Source upgrade require speaker tuning?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-02-28 00:36

Suppose the speakers are positioned correctly (tune dem), is an amp, source, rack, cable upgrade require a re-tuning of the speakers?

Same question going active from a passive setup...

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-03-05 18:56

No feedback 8)
Do this forum really lack this competense, hehe

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-03-05 23:24

I have avoided answering because I find it difficult to answer... :|

My feeling is that the electronics shouldn't affect placement, but in reality when I do big changes to a system (but the speakers remain unchanged), I can retune and sometimes find a slightly different speaker position.

I have still not made my mind up about how this actually works. I just think: Big changes - recheck speaker position.

I would very much like to hear other peoples' view on this. What is yours, Music Lover?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-03-06 10:50

lejonklou wrote:My feeling is that the electronics shouldn't affect placement, but in reality when I do big changes to a system (but the speakers remain unchanged), I can retune and sometimes find a slightly different speaker position.

Exactly why I asked in the first place...

Assuming the speaker were perfect positioned, a better pre should not affect the positioning.
Still, you can sometimes after a source/control/amp upgrade, tune them better, strange. :|

But I never tried putting back the old unit, just checking IF the new speaker position actually WAS better also using the old unit..
Have you?
That test should be really interesting!

IF the new position REALLY is better, is the conclusion that for best speaker position, you should use optimum input signal??? :?

And...what about speaker positioning passive vs. active?
Same or not...
What’s you experience re this?

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2007-03-06 13:52

Everytime I made a change to the electronics I did a re-tune of the speakers, but found out that the optimum position still remains the same.

But it could be that someone needs to do the placement more exactly after a change, means: It was exact enough for the old stuff, but not sufficient for the new one!?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-03-06 19:14

sommerfee, what is the smallest distant you moving the speakers tuning them?

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2007-03-07 09:39

Music Lover wrote:sommerfee, what is the smallest distant you moving the speakers tuning them?

2mm

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-03-07 10:50

Perfect!
I try doing this as well and this is easy (but time consuming) on depth and side but during toe in adjustment - it's difficult to get all the mm correct.
Do you have the inner front speaker corner at same position or the middle of the baffle?
I also understand a few people having other corners fixed...

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-03-07 14:17

Music Lover wrote:what about speaker positioning passive vs. active?

Active and passive require different speaker positions. This must be due to the shelving of the bass (the lowest bass is amplified) in Linn's aktiv filters.

But if the frequency response in the bass is changed dramatically (as with the aktiv filter) and this causes a radical change of position, maybe a tiny change in bass level/quality (as for example with a change of preamp) can cause a tiny change of speaker position?

What do you think?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-03-07 15:24

Just trying to be the devils advocate here so excuse me, no offence intended. :mrgreen:
Why should bass level affect tune dem leading to a readjustment on the speakers?
So if you increase volume on the Pre you need to...(you get it)
And - when you change the active card settings, you need to get back moving the speakers...
Not sure this make sense.

Conclusion;
1/ you should really have the option to move mid/treble/bass speakers individually.

So for a full range speaker, positioning is always a compromise...

2/ The best is then small speakers as Katan and a sub so both can be positioned optimal 8)

This is really interesting as it ends up in a discussion WHAT affects the tune - don't we have other forum friends with input on this matter?

So If an upgrade not affecting the speaker position (if it's done correctly first time) - why should it be needed going active?

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2007-03-07 18:39

I think you misunderstood Fredrik, he was talking about the bass level in reference to the rest of the frequency range. In Aktiv speakers Linn add some equalization to the low frequencies to extend the bass lower than is possible passively. If you look at the specs on the Ninka and Espek you will see the frequency response goes 9 or 10 Hz lower Aktiv. This means that the speaker has a different balance and therefore does need a somewhat different position for best performance (although it is generally not radically different).

In my experience if the speakers are positioned for best tune improvements in other equipment such as source or preamp do not change the optimum speaker position. It is possible, however, when a large improvement is made - as from a Kairn to a Klimax Kontrol or from virtually any cartridge to an Akiva - that since you can now hear the tune much more distinctly you may be able to more easily position the speakers accurately. This could lead to a slightly different position. My own experience is that 1/4" differences (between 2 and 3mm) or even smaller are definitely audible so I try to be quite precise when setting them up.

I don't believe it is a good idea to be able to position drive units individually (although some expensive American speakers do allow this) as you are affecting phase response and frequency balance through the crossover region when you do this. If a speaker is properly designed the positions of the drivers relative to each other as well as to the cabinet are an important part of the design and changing them would require changing the crossover and the cabinet. Properly designed speakers put out a sound that is in balance and tuneful at your ear at typical listening distances in real rooms. On these speakers setting the position for best tune is really optimizing all the drivers at once.

The question of full range vs. small speaker with subwoofer is one that has been and will be with us for some time. I have friends who have gone the mini-monitor/subwoofer route and have quite nice sounding systems. As I own ATC SCM100ASLs it is pretty obvious I have gone the full range route. The advantage of small/sub combos is that you can put a good sub in the best position for deep and tuneful bass response and the small speaker in the best position for recreating the tune and those positions may be different (some would say this is true regardless of the size of the main speaker and I don't necessarily disagree). Also small speakers have, by their nature, fewer problems with diffraction effects and with cabinet resonances. On the other side is the poor musical capabilities of most subwoofers. There are VERY few subwoofers that allow a proper blend between the sub and main speaker. In my experience, only the REL subs really seem to extend the bass without impairing the sound of the main speakers. Having owned Aktiv Isobariks and active ATC100s I have yet to find a small/sub combo that lets the music flow the way these two do. And although REL would say I still need a sub for the best low bass performance, I have to admit I haven't tried it yet.

