Thank-you to the moderation team for moving my post into this thread. I agree that it makes sense to discuss the area that I raised in this thread instead of the thread about the iconic turntable youtube video.
lejonklou wrote: ↑2022-12-23 20:24
OK, I’ll give it a go.
I think the most likely thing going on is that we listen for different things. And therefore we mean different things when we claim that one reproduction is more tuneful than another.
Sometimes the only way to find out for sure whether this is the case is to listen together, in the same room, and compare our favourite machines. Judging clips works up to a point, but I find it benefits greatly from prior common in-room experiences. Then we know what the other person is listening for.
Another possibility, one that I find less likely, is that I haven’t listened properly to the turntables you do find the best. And one or several of them actually are better than an LP12. Now that would be
fantastic, as I would immediately sell the very expensive turntable I have at home and get a better one for (I hope) far less money. I would absolutely LOVE this!
EDIT:
On that bake-off on the PFM forum, what did others think? Was there consensus around your findings or did some think the opposite? Which were the winners and what did the majority think?
I'm conscious that when I'm reporting experiences that differ very widely from that of others, that I should take some effort to describe the nature of the experiences in some detail.
EG saying that I found an LP12 with Basik LVX more tuneful than Rega Planar 3 is a vague statement.
Saying that I found Hanging Around from Stranglers Rattus Norvegicus album as having the life sucked out of it (when played at the same volume) on the Rega compared to the Linn is less vague. And that there was some crudeness imposed by the Rega when compared to the Linn gives a bit more substance to the description. So that on Haunts of Ancient Peace from Common One by Van Morrison, when the whole band were playing together the instruments sounded more merged into one amorphous blob on the Rega and less easy to follow each individual instrument at will.
I agree that listening together is useful. Because it allows 2 or more people to hear exactly the same things - which takes one set of variables out of the equation. And it allows the 2 people to have a frank discussion about what they heard.
Everyone that attended the Richard Dunn hosted bake-off in 2008 - and reported their experience - agreed on the outcome. This included Zener, the owner of the LP12 when he was coaxed into giving his report.
There was a lot of disagreement about the results of that bake-off from people that didn't attend it.
tokenbrit wrote: ↑2022-12-23 21:00
How reliably setup was each turntable - were they each optimally fettled? Not saying they weren't; just asking... It certainly seems from discussions here that the LP12 is very setup dependent - I don't know about the others in the bake-off or your own tests. Some may be easier to setup & perform more consistently tunefully across comparisons to lead to your experiences & conclusion.
From that 2008 bake-off, Zener reported that his LP12 had been serviced by a Linn dealer 6 months prior to the bake-off.
I can't remember which dealer he said it was. Zener lived in Essex in England at the time.
tpetsch wrote: ↑2022-12-23 21:40
lindsayt wrote: ↑2022-12-23 16:43
A big question I would like to ask you guys is:
Why do you think my reported experience of the Linn LP12 and Rega Planar 3 vs Cherry Picked A N Other (including Japanese direct drives) differs so much to yours?
What do you think is going on here?
Feel free to be very open and honest here. Give me both barrels, if you want. Or alternatively, feel free to do a brainstorm of possible reasons that explain the gulf in this matter.
In a nutshell many of us define & hear the tune differently.
There are sounds and effects & then there's the tune.
The tune is the thing that transports us, draws us into the music and grabs our attention, resulting in the gear itself somewhat disappearing, if I find my mind wandering and thinking about other things other than the music playing right in front of me somethings gone wrong tune wise.
If attention turns away from the tune and onto to other things like soundstage, space around the instruments or how in my latest A/B I now notice cowbell etc. in the background I didn't notice before, things can start to go down the rabbit hole.
Thing is, all we can really surmise about any master tape/master is that some very talented and professional singers and musicians came together and spent a lot of time and effort to create a musical experience, the final product should move us in an emotional way, it should be tuneful/musical -because their pros and do this for a living- and we should be able to make sense of the artists creative intentions and more tuneful gear helps us to further & more deeply make even more sense of it all.
What we can't surmise is how much space around the instruments there was in the recording studio the day the music was recorded or how big the soundstage was or if there even was a soundstage, ..or a studio? Or how much cowbell, etc. the band wanted mixed down to the master, did they mix in the cowbell as an overall balanced accent or intend to make it stand out as an obvious presence to the listener? We simply can't know how the performance intends to portray these sounds & effects or in what direction we should attempt to adjust for them in our systems because we have no way of knowing how much or little of these things actually exist on the master. ...But what we do know is how Miles Davis can make the hairs on your arm stand up when he plays the trumpet.
One could argue that the more an end user or manufacturer focus's on attempting to "improve" upon these unknowable sound & effects quantities the more they may find their gear moving away from the core fundamental tune / musical performance itself.
Happy holidays all..
Over the years I attended a number of bake-offs and hi-fi events with Richard Dunn. At every single one we would agree on the nature of the sonic differences between the equipment we were evaluating. The difference was that he'd tend to evaluate and process and be ready to verbally report quicker than I usually would, Which is fair enough, given that he had vastly more experience than me of sighted and unsighted AB (and ABBA) demos.
Furthermore, I've found there to be a generally good concensus at the bake-offs I've attended. With - on average - 90% of people reporting the same sonic differences (with me agreeing with the 90% on all occasions so far).
When I do listening tests, especially when with other people, I try to relax and let the music wash over me and let the equipment speak for itself.
markiteight wrote: ↑2022-12-23 22:08
That's a really excellent summary of the reasons behind the Tune Method, tpetsch. Thanks for that. I would add that while the degree to which a listener is drawn into the music can be an indicator of issues with a system's ability to play the tune, it is itself not a reliable method of evaluating the tune. Attention to the music can be affected by other factors that are difficult or impossible to control in an A-B comparison, leading to an inconsistent outcome. But if an evaluator finds their attention drifting more during one phase of a comparison, it is entirely reasonable to confirm whether or not that is caused by a poor musical performance using more consistent and reliable methods.
I think it's entirely possible the methods of evaluations are where differences of opinion occur. I feel like we are all in general agreement about
what the tune means, it's how we get there where our roads diverge. Technique can be personal, too. What works for one person might not work for another. I myself have struggled a bit over the years finding the evaluation method that works best for me.
Fredrik's suggestion that listening together resonated with me too. I learned a lot about his methods, and what he's listening for, while playing music alongside Fredrik. I also discovered some fun, new music.
That's a good point about attention drifting.
For a given volume, with the Rega Planar 3 I tended to find that my emotional response to what I was hearing was that the music was something going on at the other end of the room, where the speakers were.
With a better vinyl source, at the same volume I'd be drawn into the music more. More engulfed by it. More pulled into it and involved with it.
The very best, most dynamically recorded albums, such as Dire Straits Communique would still tend to draw me into the music with the Rega Planar 3. Albums like Mondo Bongo by the Boomtown Rats would be more of a litmus test.
Having said that, there has beent other times I've found my attention drifting during evaluations because of non music and non system dependent things. It''s those episodes where I've needed more time before feeling comfortable reporting my findings.
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I think that overall, getting together in the same room at the same time to evaluate equipment and talk about what we heard is the best way to solve the mystery as to why my reported findings are so different to those of others on this forum.
However, geographical realities may kick in here. It's not like we're next door neighbours. So that in the meantime, all we can do is to speculate as to the reasons for the reported differences.
I do think that the discussion in the last few posts has been interesting and useful. And I'd like to thank you (plural) for expressing your thoughts in this matter.