Culprit - The phono stage?

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lindsayt
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by lindsayt »

BSilviuLuc wrote: 2021-06-15 11:35 Guys,

For sure I don't want to raise flames or provoke hard feelings. Just assuming that my lp12 is perfectly set, it is possible that my rather old Revox B250 to "strangulate" the musical performance?
Borrowing an amplifier shouldn't be much of an hassle.

The dealer assures me and he swears that my turntable was perfectly set. He said that he used all the tools to align and set the tonearm like Kinky tool.

Of course, I'm not 100% sure that my turntable is perfectly set. But, again, assuming that is, I'm wondering if is possible that my amplifier "strangulate" the musical performance. Could it be the bottleneck in my system?

Tendaberry wrote: 2021-06-15 11:46 It's certainly possible, that the Revox holds the performance of your LP12 back. In your shoes I would definitely try to borrow a more musical amp, just to be sure.
Is the bounce perfect on your LP12?
In the context of this forum - which is founded on source first, which makes a huge amount of sense for vinyl sources whichever way you look at it - it doesn't make sense that the Revox would be fine for the Rega and then instantly magically bad for the LP12.

Even though the Revox is not the best amplifier ever made, it should still be easily good enough to tell which vinyl source is the better, as well as telling the sort of magnitude of the differences between them.

Revox were not some mickey mouse company. They made good audio equipment.

I started my hi-fi life with a Creek CAS4040 amplifier. This has always been good enough to determine the type and magnitude of the differences between different turntables, arms and cartridges. If my humble ultra budget Creek is good enough there's an extremely high chance that your Revox will be good enough too.

Coming to think of it, I've never come across a situation ever, where the amplifier wasn't good enough to tell the type and magnitude of the differences between vinyl sources.
A big reason for that being that differences between vinyl sources are so fundamental to following the tune. Pitch accuracy, pitch stability, timbre, dynamics, clarity in terms of it sounding like real people playing a musical composition on real instruments together in a band or orchestra.


Defender wrote: 2021-06-15 11:03 hey lindsay its obviously a nice balance to have someone who has a different opinion. But your recommendations have an issue you mostly compare new bought products (Linn Majik LP12) to used products for the reason of value for money. That is not a fair apples to apples comparison. You can either compare used products to each other or new products to each other.

In this case you have the opinion the new bought LP12 should be sold even though everyone else has the opinion that the LP12 is a musical and capable device.
I have the experience the LP12 performance can vary a lot depending on how good the setup was made and I think that is also the problem here.
I wouldnt recommend to try a new amp I would rather first try to improve the LP12 setup. There is lots of information here in this forum. As a turntable owner without a capable dealer close buy it is important to somehow develop own skills. An investment into a Linn jig is not much more than a pair of Linn interconnects but can change your LP12 experience completely. Some other tools are cheap on Amazon or Ebay like a Linn Tonarm alignment tool or a tonarm hight tool.
On the new vs used equipment thing, this is a debate that I've had with other people on other forums.

The way that I see it is that hi-fi equipment is so reliable and so long lasting that it isn't like buying a used car.

Also turntables and speakers are simple and easy to repair devices.

And that whether an item is new or not is relatively unimportant compared to how much it costs to get it and how it sounds. With additional considerations for many buyers (but not me) on how big it is and how it looks.

I see it as entirely fair game if one enthusiast has decide to buy new equipment and another comes along with stuff that anyone could have bought for similar money off the Internet to compare against it. With the foundation of that bake-off being how much each of them paid and how it sounds.

If the new stuff wins the bake-off then that indicates one buying route. If the used stuff wins then that's another route.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by BSilviuLuc »

In november 2019 I had a Rega Exact cart mounted on my Rega Planar 3, and indeed the difference in sound quality was huge.(Having as a reference Rega Carbon cart).
January 2021, I bought my LP12. So basically there's more than one year time gap between the two. Unfortunately I do not have the Exact cart anymore, only the Carbon. But in the meantime, maybe, just maybe, my amplifier went astray.
The thing that makes me believe this is that I tried a different phono stage, and made no difference in sound quality for either turntables. So I believe that somehow my amplifier is not able to cope with the phono's output.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by lindsayt »

BSilviuLuc wrote: 2021-06-15 20:37 In november 2019 I had a Rega Exact cart mounted on my Rega Planar 3, and indeed the difference in sound quality was huge.(Having as a reference Rega Carbon cart).
January 2021, I bought my LP12. So basically there's more than one year time gap between the two. Unfortunately I do not have the Exact cart anymore, only the Carbon. But in the meantime, maybe, just maybe, my amplifier went astray.
The thing that makes me believe this is that I tried a different phono stage, and made no difference in sound quality for either turntables. So I believe that somehow my amplifier is not able to cope with the phono's output.
If you tried 2 phono amplification devices and the sound quality was equal on both of them, then it makes sense to keep the cheapest and sell the more expensive one.
I've had plenty of bake-offs where 2 components (including bake-offs with phono stages) have sounded equally good and where the winner then comes down purely to cost.

