressed music files, then i set the other sound option to quiet, then the lufs value is -23, far better than the standard -14
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by matthias »

Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 15:06 I have ”volume normalisation” turned on, then you get rid of the worst ”loudness war” compressed music files, then i set the other sound option to quiet, then the lufs value is -23, far better than the standard -14
Sorry, can you please explain what you hope to gain with "volume normalisation" turned on. In my understanding Spotify changes only the volume level of the track. Compression of the track takes place at the recording or mastering so Spotify can not reverse compression. However in my understanding volume normalisation applies some sort of digital volume control on the track and is not bit perfect.
Thanks

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

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Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 15:06 I have ”volume normalisation” turned on, then you get rid of the worst ”loudness war” compressed music files, then i set the other sound option to quiet, then the lufs value is -23, far better than the standard -14
Have you compared with having volume normalisation switched off?

As Matthias wrote above, there is nothing Spotify can do about processing done at recording and mastering. Volume normalisation just adds more processing of the music.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

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lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-06 17:54
Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 15:06 I have ”volume normalisation” turned on, then you get rid of the worst ”loudness war” compressed music files, then i set the other sound option to quiet, then the lufs value is -23, far better than the standard -14
Have you compared with having volume normalisation switched off?

As Matthias wrote above, there is nothing Spotify can do about processing done at recording and mastering. Volume normalisation just adds more processing of the music.
Listen to Bohemian rapsody at high volume and compare the settings, i am saying that the settings i have is much better than having everything turned to off.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by Allan3630 »

This might be a bit late posting this in this thread.. it involves questions to earlier thread replies.

Now I have been following this thread with great interest. I have not always been so good at reading the replies before asking more questions. I have appreciated all the info but am still a little confused, putting it all together.

1. In a streaming solution where the mac mini is connected to a Netgear GS108 switch, the switch still needs to be connected to the broadband/4G router, does it not? Why would it not be better to connect the mac directly.
2. Is the DAC in the mac mini better than a preamp Linn Kinos. If I use the Kinos DAC how would I connect it? (no TOSLink on mac)
3. What kind of Spotify app should be installed on the mac. Is it possible to control it remotely from a iPad for example.
4. Will the mac sound better than a Linn Majik DS say. The reason I ask is that I can get the latter for 100pounds cheaper.
5. Can I use the mac as a NAS at the same time or should I purchase a separate NAS?

Thanks. I promise to not ask any more questions wrt streaming!
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by lejonklou »

Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 22:16
lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-06 17:54
Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 15:06 I have ”volume normalisation” turned on, then you get rid of the worst ”loudness war” compressed music files, then i set the other sound option to quiet, then the lufs value is -23, far better than the standard -14
Have you compared with having volume normalisation switched off?

As Matthias wrote above, there is nothing Spotify can do about processing done at recording and mastering. Volume normalisation just adds more processing of the music.
Listen to Bohemian rapsody at high volume and compare the settings, i am saying that the settings i have is much better than having everything turned to off.
I did just now and find it much worse with Volume normalisation switched on. It's enough with 3 seconds of the initial choir, where Volume normalisation adds a synthetic and disjointed quality. Same thing with the piano, which goes out of tune and just sounds odd.

To experience more of what it does, compare using some other tracks. For instance Kraftwerk 'Computer World'. Volume normalisation adds a synthetic character and a smearing of transients that messes with the timing between sounds and makes the whole melody harder to follow.

This was an interesting test, as I have never tried Volume normalisation on Spotify before. I just disregarded it from a theoretical standpoint and kept it switched off. The same kind of processing is done when using digital volume controls (albeit using higher resolution tools) and room corrections like Space. I find them to rob the music of its most precious qualities. The effect is both subtle and devastating at the same time.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-07 14:16 I did just now and find it much worse with Volume normalisation switched on.
Fredrik,
thanks for sharing. It is nice to know. I do not have Spotify but Qobuz/Audirvana on Mac and have this function disabled as well.

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by fredrik »

Allan3630 wrote: 2021-02-07 09:37 The problem is that it requires a Davaar firmware version from 2017 which is newer than the Akurate DS I am looking at.
All Linn DS so far have been forward compatible in regards to firmware. You should be able to apply the current firmware without issue on ADS and get the latest support.
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Streaming vs. "Streaming"

Post by Ron The Mon »

Allan3630 wrote: 2021-03-07 13:09 I have not always been so good at reading the replies before asking more questions.
Allan,
I have already answered five of your seven questions asked in your post above (two items had two questions) at least once. I will answer the last item, then give you the advice you really need.
5. Can I use the mac as an NAS at the same time, or should I purchase a separate NAS?
No. Yes. A Mac is a "PC" or a laptop. An NAS is Network Attached Storage. An NAS is like a USB harddrive, except it is accessed via ethernet, not USB. Ethernet is much faster than USB. (Before anyone else here nitpicks my examples, I am being basic to help the guy).

You are conflating streaming with "streaming". A streamer, in the Linn sense, is a device that accesses music files on an NAS and plays them back with the highest degree of sound quality. The result is better than any CD player. However, I have read many novices state there are CD players (and worse, DACs) which will better a DS. This is impossible as the benefit to using a Linn-type streamer is not the streamer itself. Source-first is at work here. There are many threads on this Lejonklou Forum explaining how to extract, store, and transmit data from a CD with the highest degree of musical integrity.

