Streaming service

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PetterS
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Re: Streaming service

Post by PetterS »

Two more clips with different musical challenges before I lift the veil and reveal the results. The order can or could not be the same.

Test 3
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fgsmwvnz9v6a4 ... A.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zrx9e5n4q2qem ... B.mp4?dl=0

Test 4
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/is64sk1ius1au ... A.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fqstaoxm5izi ... B.mp4?dl=0
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Re: Streaming service

Post by Spannko »

I’m going for A followed by B.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by David Neel »

Test 3: both sound as if they are being played through a thick fog and several layers of blankets.
Test 4: almost as bad.
None of the clips made me want to listen further, despite a sense that there might have been good music in there somewhere.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by Charlie1 »

PetterS wrote: 2021-04-22 16:27 Ready for a test of the debated streaming services? The set-up is: fiber to Media Converter, MC to Router; Router to Switch Netgear GS108v4, Switch to Primare NP5 (all ethernet cables are Premium Belden 1303E CATSNAKE Cat6a), Primare5 to Primare DAC NP30 conn. w. Linn digital 75 ohm, Np30 to Boazu w. Linn Silver, Boazu to NINKA w polymer base conn. w. Lejonklou soldered split K400. The streams are started with phone (S10e) with native apps through Prisma app, and recorded with the same phone. A tips is to download the files before listening. Its windy outside and a dog in the house which can be heard by the sharp-eared (all of you with other words...)

Rond 1
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y4jz9dx2smjib ... A.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/31xl3zxbjycxo ... B.mp4?dl=0

Rond 2
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8kl0n48ywpker ... A.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rgdifjyd6thh3 ... B.mp4?dl=0
Deliberately not looked at other posts yet but defo prefer B in Rond 1 as I hear more sense of rhythm in the music. Found it harder on Rond 2 but again B seemed to be giving more.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2021-04-23 11:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by Charlie1 »

PetterS wrote: 2021-04-22 21:47 Two more clips with different musical challenges before I lift the veil and reveal the results. The order can or could not be the same.

Test 3
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fgsmwvnz9v6a4 ... A.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zrx9e5n4q2qem ... B.mp4?dl=0

Test 4
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/is64sk1ius1au ... A.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fqstaoxm5izi ... B.mp4?dl=0
Defo prefer A on test 3 - biggest gap so far for me.
Prefer A on test 4 but not so obvious as test 3.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by Charlie1 »

David Neel wrote: 2021-04-22 22:28 Test 3: both sound as if they are being played through a thick fog and several layers of blankets.
Test 4: almost as bad.
None of the clips made me want to listen further, despite a sense that there might have been good music in there somewhere.
I don't think we should be too harsh on members that have shared their clips. It's been a long time since this thread began, so I don't recall what it was like, but I think it's quite brave to share system clips with strangers. And the main thing is to get feedback on which is better, A or B. That way we all learn and hopefully improve our systems - I sound like beck now :)

Also, I'm not familiar with either piece of music so they might sound a bit shut in on the actual recording. For what it's worth, I enjoyed clip 3.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by Whatsmynaim »

PetterS wrote: 2021-04-22 21:47 Two more clips with different musical challenges before I lift the veil and reveal the results. The order can or could not be the same.

Test 3
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fgsmwvnz9v6a4 ... A.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zrx9e5n4q2qem ... B.mp4?dl=0

Test 4
A: https://www.dropbox.com/s/is64sk1ius1au ... A.mp4?dl=0
B: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fqstaoxm5izi ... B.mp4?dl=0
Rond 1: A - No doubt!
Rond 2: A - Tricky, but enjoyed the bass play more on A.

