upgrade path

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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tokenbrit
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Re: upgrade path

Post by tokenbrit »

Spannko wrote: 2020-11-07 17:46
Lego wrote: 2020-11-07 16:03
Spannko wrote: 2020-11-06 21:56
.. like when I put the milk in the juice cupboard rather than the fridge!
WTH is a juice cupboard?
It’s the cupboard where one keeps ones fruit juices...
I thought that was obvious... surprised everyone couldn't have 'dejuiced' that :)
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-07 23:08
lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-07 12:28
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-07 10:06
For inspiration on where to start for digital sources at sensible money, this page is a good starting point:http://www.lampizator.eu/lampizator/CD_ ... nking.html
I didn't ask for inspiration. I asked you to specify a sub £100 source that beats KDS.

Now please do that.
Which of the digital sources in the category ZERO, that can be bought for under £100, from the link that I provided, have you, or anyone else reading this compared against a Linn KDS?
One again a nonsense answer.

So which one is better than KDS?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by donuk »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-07 12:26
donuk wrote: 2020-11-07 09:32Hi Fredrick, I am sure we must be misunderstanding each other.
But
Get a potentiometer (variable resistance) of 10k ohms.
Connect the left terminal to source output.
Connect the right hand terminal to common ground (signal earth).
Connect the wiper (centre terminal) to the input of the power amp.

Now unless you are setting the potentiometer for loud volumes the source will see a higher impedance than the power amp.
It may well be necessary to add series resistances to prevent excessive impedance loads.

As I pointed out, and I will concede, this non-linearity does nothing for the SQ, which will probably change with volume settings
It's not a matter of misunderstanding, but that we are on different levels. You are unaware of the importance of impedances, I am not.
Sorry, Fredrick, I thing this response is rude and patronising. You are better than this level of debate. I think it is not the way to treat customers and hobby forum contributors. I think the time has come to leave this forum.

Donuk.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Charlie1 »

I hope you will stay Don!
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

donuk wrote: 2020-11-08 10:27 Sorry, Fredrick, I thing this response is rude and patronising. You are better than this level of debate. I think it is not the way to treat customers and hobby forum contributors. I think the time has come to leave this forum.
Sorry that you think my answer was rude, Don. To me it was factual. Perhaps bluntly expressed, but still factual.

I was saying that passive volume controls are inherently flawed because they mess up the impedances between source and receiver.

You said that's not a problem, explaining how to connect a potentiometer. That is something very basic.

I could enter a discussion of how the impedances are now messed up and what effect that will have in both ends, depending on the circuits and the cable that connects them. And how your comment on series resistances was revealing. But that would likely be a very long discussion about a topic that to most people isn't very entertaining. And I'm not even sure where I'd begin.

So instead I simply pointed out that we are at different levels of understanding of these matters. Was that rude because you don't agree that we are or because one isn't supposed to point such things out? In this case, I could see no way around it, as lindsayt is filling this thread with silly claims that he refuses to back up and you decided to chime in that I was wrong when saying that impedances matter.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by El Mero Mero »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-07 12:26 It's not a matter of misunderstanding, but that we are on different levels. You are unaware of the importance of impedances, I am not.
When I read this my first reaction was that it was very hard. It reads as an insult to donuk. Sometimes our Swedish - English translation is not the best.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Defender »

El Mero Mero wrote: 2020-11-08 14:47
lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-07 12:26 It's not a matter of misunderstanding, but that we are on different levels. You are unaware of the importance of impedances, I am not.
When I read this my first reaction was that it was very hard. It reads as an insult to donuk. Sometimes our Swedish - English translation is not the best.
I think you are reading something into it what is not there.
We shouldnt have a thin skin.

Put yourself in the shoes of Fredrik: someone who might have some experience with soldering is telling a producer of fine electronic equipment how to connect a pot? This is for sure 2 different levels of experience.

The issue is nowadays knowledge is everywhere (the internet) but that doesnt mean its is experience or ability to do those things and make the right decisions.

People should humble themselves and know what they know and even more what they dont know.

Telling Fredrik something he already knows is funny because thats basic knowledge and might have nothing to do with the topic of impedance matching (I dont know ...I am just guessing but I also dont pretend to know.)
So keep it for what it was a statement.

