Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

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donuk
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Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by donuk »

I think the debate so far has made certain assumptions and, perhaps of necessity has been simplified.

Do we take if as given that streamed music sounds as good as well ripped and stored FLAC or WAV files?
Do we take it that Hi-Res files can sound better than "ordinary" red book rips or streams?
Do we take it that internet services are 100% reliable?

I maintain (please disagree) that all music digitally recorded in the studio will always sound "digital" to digital detractors.
Which precludes most recorded music of the past 40 years.
To me all media have faults, every recording is a compromise.

Subscribing to Qobuz and having my own hard disk collection is what I do. Best of all worlds, future proof, and it enables me to audition and perhaps purchase Hi-Res files when I think they have something that "normal" versions do not.

Also my experiences latterly have indicated that great sound improvements to digital music can be brought about by switches/linear power supplies/optical linking/DHCP configurations and suchlike which may be outside the brief of this forum. It is not just files and how they sit on your hard disk or stream into your house. These sorts of practices can help diminish the innate weaknesses of digital recording. In the same way (IMHO) Linn and Naim evolved equipment and practices which help offset the weaknesses of magnetic tape recording. Forgive me for rambling on.....

Donuk beautiful downtown York
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Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Spannko »

donuk wrote: 2020-09-26 11:28
Also my experiences latterly have indicated that great sound improvements to digital music can be brought about by switches/linear power supplies/optical linking/DHCP configurations and suchlike which may be outside the brief of this forum.
These are just the type of tweaks we like to hear about Don! Would you mind describing what you’ve found works for you please?
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Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by donuk »

Well Spannko, thanks for the encouragement.
To make a start.
It seems that the noise flowing around a home network does reduce the musicality of streamed music.
Not just the path from say your NAS to your streamer, but any noise that flows, say from the internet, your router, or any other appliance or intermediate switch can affect spoil the sound. It will sound less musical.
There has been a lot written by hobbyists about magic switches. I found that a standard Cisco improved upon my TP-Link. Then I foolishly borrowed the Melco S100 switch to connect up the NAS (in this case a Melco N1/A) and my Linn ADS Katalyst streamer. I found the effect so bewitching, I had to purchase it, thankfully just before lockdown.
I began experimenting with items in a home network that produced traffic and noise which could impinge on sound quality. I am aware I am among a number of tunedemmers, so I am choosing my adjectives carefully and vaguely.

I found that network address allocation effects the music. If you don't know about DHCP, look it up - I have had to learn about such things! In short with DHCP functioning in your router it chooses addresses (which look like 192.168.0.18) and allocates them to all the gadgets in your household - wireless and connected. And you will notice that if you modify something, the processor is likely to have a fit and give everything a new address. This usually ruins your play lists as well. And can cause frustration with control points.

So get in your router, keep DHCP switched on, but fix the addresses of all your usual appliances. Also the most significant improvement is gained by fixing the address within your NAS - which I can do on my QNAP and Melco.

The advantage of this is that the router does not have to send as much traffic around checking up on where everything is, and that it is living at the right address. So there will be fewer non-musical signals floating around and less intrusion on the main business of getting a musical file to your streamer.

I am also looking at optical methods of keeping the network clean which I may report on later.

Disclaimer - I have no formal training in network management and may well be totally wrong with my explanation: it keeps me happy anyway. Regard my text as an analogy. If you know better, I envy you. Also if you know even less than I do and mess up your network, don't blame me. Just reset to factory settings your router and start again.

I have a friend who has a better system than mine and has also found these adjustments impressive.

And if all this seems unlikely and irrelevant, blame Spannko!

Donuk beautiful downtown York
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Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Spannko »

Thanks Don,

The modern home has a crazy amount of “things” connected to the internet, all competing for a connection, so it’s no wonder our systems struggle at times!

Your findings have made me realise that I need to take network design & layout much more seriously. What I’ve got is a mishmash of network components, all plugged in for convenience, without any consideration for efficient performance.