Pediatrik · Post by **Pediatrik** » 2007-03-07 20:38

sommerfee wrote:2mm

How do you guys manage this practically? I have a pair of Keltiks and because of the size and weight I have difficulties adjusting the speakers within millimeters!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2007-03-08 00:07

Pediatrik wrote:
sommerfee wrote:2mm
How do you guys manage this practically? I have a pair of Keltiks and because of the size and weight I have difficulties adjusting the speakers within millimeters!

Admittedly it is difficult to do with Keltiks or other large speakers. I am fortunate enough to have wood floors in my living room and using Linn Skeets I find it possible to move my 145Lb speakers in pretty small increments. It is indeed much harder with carpet as I found when I recently fine tuned a customer's Keltiks.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-03-08 11:30

ThomasOK wrote:
Pediatrik wrote:
sommerfee wrote:2mm
How do you guys manage this practically? I have a pair of Keltiks and because of the size and weight I have difficulties adjusting the speakers within millimeters!
Admittedly it is difficult to do with Keltiks or other large speakers. I am fortunate enough to have wood floors in my living room and using Linn Skeets I find it possible to move my 145Lb speakers in pretty small increments. It is indeed much harder with carpet as I found when I recently fine tuned a customer's Keltiks.

I also use Skeets and these can be used on EVERY floor (even carpet) during tuning.
I push them with my hand or foot, gently...VERY gently. Good to be two persons, one moving one checking the distance.
When you found the best place, try with/without Skeets :D
Thomas - 145Lb :shock: :shock:
What is THAT??

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2007-03-08 12:36

ThomasOK wrote:I think you misunderstood Fredrik, he was talking about the bass level in reference to the rest of the frequency range. In Aktiv speakers Linn add some equalization to the low frequencies to extend the bass lower than is possible passively. If you look at the specs on the Ninka and Espek you will see the frequency response goes 9 or 10 Hz lower Aktiv. This means that the speaker has a different balance and therefore does need a somewhat different position for best performance (although it is generally not radically different).

I understood that, but what comes out of that is that each time you change the settings on the active cards you have to retune (move) the speakers.
And also, playing music with different EQ mixing, the speakers has to be moved.
So to summarize, I'm not sure that's make sense.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-03-08 13:00

I don't think it has to do with the level of the bass, but rather with the frequency response and the Q value.

If this is actually the case, it does not matter if you change the level of the woofer (on the aktiv card) or if you play a different record. The only aktiv setting that could matter is the low frequency rolloff setting on Keltiks and subwoofers.

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2007-03-08 13:54

Music Lover wrote:Perfect!
Do you have the inner front speaker corner at same position or the middle of the baffle?

I must confess that I don't know this. After finding the best toe in I simply check the distance from the wall again. Yes, all of this is time consuming but since my wife is very good at putting the thumb up or down (while I'm moving the speakers or changing weight/anti skating of the LP12 or...) we are a very good team. 8)

Pediatrik wrote:
sommerfee wrote:2mm
How do you guys manage this practically? I have a pair of Keltiks and because of the size and weight I have difficulties adjusting the speakers within millimeters!

Very easy: I do not own Keltiks :lol:

And I think that usually one don't need to do this such exactly. In my experience one needs to do it more precisely when:

- you have a smaller room (then before)
- you have a bigger speaker (then before)
- you have gear playing more "details", eg. when changed Kairn/Klout with Exotik/2250

Usually +-5mm are ok, at least for getting my wife (and me) satisfied

Pediatrik · Post by **Pediatrik** » 2007-03-08 17:39

sommerfee wrote: Very easy: I do not own Keltiks :lol:

And I think that usually one don't need to do this such exactly. In my experience one needs to do it more precisely when:

- you have a bigger speaker (then before)

Well, I used to have Keilidhs (which my girlfriend nowadays find "small and cute", when she sees them at our friends house), so I definetly have a bigger speaker than before! They are placed in a room with wooden floors and I do use Skeets. So far I have been adjusting them within distances of 1 cm.

Except from beeing big and heavy, the Keltiks really are a challenge (at least for me) when it comes to positioning. I regard myself as a Tune-dem novis and I am a little afraid that I might be missing out a bit of the potential of the Keltiks. The first position I found was 41 cm from the wall with 1 cm toe-in. After a bit of pushing and shoving I now have found a position closer to the wall (22 cm), still with 1 cm toe-in, but with the loudspeakers a bit more narrow than before.

Now they are really starting to sound in tune, but I am certain that there is more to gain! Maybe it's in the millimeters...

Post by **lejonklou** » 2007-04-14 00:06

I have made some more experiments with this.

It seems that in some room-speaker combinations, the optimal position is very sharply defined. In such cases, small movements around the optimal position result in dramatic changes (likely due to strong bass reflections) and a change of electronics (e.g. amplifiers) do not result in a different optimal position.

In other room-speaker combinations, the optimal position is not so sharply defined. There might even be several sub-optimal positions rather close to the current optimal position. In such cases, even rather small changes in the system can cause the optimal position to change.

I have found one case where a redirection of several cables in the system resulted in a different optimal position a couple of cm from the previous one. In another, a change of preamplifier resulted in a slightly different optimal position. In a third system, the optimal position remained the same although both phono preamplifier and power amplifier were changed.