By the way my experience with passive volume control is it sucks out live out of the music.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by cortina »

And here was I, thinking Swedes were the most easily offended people in the World..
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Whatsmynaim »

I understand Fredrik when he wants to keep everything in this forum based on facts and proof.
It can already be quite hard to learn and fully understand the Tune Method and finding HiFi gear that can play music.
Inaccurate information and claims will only make that more difficult. Hence it must be corrected and to keep the high standard this forum is known for. Heck, even I have been corrected a few times and I don't want it any other way.
You know, he's only helping us getting back on the right track :)
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

El Mero Mero wrote: 2020-11-08 14:47
lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-07 12:26 It's not a matter of misunderstanding, but that we are on different levels. You are unaware of the importance of impedances, I am not.
When I read this my first reaction was that it was very hard. It reads as an insult to donuk. Sometimes our Swedish - English translation is not the best.
You are probably right, El Mero Mero.

Matching the impedance between source and receiver is not only important in electronic circuits, but also in communication between people. It seems I focused only on the first and failed to recognize the latter.

Don, I apologize for my blunt message.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by donuk »

I don't particularly need an apology; I think we are all a bit irritable on here for reasons we have discussed.

Nor do I want to take offence at Defender's making assumptions about my soldering ability. I am not going to wave my credentials but I used to be an Electrical Engineer.

The main fault, as I said, seems to be a genuine misunderstanding. I referred to the fact twice in my posts that I was fully aware that a variable resistive network was not good in musical/hifi terms. I even gave the reason: a properly constructed preamplifier can have a constant output impedance, with which Mr L concurred.

I was merely illustrating that a dividing network can theoretically be configured to give a lower output impedance: the calculations are well within the range of a first year undergraduate.

So, let's draw a line under the issue. If we had been in a bar I know Mr L and I would have agreed throughout.

A long time ago, I had a boss, the best manager I ever had. She was firm but fair. I once went into her office full of rage about another section head, and started mouthing off about him. She said "Sit down, Don. And listen. You do not get paid enough to get angry." We burst out laughing.

Now none of us get paid enough to suffer any distress on Hifi forums. Which is why I contribute very infrequently to others. Except the Minimserver forum; they are also very polite and grown-up.

I am going downstairs to listen again to my Tundra 2.0.

Best to all

Donuk
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Defender »

hi donuk I didnt wanted to offend you. I think to have this as a question and answer discussion would have been more productive. Like: why do you think a pot with some in series resistance wouldnt solve the problem?

I think as long as you dont have experience in analog circuit design for this purpose (hifi) and experience in evaluating the outcome even having an background in electrical engineering is just not enough.

Buts thats my take on it but maybe I am just assuming too much - I think we all miss fresh air and contact to other people - if we ever meet in person the first beer is on me.
Enjoy your Tundra - I am jealous.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by sunbeamgls »

I've heard a few systems containing Lampizator components. Mixed bag - none of them bad, one particularly musical, one too edgy for long term listening.
Despite the www claims, these are not reasonably priced components, with DACs and CD players in the €3k to €6k region.
If the components they build at these prices are somewhat less musically enjoyable than many systems costing much less (and some that cost much more, for example those with a KDS/3) I wonder why Lampizator don't just knock a few €100 kits together and blow our socks off?
Last edited by sunbeamgls on 2020-11-10 10:30, edited 1 time in total.
KSH/0; KEBox/2; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC fact.12. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Lego »

donuk wrote: 2020-11-08 20:43 I don't particularly need an apology; I think we are all a bit irritable on here for reasons we have discussed.

Nor do I want to take offence at Defender's making assumptions about my soldering ability. I am not going to wave my credentials but I used to be an Electrical Engineer.

The main fault, as I said, seems to be a genuine misunderstanding. I referred to the fact twice in my posts that I was fully aware that a variable resistive network was not good in musical/hifi terms. I even gave the reason: a properly constructed preamplifier can have a constant output impedance, with which Mr L concurred.

I was merely illustrating that a dividing network can theoretically be configured to give a lower output impedance: the calculations are well within the range of a first year undergraduate.