You need to read and understand all this if you plan on buying a Linn-type streamer, then assembling and installing everything yourself. If not, you are wasting your money. You need the best digital drive, ripping software, computer, and knowledge of proper settings, including a backup. You need to know what NAS units sound best. You specifically need a Netgear GS108, not an "ethernet switch" as most worsen the music. You need the best cables as well. I mentioned Blue Jeans Cable, they are one of the best, and the most consistent. If you see something listed here, like "Blue Jeans", do a search on this Forum and/or DuckDuckGo first. That should get you the answer before asking more questions.

My first real streamer was a Squeezebox I purchased twenty years ago. The advice and knowledge back then was mostly wrong as it was in its' infancy. Reading The Linnofil Super NAS! thread is a real eye-opener. Building my own NAS achieved a level of sound quality I hadn't suspected I could achieve. It becomes quite clear when you change the digital musical chain one item at a time, how important source-first is. This knowledge has helped me attain a better musical source from Spotify than I previously had from any CD player or my Squeezebox. I also use an Oppo BDP-105D to stream local files from an NAS or local computer files.

Which brings me to the title of this post. Just because you can "stream" with a Linn DS, doesn't mean you should. Your iPad "streams" Spotify to its' speakers. Your AppleTV "streams" your iPad to a DAC. You can "stream" local music files from a Mac computer through a Linn DS. However, this will not allow you to realize the full potential of the DS. If you purchase a used Linn DS, and don't have the knowledge to rip, store, and distribute the files at the highest level, be prepared for disappointment in sound quality. If you want to simply play Spotify Premium at a high level, there are hundreds of solutions; a DS may be a lavish misuse of resources.

Why don't you go to a Linn retailer? You made a mistake buying a used Troika. You need someone with skill and knowledge to get the best out of an LP12. Same goes for a Linn DS. A good Linn dealer is a value added product. Money spent there will get you the best sound for your money. Many dealers offer services where you drop off CDs and they rip them to your NAS. A demo can be done allowing you to hear the musical benefit.

If you want to learn how to setup your LP12 and network streaming yourself, more power to you, because that could allow you a further degree of excellence. However, it is a steep learning curve and could cost you more money in mistakes than if you went to a dealer in the first place.

There is a Linn event coming up as well as Spotify HIFI being released. It may be a good idea to wait and see (and hear) what the future holds for digital audio playback before spending more money right now.

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

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lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-07 14:16
Kalle05 wrote: 2021-03-06 22:16
lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-06 17:54 Have you compared with having volume normalisation switched off?
Listen to Bohemian rapsody at high volume and compare the settings...
I did just now and find it much worse with Volume normalisation switched on...
It's surprising to get such different results, which makes me curious whether both test scenarios are the same. The reason I ask is that volumio Spotify (and spotifyd on Debian) have their own config, while each Spotify control point appears to have its own config too... I can understand that the local, control app config applies if you're listening on the same devices as the control point, but which config takes precedence if you use the Spotify app on your phone to play on volumio? Does volume normalisation turned on in the app settings persist even if the Spotify player on volumio has normalisation configured off? I haven't checked if this is possible, but the same could be asked of stream quality, if the settings are different between devices...
I would hope that the player settings take priority, and the app settings only apply for local playback. I'm not clear how you'd check on volumio though to find out whether the volume is normalised, and/or what bit rate is going to the DAC... unless it's audibly obvious, of course.
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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

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tokenbrit wrote: 2021-03-08 04:47 It's surprising to get such different results, which makes me curious whether both test scenarios are the same. The reason I ask is that volumio Spotify (and spotifyd on Debian) have their own config, while each Spotify control point appears to have its own config too... I can understand that the local, control app config applies if you're listening on the same devices as the control point, but which config takes precedence if you use the Spotify app on your phone to play on volumio? Does volume normalisation turned on in the app settings persist even if the Spotify player on volumio has normalisation configured off? I haven't checked if this is possible, but the same could be asked of stream quality, if the settings are different between devices...
I would hope that the player settings take priority, and the app settings only apply for local playback. I'm not clear how you'd check on volumio though to find out whether the volume is normalised, and/or what bit rate is going to the DAC... unless it's audibly obvious, of course.
If I get it right the web player and Spotify apps integrated into third-party devices don’t currently use Loudness Normalization so it should work only on the desktop apps?

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Re: Apple TV to Akurate DS

Post by OscarH »

matthias wrote: 2021-03-08 06:45
tokenbrit wrote: 2021-03-08 04:47 It's surprising to get such different results, which makes me curious whether both test scenarios are the same. The reason I ask is that volumio Spotify (and spotifyd on Debian) have their own config, while each Spotify control point appears to have its own config too... I can understand that the local, control app config applies if you're listening on the same devices as the control point, but which config takes precedence if you use the Spotify app on your phone to play on volumio? Does volume normalisation turned on in the app settings persist even if the Spotify player on volumio has normalisation configured off? I haven't checked if this is possible, but the same could be asked of stream quality, if the settings are different between devices...
I would hope that the player settings take priority, and the app settings only apply for local playback. I'm not clear how you'd check on volumio though to find out whether the volume is normalised, and/or what bit rate is going to the DAC... unless it's audibly obvious, of course.
If I get it right the web player and Spotify apps integrated into third-party devices don’t currently use Loudness Normalization so it should work only on the desktop apps?

Matt
I know in my case (snakeoil OS) the player is governing. I know because when I last set one up I forgot to tick the “maximum quality” box and it was actually pretty awful...

I can use any device (iOS or Android or windows) as a control point via Spotify Connect.

But this player is running the Spotify desktop app and so my findings may not apply to players with a different Spotify integration/implementation.
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