Test 3: A - Found B more engaging at first. Then closed my eyes while listening and A won.
Test 4: A - The rhythm is more enjoyable. B is a bit rushed perhaps?
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Re: Streaming service

Post by David Neel »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-22 22:46
David Neel wrote: 2021-04-22 22:28 Test 3: both sound as if they are being played through a thick fog and several layers of blankets.
Test 4: almost as bad.
None of the clips made me want to listen further, despite a sense that there might have been good music in there somewhere.
I don't think we should be too harsh on members that have shared their clips. It's been a long time since this thread began, so I don't recall what it was like, but I think it's quite brave to share system clips with strangers. And the main thing is to get feedback on which is better, A or B. That way we all learn and hopefully improve our systems - I sound like beck now :)

Also, I'm not familiar with either piece of music so they might sound a bit shut in on the actual recording. For what it's worth, I enjoyed clip 3.
Hi Charlie1 and PetterS,

I wasn't intending to be hard on members sharing clips, particularly since I've also submitted clips! Just honest about my reactions... so I'm sorry if that appeared rude. I'm really interested in which streaming services are most musical, because my past experience says that my LSNAS is better than the Tidal trial I had. But that is a few years ago, and I'm open to revisiting the streaming services.

My experience with digital in any form is not altogether positive. I've just been listening to the (digitally remastered vinyl) reissue of Barbirolli's Brahms 2, and as much as love his interpretation, it's a relief to get back to Klemperer in an original release. So when I say that those clips didn't want to make me listen further, I meant it in the sense that life is too short to listen to music which doesn't engage us - as to which was better, that is irrelevant to me if neither are adequately musical.

Again, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is not a judgment on PetterS, whose thoughtful contributions I value.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by Whatsmynaim »

u252agz wrote: 2021-04-22 13:24 It drives me up the wall at times and makes me think that perhaps a good CD player , removed from any network/streaming issues may be the answer to stress free digital music. If my Marantz CD 6007 is anything to go by, a high end CD player could be the final solution .
CD is less stressful till you start fiddling with the setup and noticing EVERYTHING matters.
I've spent countless hours on getting my Oppo to actually play music and we all know Beck has as well with his NAD.
I'm not trying to crush your hope and dreams here, but yeah. It is what it is. :)
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Re: Streaming service

Post by beck »

Regarding test 3 and 4 by PetterS I prefer the A versions.

Thank you for sharing your clips with us.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-22 22:46
David Neel wrote: 2021-04-22 22:28 Test 3: both sound as if they are being played through a thick fog and several layers of blankets.
Test 4: almost as bad.
None of the clips made me want to listen further, despite a sense that there might have been good music in there somewhere.
I don't think we should be too harsh on members that have shared their clips. It's been a long time since this thread began, so I don't recall what it was like, but I think it's quite brave to share system clips with strangers. And the main thing is to get feedback on which is better, A or B. That way we all learn and hopefully improve our systems - I sound like beck now :)

Also, I'm not familiar with either piece of music so they might sound a bit shut in on the actual recording. For what it's worth, I enjoyed clip 3.
Hear, hear! Although I completely understand where David’s coming from. To be perfectly honest, nearly every clip posted has its musical shortcomings, but by focusing on relative differences (which is better? A or B?) we can help people make those small incremental steps towards musical musical nirvana.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by Charlie1 »

David Neel wrote: 2021-04-22 23:33 I wasn't intending to be hard on members sharing clips, particularly since I've also submitted clips! Just honest about my reactions... so I'm sorry if that appeared rude. I'm really interested in which streaming services are most musical, because my past experience says that my LSNAS is better than the Tidal trial I had. But that is a few years ago, and I'm open to revisiting the streaming services.

My experience with digital in any form is not altogether positive. I've just been listening to the (digitally remastered vinyl) reissue of Barbirolli's Brahms 2, and as much as love his interpretation, it's a relief to get back to Klemperer in an original release. So when I say that those clips didn't want to make me listen further, I meant it in the sense that life is too short to listen to music which doesn't engage us - as to which was better, that is irrelevant to me if neither are adequately musical.

Again, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is not a judgment on PetterS, whose thoughtful contributions I value.
No worries - seems I also misinterpreted your comments somewhat.

Back to business :)
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Re: Streaming service

Post by David Neel »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-23 09:35 No worries - seems I also misinterpreted your comments somewhat.
They were wide open to that, being so terse. :(
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-23 09:35 Back to business :)
:)
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Re: Streaming service

Post by PetterS »

Thanks for all comments!, and the inevitable risk-taking that follows...