So, let's draw a line under the issue. If we had been in a bar I know Mr L and I would have agreed throughout.

A long time ago, I had a boss, the best manager I ever had. She was firm but fair. I once went into her office full of rage about another section head, and started mouthing off about him. She said "Sit down, Don. And listen. You do not get paid enough to get angry." We burst out laughing.

Now none of us get paid enough to suffer any distress on Hifi forums. Which is why I contribute very infrequently to others. Except the Minimserver forum; they are also very polite and grown-up.

I am going downstairs to listen again to my Tundra 2.0.

Best to all

Donuk
Don ,you are an electrical engineer,all be it retired ...Not unless you built a pre amp and got struck off :0)
I know that tune
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-08 01:51
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-07 23:08
lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-07 12:28
I didn't ask for inspiration. I asked you to specify a sub £100 source that beats KDS.

Now please do that.
Which of the digital sources in the category ZERO, that can be bought for under £100, from the link that I provided, have you, or anyone else reading this compared against a Linn KDS?
One again a nonsense answer.

So which one is better than KDS?
The rules of this forum include the following statements:

"With the exception of a few companies, there is generally no correlation between price and performance of HiFi, home cinema and car stereo equipment. With performance I refer to the ability to accurately reproduce a tune or melody
."

I say Amen to that.

"In addition to the above, please observe that the following is not allowed:
Unnecessary negativity (such as "I don't believe in that and have no intention of finding out for myself"),
"

Amen to that too.

It's negative to express the mindset that what another member of the forum has said is nonsense when you haven't done the same listening tests that that member is reporting.


"The spirit of this forum is one of curiosity, respect and friendly, productive participation."

And Amen to this rule as well.

Which is why I have been trying to encourage the members of this forum to explore a few sub £100 digital sources for themselves.

I have compared sub £100 off ebay unmodified, original spec CD players with Philips TDA1549 DAC's against the Linn KDS. The TDA1549's were at least as tuneful as the Linn KDS. There were detectable sonic differences between the 2 sources. None of which I would describe as worth spending any money over, because tune is king.

And then there are £10 brand new off ebay Chinese DAC's with £50 off ebay brand new linear power supplies with £40 brand new SPDIF converters...
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Re: upgrade path

Post by beck »

Lindsayt, like you I think that digital even in very basic form (read cheap) can be really good. As Spannko has stated elsewhere it is the implementation that has to be carefully crafted to make it work.

We just do not need a forum where we “shout” this is better than that. Your point is clear and next step is to show it!
Do not expect members just to take your statements for granted. You have to earn your “rights” by making your case showing what you think to be true.

Make your case and produce some “evidence” before taking the findings to court! :-)


....or just state your findings as yours and let others dive into them as well to find out if they can hear the same.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

beck wrote: 2020-11-12 11:26
Make your case and produce some “evidence” before taking the findings to court! :-)

What do you think I did with my 2nd to last paragraph in my previous post?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by beck »

Thank you for the pointer Lindsayt.

Your findings are noted and others may persue this direction investigating digital replay.

If you want to show others here what you have heard you can try with clips.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-12 10:58 Which is why I have been trying to encourage the members of this forum to explore a few sub £100 digital sources for themselves.
Lindsayt, I have had enough of this little game of yours. I have repeatedly asked you which product you think plays a tune better than a KDS. Specifically. Not generally. Not as in "look at this page for inspiration" or similar nonsense.

Why do I insist on this? Because you are making silly claims. I say that because I have listened to a lot of digital players, especially simple and odd solutions. It was part of my job when developing a streamer. And while it is perfectly possible to beat a KDS, it requires an awful lot of work, finding a lot of special parts and some really clever programming. There are no such designs ready to buy at the price level you mention.

So for the very last time, I ask you to name a specific sub £100 unit that beats a Linn KDS.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-12 12:14
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-12 10:58 Which is why I have been trying to encourage the members of this forum to explore a few sub £100 digital sources for themselves.
Lindsayt, I have had enough of this little game of yours. I have repeatedly asked you which product you think plays a tune better than a KDS. Specifically. Not generally. Not as in "look at this page for inspiration" or similar nonsense.