So, your starter for ten is, if you designed the “ideal” network, what would it look like?
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Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by matthias »

I use Qobuz via WiFi to Audirvana as player on my MBP.
Audirvana is loading the files into RAM before playback.
For serous listening I switch WiFi off on my MBP after the files have been loaded into RAM.
So during playback there is no network activity at all.
There is no difference between WiFi off and on regarding "audiophile" criteria, but regarding tune dem WiFi off seems to be superior.

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Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by FairPlayMotty »

donuk wrote: 2020-09-26 19:05 Well Spannko, thanks for the encouragement.
To make a start.
It seems that the noise flowing around a home network does reduce the musicality of streamed music.
Not just the path from say your NAS to your streamer, but any noise that flows, say from the internet, your router, or any other appliance or intermediate switch can affect spoil the sound. It will sound less musical.
There has been a lot written by hobbyists about magic switches. I found that a standard Cisco improved upon my TP-Link. Then I foolishly borrowed the Melco S100 switch to connect up the NAS (in this case a Melco N1/A) and my Linn ADS Katalyst streamer. I found the effect so bewitching, I had to purchase it, thankfully just before lockdown.
I began experimenting with items in a home network that produced traffic and noise which could impinge on sound quality. I am aware I am among a number of tunedemmers, so I am choosing my adjectives carefully and vaguely.

I found that network address allocation effects the music. If you don't know about DHCP, look it up - I have had to learn about such things! In short with DHCP functioning in your router it chooses addresses (which look like 192.168.0.18) and allocates them to all the gadgets in your household - wireless and connected. And you will notice that if you modify something, the processor is likely to have a fit and give everything a new address. This usually ruins your play lists as well. And can cause frustration with control points.

So get in your router, keep DHCP switched on, but fix the addresses of all your usual appliances. Also the most significant improvement is gained by fixing the address within your NAS - which I can do on my QNAP and Melco.

The advantage of this is that the router does not have to send as much traffic around checking up on where everything is, and that it is living at the right address. So there will be fewer non-musical signals floating around and less intrusion on the main business of getting a musical file to your streamer.

I am also looking at optical methods of keeping the network clean which I may report on later.

Disclaimer - I have no formal training in network management and may well be totally wrong with my explanation: it keeps me happy anyway. Regard my text as an analogy. If you know better, I envy you. Also if you know even less than I do and mess up your network, don't blame me. Just reset to factory settings your router and start again.

I have a friend who has a better system than mine and has also found these adjustments impressive.

And if all this seems unlikely and irrelevant, blame Spannko!

Donuk beautiful downtown York
There's much food for thought there Donuk.

I used the attached to start my home network build. I pretty much used the same equipment (I am using better quality ethernet cable). And there's a much better way to cut drywall. If you use the right saw at and cut the segments out at a 45° angle replacing the segments is easy - they don't fall through the hole and decorative damage is limited. It's a good guide to the physical network. Your amendments to router and device set-up make sense to me. I'm teaching myself networking as I go. Using a top quality router and rack switches is a great starting point. As you're no doubt aware the ISP routers don't cut it.

https://youtu.be/uGRYfVdAja4
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by lejonklou »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-09-26 21:40 Using a top quality router and rack switches is a great starting point. As you're no doubt aware the ISP routers don't cut it.
Are you using a Synology router?

I'd like to get some tips on which routers our members are using and if there are any particular settings or layout that you find preferable using with it.