So, aware of that my setup is far away from state of the art in digital streaming, I think the recorded clips at least gave me some insights and confirmation concerning streamed music services. As you can see in “My system” thread, I’ve made some upgrades last month. Despite this, when I this weekend did hook up my old Thorens TT - that has been sitting in a wardrobe for two decades - it clearly outshined the streaming when playing a vinyl with jazz quartet. My wife and sister needed two seconds two confirm that, despite both being overwhelmed before with the sound of the streaming set up. And it’s just a mid-ranged old Thorens with a used mid-ranged Ortofon cartridge and stylus. So, I’m not offended by any comments about the clips sounding sub-standard.

I did give TIDAL a thorough tryout some years ago and was never hooked. And I have also listened to TIDAL on some top of the line LINN setups, though never at home. I simply did find Spotify more musical. This month Qobuz became available in Sweden, and I have to say it’s a totally different creature compared to what I did experience with TIDAL. So, the clips were organized as follows:

Test 1
ex.1: A Qobuz B Spotify
ex.2: A Qobuz B Spotify

Test 2 (both rounds)
ex.3 A Spotify B Qobuz
ex.4 A Spotify B Qobuz

I think Spotify has a slight edge in terms of being rhythmically engaging (foot tapping qualities) in ex.2 and 3. The sound though is more transparent and has more room in all examples with Qobuz, which I guess comes down to higher resolution in all of the clips. I think I will wait for high res Spotify before I decide to do a switch to Qobuz.

Finally, IMO none of the streaming services are good enough for acoustic jazz and especially classical music, at least not on my setup. I will write later about my thoughts concerning this matter. Btw, compared to Genki, Wakonda, LK100 – both streaming services do well in comparison on my current setup.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by beck »

Hi PetterS. Do you find the differences between Qobuz and Spotify to be constant or can it vary with track, time of day and more.....?
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Re: Streaming service

Post by PetterS »

Good question. I have found that on Spotify. Only had Qobuz for a few days.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by lejonklou »

Teemu wrote: 2021-04-22 13:01
Teemu wrote: 2021-04-21 17:47Spotify will never sounds better than Qobuz and that's fact.
lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-22 12:13You need to get out of your megapixel mindset and start listening without prejudice
I think you underestimate others as a listener now.
I don't underestimate you or anyone else as listeners. What I was objecting to, perhaps a bit harshly, was your statement that Spotify will never sound better than Qobuz, due to some technical aspects. Such convictions are unproductive and prevent you from making new discoveries. It's much better to start with an open mind, trust your experience and then, if needed, search for the reason behind your experience.

If I hadn't adopted this approach I would never have bought a Linn Axis after first hearing it in the late 80's. I had just bought a brand new Systemdek and everyone knew it was the best turntable for the money! What I needed was a better cartridge, everyone knew that's the part that makes all the difference on a turntable. What they told me at that first visit to a Linn shop (the cartridge is the least important part of your turntable, keep it, sell the Systemdek and buy an Axis!) was contrary to everything I had learned. But I listened to the music and there was no question the Axis was much better.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by u252agz »

PetterS wrote: 2021-04-23 10:06
. Btw, compared to Genki, Wakonda, LK100 – both streaming services do well in comparison on my current setup.
Can you expand on this.

Are the streaming services better than Genki and if so, how much better are they? Have you stopped using Genki if the same CD is available on Spotify/Qobuz.

I have been using Qobuz for a year and now trying out Spotify. At the moment, Spotify sounds much better in my system.

I think my Marantz cd6007 is giving qobuz a good run for its money
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Re: Streaming service

Post by PetterS »

u252agz wrote: 2021-04-23 10:36
PetterS wrote: 2021-04-23 10:06
. Btw, compared to Genki, Wakonda, LK100 – both streaming services do well in comparison on my current setup.
Can you expand on this.

Are the streaming services better than Genki and if so, how much better are they? Have you stopped using Genki if the same CD is available on Spotify/Qobuz.

I have been using Qobuz for a year and now trying out Spotify. At the moment, Spotify sounds much better in my system.

I think my Marantz cd6007 is giving qobuz a good run for its money
Yes, I did find that Spotify was better in my current streaming setup compared to hooking up the Genki directly to the Boazu, listening to the same recording on CD and stream. The Genki was slightly better when connected first to my NP30 DAC, but still slightly inferior to the streaming. However, I did only compare one recording which was an early Tower of Power recording, whereas the Genki in my opinion earlier has really excelled.