Why do I insist on this? Because you are making silly claims. I say that because I have listened to a lot of digital players, especially simple and odd solutions. It was part of my job when developing a streamer. And while it is perfectly possible to beat a KDS, it requires an awful lot of work, finding a lot of special parts and some really clever programming. There are no such designs ready to buy at the price level you mention.

So for the very last time, I ask you to name a specific sub £100 unit that beats a Linn KDS.
I aleady have. 2 posts ago. 2nd to last paragraph.

Did you read the Lampizator webpage to which I linked? Did you see the TDA1549 mentioned in his category Zero digital sources? Did you see which CD players featured this DAC? There were very few models that did. The Marantz ones were rebadged Philips machines. Did you check UK ebay to see what sort of prices these sell for now?

"Silly claims"?
They are merely the results of my listening tests using tunedem.
Which I have invited anyone to try for themselves and make their own minds up.
If you think it's silly for me to report the results of my demos and to suggest people try similar solutions for themselves with an open mind, then that is entirely up to you.

How specific would you like me to be?
This specific?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Philips-CD-P ... SwL5xfmW9n

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Marantz-comp ... SwlElfqCqt

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/marantz-cd-p ... SwLgNfpuSa


And then there's this DAC
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001 ... web201603_
with this power supply
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hifi-linear- ... 2749.l2649
with this SPDIF converter
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-to-SPDIF ... 2749.l2649

Plus I've heard good reports from people whose judgement I trust on the Topping E30 - which would be over £100, but under £200 with a linear power supply.

Bearing in mind that - in the context of the original post in this thread - these cheapo digital sources do not need to beat a Linn KDS, they merely have to equal it from a tunedem point of view.
Expecially in the context of it being easy to find speakers that thrash Linn M140's when it comes to tunefulness - with the big proviso that the speakers that I've come across so far that beat M140's most comprehensively are bigger and uglier.
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Whopping the Topping

Post by Ron The Mon »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-12 14:58 Especially in the context of it being easy to find speakers that thrash Linn M140's when it comes to tunefulness - with the big proviso that the speakers that I've come across so far that beat M140's most comprehensively are bigger and uglier.
lindsayt,
Which DS firmwares do you find the most musical? Many on this Forum find version 4.53.125 the best. What is your opinion?

Have you ever owned Linn M140s? If so, for how long?

What amps did you use in your Linn M140 system? What amps do you use now? What is your current system?

"Thrash[ing] Linn M140s when it comes to tunefulness" is a bold statement.

This Forum is very open to using comparison recordings and judging them. If you could supply some online demonstrating of what you're hearing in your home (as I have done), we could all learn from your experience.

Ron The Mon
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Re: Whopping the Topping

Post by lindsayt »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-11-12 18:45
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-12 14:58 Especially in the context of it being easy to find speakers that thrash Linn M140's when it comes to tunefulness - with the big proviso that the speakers that I've come across so far that beat M140's most comprehensively are bigger and uglier.
lindsayt,
Which DS firmwares do you find the most musical? Many on this Forum find version 4.53.125 the best. What is your opinion?

Have you ever owned Linn M140s? If so, for how long?

What amps did you use in your Linn M140 system? What amps do you use now? What is your current system?

"Thrash[ing] Linn M140s when it comes to tunefulness" is a bold statement.

This Forum is very open to using comparison recordings and judging them. If you could supply some online demonstrating of what you're hearing in your home (as I have done), we could all learn from your experience.

Ron The Mon
Ron The Mon, after having auditioned the Linn KDS and found it no more tuneful than something I could buy for under £100, can you understand that I had little incentive to explore the most musical firmware?

No I've never owned Linn M140's. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to buy those speakers.

I have 3 main current systems.

Downstairs system:
Studer A807 - which is the most tuneful source I have.
EMT 950
Philips CD753
NVA PSA50
Korneff clone
EV Patrician 800's

AV system:
X Box
Freesat tuner
Denon SR6010
EV Sentry III - main front
Linn Isobarik - front centre
Linn Saras - rear
Heybrook HB1 - top middle
Epson projector and a huge screen.