I can confirm what Donuk mentions that for instance assigning fixed addresses in the network can bring improvements. Just like with the HiFi system itself, a simple layout is often preferable and much easier to maintain and optimize. But out of convenience, we often just add more and more things to it, without noticing the gradual negative impact this can bring.
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Fredrik,

I tried a relatively high cost Synology router. It failed to install an initial upgrade during set up. I wanted it to work - the apps available for it are really useful. But even Amazon directly asking Synology for help failed. It went back. It was replaced by a TP Link Archer VR2800. It works very well and the user interface is very easy to use.
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by matthias »

Did someone try devices according to the new WiFi 6 standard?
Thanks

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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by fatjulio »

I've found that using good network cables between all components makes a difference, not just between NAS, switch and player. I'm using the Blue Jeans cables. I tried some between the Netgear switch and internet router, and between the internet router and fibre box. It has the same effect as between the obvious components.
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Spannko »

Here’s a really easy introduction to DHCP

https://www.dummies.com/programming/ce ... ring-dhcp/
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2020-09-27 19:03 Here’s a really easy introduction to DHCP

https://www.dummies.com/programming/ce ... ring-dhcp/
Sorry Spannko,I didn't really understand that article,could you dummy it down a bit more for me thanks ?
It seems the article is talking about the server issuing out IP addresses,is that correct?
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-09-26 23:28
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-09-26 21:40 Using a top quality router and rack switches is a great starting point. As you're no doubt aware the ISP routers don't cut it.
Are you using a Synology router?

I'd like to get some tips on which routers our members are using and if there are any particular settings or layout that you find preferable using with it.

I can confirm what Donuk mentions that for instance assigning fixed addresses in the network can bring improvements. Just like with the HiFi system itself, a simple layout is often preferable and much easier to maintain and optimize. But out of convenience, we often just add more and more things to it, without noticing the gradual negative impact this can bring.
Why do you mention Synology routers Fredrik,have you heard good reports about them in particular?
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote: 2020-09-29 06:23 Why do you mention Synology routers Fredrik,have you heard good reports about them in particular?
No, it was only because I remember FPM at some point mentioning he had a Synology router
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by donuk »

Hi Lego,
I am not an expert on home networks which is why you might understand my elementary understanding of DHCP.

In a small home network everything is able to talk to everything else on the network either by radio (wifi) or cable (ethernet or optical).
For them all to make sense they need to know who is who, hence addresses. No need to go into the different types.

It is usually the router which allocates addresses to everybody in home networks. This process is clever and automatic and accommodates new appliances as they come and go from the network (like your mobile phone when you come home).
Although wonderful, it is complicated: it involves making sure there are no clashes, sometimes changing addresses, and a leasing system which means that long gone items get forgotten about and their addresses reused.

Which involves quite a lot of signals floating down the same cables as your Chet Baker FLAC. Some folk argue that simplifying the DHCP process reduces what one might call business traffic, and makes Chet Baker more lifelike.

Treat the above as more of an analogy than technically sound, but I hope this is helpful.

A more simple explanation is that DHCP = network traffic nothing to do with the music, to enable it all to work.

Donuk beautiful downtown York.
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by matthias »

Hi Donuk,

what do you think about disconnecting your network from the streamer during playback?
Thanks

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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by donuk »

Hi Matt
disconnecting the network during playback? To be honest I have not really tried this - seems likely to lead to frustration, although well worth trying. I also use Qobuz, so would be a pain!
I have installed an optical link north of my Melco Switch and south of the rest of the home network so there are now no copper connections between my "audio network" and the rest of the house. It sounds better.....

Worth trying.

There is a lot to think about with audio networks, and I feel that we are only scratching the surface. I would not share my experiments on most forums - the problem is that people like myself are operating well outside their knowledge base, and are vulnerable. Never spoke of networks when I did electronics expect for resistances connected up to make pretty star shaped patterns. And thankfully on Mr L's forum we do not get many of the folk who, at every opportunity scream "Bollocks, if you can't show me the physics, it can't exist". And variations. I would have hoped that quantum mechanics would have killed that crowd off.

But for me it is a good hobby. I can well understand why some "improvements" with networks work in some situations and not others. All to do with the function and settings of everything in the network and the interaction of all spurious signals. One friend of mine says that his sound improves when he switches off the wifi transmitters on his router. I suppose that could be because of RF radiation and/or less burden on the power supply.

Let's leave the iniquities of power supplies for another day....