What do you mean by not being "able to cope"?

Phono stages - in my experience - do not have a higher output in terms of voltage than a CD player. This means that there's pretty much no chance of an amplifier being saturated by a phono stage and therefore not being able to cope from a maximum input voltage point of view.

If you mean that your amplifier is not able to cope with some dazzling, amazing good output from the Majik LP12 that isn't there on the Rega, then that makes no sense whatsoever. The sort of sonic compromises that you get with a really bad amplifier compared to a World Class amplifier are different in nature to the sonic compromises that you get with different turntables, arms, cartridges, turntable supports. This means that with a really bad amplifier you can still easily hear the differences between vinyl sources.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by PaulC »

BSilviuLuc what kind of furniture is your LP12 sitting on?
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by BSilviuLuc »

PaulC wrote: 2021-06-17 06:26 BSilviuLuc what kind of furniture is your LP12 sitting on?
Hi Paul,

https://www.hifiracks.co.uk/collections ... 6396103742
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by BSilviuLuc »

Guys,

I mounted my adikt cart on my Rega tt. Nothing, the same old sound as with Carbon cart. Now, my ears are broken or my amplifier is not able to produce a different sound? I will try to borrow an amplifier and see what will happen.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by Tendaberry »

BSilviuLuc wrote: 2021-06-17 09:24 Guys,

I mounted my adikt cart on my Rega tt. Nothing, the same old sound as with Carbon cart. Now, my ears are broken or my amplifier is not able to produce a different sound? I will try to borrow an amplifier and see what will happen.
There should be a pretty big difference between the Carbon and the Adikt. Are both cartridges the same height, or did you have to use spacers on the arm?
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by BSilviuLuc »

Tendaberry wrote: 2021-06-17 09:52
BSilviuLuc wrote: 2021-06-17 09:24 Guys,

I mounted my adikt cart on my Rega tt. Nothing, the same old sound as with Carbon cart. Now, my ears are broken or my amplifier is not able to produce a different sound? I will try to borrow an amplifier and see what will happen.
There should be a pretty big difference between the Carbon and the Adikt. Are both cartridges the same height, or did you have to use spacers on the arm?
2mm spacers
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by PaulC »

BSilviuLuc, those shelves look quite heavy mate, are they? I've found the LP12 to be quite sensitive to the furniture it's placed on. I believe Linn recommend lightweight rigid furniture. Some of the experts on this forum are more qualified than myself to comment on this, but if you have an IKEA store close by get hold of a Lack table (they cost very little). Make sure the legs are tightly screwed on and that it's placed stably on the floor and try the LP12 on that. It might produce an improvement.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

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BSilviuLuc wrote: 2021-06-17 09:24 Guys,

I mounted my adikt cart on my Rega tt. Nothing, the same old sound as with Carbon cart. Now, my ears are broken or my amplifier is not able to produce a different sound? I will try to borrow an amplifier and see what will happen.
Or option 3, you have a defective Adikt. I have mounted a number of Adikts on Regas and there is a quite big improvement over a Carbon. I have had differences of opinion among Rega owners as to whether the Adikt or the Exakt was preferable.
One who went to an Adikt because of the lower cost and less hassle of stylus replacement went back to the Exakt 2 when the Adikt stylus wore out as he preferred the sound. However, most stayed with an Adikt once they had experienced it.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by BSilviuLuc »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-17 17:20
BSilviuLuc wrote: 2021-06-17 09:24 Guys,

I mounted my adikt cart on my Rega tt. Nothing, the same old sound as with Carbon cart. Now, my ears are broken or my amplifier is not able to produce a different sound? I will try to borrow an amplifier and see what will happen.
Or option 3, you have a defective Adikt. I have mounted a number of Adikts on Regas and there is a quite big improvement over a Carbon. I have had differences of opinion among Rega owners as to whether the Adikt or the Exakt was preferable.
One who went to an Adikt because of the lower cost and less hassle of stylus replacement went back to the Exakt 2 when the Adikt stylus wore out as he preferred the sound. However, most stayed with an Adikt once they had experienced it.
Hi Thomas,

Very unlikely. My dealer offered me a brand new stylus for my Adikt. Do you think that the cartridge body might be faulty?
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by V.A.MKD »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-17 17:20 I have mounted a number of Adikts on Regas and there is a quite big improvement over a Carbon. I have had differences of opinion among Rega owners as to whether the Adikt or the Exakt was preferable.
Hi ThomasOK,
What is your personal feeling (can you live with) ... about Rega & Adikt combination.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by ThomasOK »