I haven't yet compared Qobuz with Genki. But what truly annoys me is how musical the Thorens is, when playing an old jazz record.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by ThomasOK »

It isn't easy to compete with good analog. Setting up as many turntables as I do (finishing up an arm swap on a basic LP12/Valhalla, three more LP12s and a Thorens in the wings) I am still surprised and pleased with how musical even a relatively basic turntable can sound when setup properly. I get in any number of cheap, plastic, $100 70s turntables and when fitted with an AT VM95 and a Linn or Rega felt mat and properly torqued and dialed in they are still enjoyable. More so as I just get more enjoyment out of listening to them than I do to a modest CD player or streamer. Considering how much I looked down on these cheap turntables back when I was selling people Dual 505s, Regas and LP12s, I am surprised that they do have the ability to reproduce enjoyable music that grooves beyond even modern inexpensive digital.

So I'm not at all surprised that you are finding the Thorens enjoyable as it was indeed a worthwhile table back in the day, and can be even better with a little care and a better mat. But I would also recommend you get rid of that record clamp.
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Re: Streaming service

Post by hcl »

PetterS wrote: 2021-04-23 11:29...
I haven't yet compared Qobuz with Genki. But what truly annoys me is how musical the Thorens is, when playing an old jazz record.
Just out of curiosity; What Thorens do you have?
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Re: Streaming service

Post by PetterS »

hcl wrote: 2021-05-02 18:33 Just out of curiosity; What Thorens do you have?
TD46. Before I plugged it in a forthnight ago after decades of sleep, I polished the bearing, adjusted the springs, changed the belt, made a thicker base plate and added some damping inside.
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Re: Qobuz vs. Spotify

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-20 03:03 I have now tested Qobuz and I'm slightly disappointed.
I have compared quite a few albums and tracks using Spotify and Qobuz. With Qobuz, the sound is more "clean", while with Spotify it's a little thicker and more dense. Perhaps this difference is due to Qobuz using 16/44.1 and Spotify being compressed.
But there's also another difference. With Qobuz, the musical timing is less precise than with Spotify. There's like a digital signature with Qobuz that makes sounds separate instead of coming together. The result is a lack of emotional connection. Spotify might fault in the opposite way, being more dense and pushing things together instead of separating them. But it's still easier to understand and become gripped by a completely unknown track with Spotify than with Qobuz. Likely this is due to how they deliver the data, something that we have found far more important than the actual resolution of the data being transferred.
Having now compared Spotify and Qobuz I agree with you.
Spotify makes musically more sense and I am more curious to listen with Spotify to all tracks of an album than with Qobuz. I really hope they will get Spotify Hifi right and we will have the best of both worlds (music and sound).

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Re: Streaming service

Post by mrco99 »

It seems the launch of a lossless Apple Hifi streaming option is also in the works

https://9to5mac.com/2021/05/01/ios-14-6 ... eferences/

Interesting times ahead.
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Re: Qobuz vs. Spotify

Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-20 03:03
matthias wrote: 2021-04-17 15:37 Fredrik,

now as Qobuz is available in Sweden would you like to try it and comment on it?
Much appreciated :-)
Hi Matt!

I have now tested Qobuz and I'm slightly disappointed.

I have compared quite a few albums and tracks using Spotify and Qobuz. With Qobuz, the sound is more "clean", while with Spotify it's a little thicker and more dense. Perhaps this difference is due to Qobuz using 16/44.1 and Spotify being compressed.

But there's also another difference. With Qobuz, the musical timing is less precise than with Spotify. There's like a digital signature with Qobuz that makes sounds separate instead of coming together. The result is a lack of emotional connection. Spotify might fault in the opposite way, being more dense and pushing things together instead of separating them. But it's still easier to understand and become gripped by a completely unknown track with Spotify than with Qobuz. Likely this is due to how they deliver the data, something that we have found far more important than the actual resolution of the data being transferred.

We have compared other streaming services as well. Spotify wins over Apple Music and most of the time over Youtube Music (premium).

If there are any specific settings in the Qobuz app that I need to set, I'd be happy if you could share them and I'll give it another try.

All comparisons were done using Källa.
This is exactly how I found Qobuz when it was first introduced,flat,boring and without any emotional engagement.At the time I actually found MP3 Deezer to be the most musical of them all . Probably things have changed now.
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