Donuk beautiful downtown York.
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Lego »

donuk wrote: 2020-09-29 10:41 Hi Lego,
I am not an expert on home networks which is why you might understand my elementary understanding of DHCP.

In a small home network everything is able to talk to everything else on the network either by radio (wifi) or cable (ethernet or optical).
For them all to make sense they need to know who is who, hence addresses. No need to go into the different types.

It is usually the router which allocates addresses to everybody in home networks. This process is clever and automatic and accommodates new appliances as they come and go from the network (like your mobile phone when you come home).
Although wonderful, it is complicated: it involves making sure there are no clashes, sometimes changing addresses, and a leasing system which means that long gone items get forgotten about and their addresses reused.

Which involves quite a lot of signals floating down the same cables as your Chet Baker FLAC. Some folk argue that simplifying the DHCP process reduces what one might call business traffic, and makes Chet Baker more lifelike.

Treat the above as more of an analogy than technically sound, but I hope this is helpful.

A more simple explanation is that DHCP = network traffic nothing to do with the music, to enable it all to work.

Donuk beautiful downtown York.
Thanks Don,I was wondering why Spannko put up an explanation where it was the server issuing the IP addresses rather than the router .
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Lego »

matthias wrote: 2020-09-26 21:15 I use Qobuz via WiFi to Audirvana as player on my MBP.
Audirvana is loading the files into RAM before playback.
For serous listening I switch WiFi off on my MBP after the files have been loaded into RAM.
So during playback there is no network activity at all.
There is no difference between WiFi off and on regarding "audiophile" criteria, but regarding tune dem WiFi off seems to be superior.

Matt
Any chance of some clips demonstrating this Matthias?

Quite a few years ago I tried playing music from the ram on my laptop but couldn't really hear any difference,so it would be good to have another chance to compare.

Do you think you'll ever take the plunge and get yourself a dedicated streamer or are you too committed to analogue.
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Spannko »

Lego wrote: 2020-09-29 20:20 Thanks Don,I was wondering why Spannko put up an explanation where it was the server issuing the IP addresses rather than the router .
Did I ? Oops! I didn’t even notice tbh!

However, a “DHCP server” is a piece of software which can be installed in a computer, nas, router etc.

Here’s a bit of info re servers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_(computing)

And a bit more about DHCP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_ ... n_Protocol
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2020-09-29 23:02 Did I ? Oops! I didn’t even notice tbh!

However, a “DHCP server” is a piece of software which can be installed in a computer, nas, router etc.

Here’s a bit of info re servers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_(computing)

And a bit more about DHCP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_ ... n_Protocol
Thanks Spannko :0) ....and if by chance you might happen want to to set static IP addresses in your network ,try this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UhiORc5QAc&t=230s
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by matthias »

Lego wrote: 2020-09-29 20:29 Do you think you'll ever take the plunge and get yourself a dedicated streamer?
If you mean a DIY project like HAKAI I would say no.

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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by Lego »

matthias wrote: 2020-09-30 08:15
Lego wrote: 2020-09-29 20:29 Do you think you'll ever take the plunge and get yourself a dedicated streamer?
If you mean a DIY project like HAKAI I would say no.

Matt
How about Linn DS ?
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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by matthias »

Lego wrote: 2020-09-30 08:57 How about Linn DS ?
No thanks, have other preferences at the moment.

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Re: Home Network tweaking (was 'Buy or Rent')

Post by sunbeamgls »

An important thing about DHCP / address allocation & assignment of addresses.

It must only happen in one place in your network. Routers usually do this for you. However, NAS products often offer this facility too. Its fine to allow the NAS or any other permanently connected computer to do this job. But the really important thing is to only have one device doing this job - if there's more than one, it will be an unpleasant experience.

Disconnecting the streamer from the network to test for improved sound - this is only viable if you are willing to do this everytime you want to change the music that's playing (and waiting for the network connections to re-establisth and stabilise), which is usually selected from a device connected to the network. That's fine if you're keen, but for me that hassle would far outweigh any potential sound benefit.
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