V.A.MKD wrote: 2021-06-17 17:28
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-17 17:20 I have mounted a number of Adikts on Regas and there is a quite big improvement over a Carbon. I have had differences of opinion among Rega owners as to whether the Adikt or the Exakt was preferable.
Hi ThomasOK,
What is your personal feeling (can you live with) ... about Rega & Adikt combination.
I haven't directly A/B compared two identical Rega tables with Adikt2/3 vs. Exakt2 but I do rather like the sound of the Adikt on a Rega Planar 3 or Planar 6. I just sold the later combination to a customer because the Planar 6/Exakt2 combination is so heavily back ordered that the only way to get him one in a reasonable time was to buy in a Planar 6/Ania, pull the Ania off and install an Adikt3. He didn't have the right phono stage for a low output MC so we credited him and put the Ania back in stock.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by V.A.MKD »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-17 17:36
V.A.MKD wrote: 2021-06-17 17:28
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-17 17:20 I have mounted a number of Adikts on Regas and there is a quite big improvement over a Carbon. I have had differences of opinion among Rega owners as to whether the Adikt or the Exakt was preferable.
Hi ThomasOK,
What is your personal feeling (can you live with) ... about Rega & Adikt combination.
I haven't directly A/B compared two identical Rega tables with Adikt2/3 vs. Exakt2 but I do rather like the sound of the Adikt on a Rega Planar 3 or Planar 6. I just sold the later combination to a customer because the Planar 6/Exakt2 combination is so heavily back ordered that the only way to get him one in a reasonable time was to buy in a Planar 6/Ania, pull the Ania off and install an Adikt3. He didn't have the right phono stage for a low output MC so we credited him and put the Ania back in stock.
Thank you Thomas for your answer, that is what I want to hear ...
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by u252agz »

lindsayt wrote: 2021-06-15 19:18

Even though the Revox is not the best amplifier ever made, it should still be easily good enough to tell which vinyl source is the better, as well as telling the sort of magnitude of the differences between them.

Revox were not some mickey mouse company. They made good audio equipment.

I started my hi-fi life with a Creek CAS4040 amplifier. This has always been good enough to determine the type and magnitude of the differences between different turntables, arms and cartridges. If my humble ultra budget Creek is good enough there's an extremely high chance that your Revox will be good enough too.

I agree - I am using my old Creek 4040 S2 as a temporary stand in for my Lejonklou Tundra Monos - and my both my KDS/2 ( Spotify) and LP 12 ( Radikal, Kore, Ekos SE/1, Adikt) sound just great using Lejonklou Sataun Monos and 242s. So good that now I dont think that I am missing much with the downgrade.

OK - there will be undoubtedly be a big jump when I put back the Tundras ( I did this switch once before when the Tundras were being upgraded) but, the music is still really musical and enjoyable with the Creek.

Easily good enough to pick up differences upstream in my opinion.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by ThomasOK »

BSilviuLuc wrote: 2021-06-17 17:27
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-17 17:20
BSilviuLuc wrote: 2021-06-17 09:24 Guys,

I mounted my adikt cart on my Rega tt. Nothing, the same old sound as with Carbon cart. Now, my ears are broken or my amplifier is not able to produce a different sound? I will try to borrow an amplifier and see what will happen.
Or option 3, you have a defective Adikt. I have mounted a number of Adikts on Regas and there is a quite big improvement over a Carbon. I have had differences of opinion among Rega owners as to whether the Adikt or the Exakt was preferable.
One who went to an Adikt because of the lower cost and less hassle of stylus replacement went back to the Exakt 2 when the Adikt stylus wore out as he preferred the sound. However, most stayed with an Adikt once they had experienced it.
Hi Thomas,

Very unlikely. My dealer offered me a brand new stylus for my Adikt. Do you think that the cartridge body might be faulty?
Sorry I missed this. Generally the cartridge body is either good or bad, with bad being a channel out or intermittent. So it is much more likely it would be a stylus problem. However, a bad body, while rare, is not impossible. I had a cartridge here, not a Linn but a brand we carry and sell a lot of, where the coils measured just fine but it would occasionally make a crackling or popping noise while playing the record. This was the case with different styli which worked fine on another body. So there obviously was something wrong with the body itself. On the other hand it was an induced magnet type of cartridge where the coils and magnet are in the body. On a moving magnet only the coils would be in the body.
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Re: Culprit - The phono stage?

Post by BSilviuLuc »

Guys,

As I'm painting the walls of my listening room, I had to move my system in the bedroom.
Is like I bought a brand new system and I couldn't help myself and just smile uncontrollably. I have no acoustic treatment in my bedroom, but since it is more crowded, I don't have (as much) echo as I have in my listening room. The bass got more pronounced and detailed. The highs are not "in my face" anymore. All of a sudden I can feel the difference in sound quality compared to my Rega P3. A lot of details and warmth. And for the first time, at high volumes, I don't feel like the artist "is screaming". It sings beautifully.
For sure, I will invest some $$$ for acoustic treatment for my listening room. I can't wait to have a Lingo or Radikal installed in the future.
I could have the Lingo 4 installed by the end of the year. Or I could wait for 2 years and get a Radikal. I will think about it.

Thanks so much to everyone for your patience and insights. It meant a lot. ^_^
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