Bedroom system
EMT 930
Marantz CD48
Pioneer SF700
Coincident Frankenstein prototypes - above 400 hz
Urei 6230 - below 400 hz
Bozak Symphony

I won't be able to supply you with any recordings.
Feel free to try my broad suggestions for yourself.
Not necessarily trying exactly what I've bought. But your own variation on my theme.

Simple inexpensive digital source.
Hugely over-engineered analogue sources.
Resistor based passive pre-amps (which are a disaster in some systems and a revelation in others)
Power amplification matched to the speakers - and really simple with strong power supplies when the speakers are an easy load.
Either high efficiency speakers or medium efficiency sealed box speakers. Not low efficiency slimline ported speakers.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by nmakowsk »

"Either high efficiency speakers or medium efficiency sealed box speakers. Not low efficiency slimline ported speakers."


In my experience the decibels of sensitivity spec has no relation to how musical or tuneful a speaker will sound. Correct me if I am wrong but decibels is a simple measure of loudness measured at a specific distance from the speaker. My system went from 98 Db Klipsch F3 floor standers to Isobariks which I think are closer to 85 Db. The bass was a muddy mess on the Klipsch and that horn in comparison sounds detailed but keep everything sounding overly detailed in higher frequencies while mostly ignoring the midrange section. There is no relaxed musical midrange where something like a guitar sounds natural. Isobariks sound natural and have well controlled dry deep bass especially with the external crossovers. Just saying a speaker needs to have a certain efficiency doesn't make sense to me. What is wrong with a slimline ported speaker? Maybe the ports help a smaller speaker to resonate or go lower in Hz per the design. The Magik 140 is one of the first high quality speakers I heard when I was deciding to buy either a rega or magik LP12 back around 2010 I think. Connected to either of these sources, that 140 sounded darn good and tuneful. the 140 goes low enough to show you some low bass when its present in the recording. I think this might be one of the only passive speakers left from Linn sadly. What model speakers have you heard LindsayT that beats the 140 in a direct comparison?

"Simple inexpensive digital source"

I have learned on this forum that digital is not simple at all and this statement sounds like an oxymoron to me. Look at all the experiments that Beck has done with his CD player. Digital circuits sound like all kinds of compromises to me compared to building something like a well engineered turntable. Fredrik spent gobs of time working on the digital streamer project that was essentially released for free in the end as Hakai. Then there is the Linn DS. The very first Magik DS was okay but not nearly as musical as the newest KDS with Katalyst units. Linn has already spent at least 13 years on the DS architecture. As fredrik has stated it would take a lot of money and time to beat this streamer especially in its current iteration. LindsayT, have you heard the latest DS? I still find the LP12 more musical but goodness that is a heck of a good digital source. A friend of mine has a Klimax LP12 and a KDS with his Exakt system so he has best of both worlds.
LP12/Kar/ARad1/Kore/Ekos SE1/NOKTable/Adikt/Slipsik 8.0/Giella Pi 1.2/Tundra Stereo 2.2/1992 Briks
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Re: upgrade path

Post by OscarH »

Just as a side note, I have a Hakai (ie not a KDS) and a Marantz CD-50 (not a CD-48) available.

I could make some clips if people are interested.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by donuk »

Shame to hear that Linn are doing no more Katalyst upgrades because of the catastrophic fire at the DAC factory in Japan recently. They are keeping their stock for new units only.

I am aware that I sometimes hold minority views on this forum, but on the question of digital sound, I simply say this:

Through extensive experimenting during the virus lockdown this year, a friend and I have done extensive experiments on our Linn based systems (ADS and KDS). We have found that the biggest cause of digital systems sounding different, variable in time and place and from day to day depends upon what is happening on the home ethernet.

Routers, wifi proximity, DHCP, address allocation, other ethernet traffic, power supplies, optical alternatives, switch quality, location of components, earthing and screening all make a considerable difference. With some of these aspects optimised, cheap CAT 5 seems to be the "best" cable.

With the above issues optimised, my system - to my own ears - is noticeably enhanced. So before upgrading (which will be harder now because of the Katalyst catastrophe) make sure you get the best out of what you have.

Donuk beautiful downtown York
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