upgrade path

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-03 11:12With some sources and power amplifiers, resistor based passive pre-amplifiers are a disaster. This is most likely to apply with certain phono stages. With many systems, especially those with digital sources, resistor based passive pre-amps are the most tuneful.
This may make sense in a sound- and compensation-oriented way of listening, but when judging musical performance with the Tune Method, what you're describing is nonsense.
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-03 11:12 Linn Klimax KDS's are no better in terms of tunefulness than CD players / DAC's that can be bought for under £100.

Linn M140's are relatively untuneful speakers. Especially when playing music that features bass instruments.
It's bonkers preserving the tune with your source and amplification and then chucking it out in the final stage with the speakers.
The Tune Method and Source First are mentioned in the rules of this forum. Apparently you ignored the rules when deciding to contribute. I suggest you read them again and decide whether you're on the right forum.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by OscarH »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-03 13:37
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-03 11:12With some sources and power amplifiers, resistor based passive pre-amplifiers are a disaster. This is most likely to apply with certain phono stages. With many systems, especially those with digital sources, resistor based passive pre-amps are the most tuneful.
This may make sense in a sound- and compensation-oriented way of listening, but when judging musical performance with the Tune Method, what you're describing is nonsense.
Fredrik,

I’ll jump in out of curiosity and for my own learning...

Is it your view that passive preamps are inherently flawed?

One might be led to think that omitting the gain stage would allow for a simpler design and that attenuation could be done in a musical way?

As I said, I’m just trying to learn something.

Also well aware that this was not the original topic.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

Yes, I think that passive preamps are inherently flawed. It's not a question of how well they're made but that they lower the volume by resistive division. This causes the output impedance to be high instead of low. And that is not a good thing.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

fatjulio wrote: 2020-11-02 08:46
Eli7 wrote: 2020-11-02 06:32
fatjulio wrote: 2020-11-02 01:30 Can you expand further on what you found with the placement of the router and switch?

I hope yes. Do you have any ideas?
I haven't done much with those components, they're sitting on old phone book's on the floor (carpet). I have some skeets I'm not using, maybe I should put them underneath?
Yes, definately put the skeets underneath the router and/or underneath the switch to see what works best.
Please keep in mind, the skeets works for my setup - possibly it can be different in your setup.
First I tried to put the router in my second Hifi Rack with and without skeets, then I tried to put it on an IKEA Axamo table (the legendary LP12 table) also with and without skeets. But the best alternative for me ist when the router stands on a bedside table in massive wood with a marble table top, whereby the four skeets are put under the router feet. The best position for my netgear switch is in my Hifi rack, whereby the switch stands on the skeets.
As you see, it is not easy to find the best position, and my solution might not work as well for your setup.
MDSM3 / Netgear GS 108T-200 / BJC Cat 6a / K200 (Lejonklou Cut K400) /
M140
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

beck wrote: 2020-11-02 08:55 My motto: It is all vibration! :-)
I see it exactly the same way - it is all vibration, including ourselves! :-)

How can it be, that the postion of the router and the network switch has such a big influence on the way we are touched by music? What do we really know, and is it really possible for us to understand it all? Maybe it is about quantum-mecanical effects...
Last edited by Eli7 on 2020-11-04 09:14, edited 2 times in total.
MDSM3 / Netgear GS 108T-200 / BJC Cat 6a / K200 (Lejonklou Cut K400) /
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

Eli7 wrote: 2020-11-03 19:28
fatjulio wrote: 2020-11-02 08:46
Eli7 wrote: 2020-11-02 06:32


I hope yes. Do you have any ideas?
I haven't done much with those components, they're sitting on old phone book's on the floor (carpet). I have some skeets I'm not using, maybe I should put them underneath?
Yes, definately put the skeets underneath the router and/or underneath the switch to see what works best.
Please keep in mind, the skeets works for my setup - possibly it can be different in your setup.
First I tried to put the router in my second Hifi Rack with and without skeets, then I tried to put it on an IKEA Axamo table (the legendary LP12 table) also with and without skeets. But the best alternative for me ist when the router stands on a bedside table in massive wood with a marble table top, whereby the four skeets are put under the router feet. The best position for my netgear switch is in my Hifi rack, whereby the switch stands on the skeets.
As you see, it is not easy to find the best position, and my solution might not work as well for your setup.
Can you post videos of the differences Eli7, please?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

Spannko wrote: 2020-11-03 13:10 That appears to be an interesting turnaround lindsayt! Has something happened or have you discovered something new which has challenged your original feelings about the KDS?
What do you think were my original feelings on the KDS?

And on what basis have you formed your opinions on my original feelings on the KDS?
EG can you provide links (via PM would be fine).

Are you sure you haven't mixed me up with someone else?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by donuk »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-03 18:43 Yes, I think that passive preamps are inherently flawed. It's not a question of how well they're made but that they lower the volume by resistive division. This causes the output impedance to be high instead of low. And that is not a good thing.
It may be that passive preamps do not sound good, but what you are saying is wrong. Output impedance do not have to be high. It depends how the resister divider is configured.

I will agree that passive preamps result in variable output impedance, but these can be kept within the acceptable range of the power amplifier with little imagination.

I think your argument would be better made if you said that active preamplifiers were able to present a reasonably constant output impedance which is better for SQ across a wide range of volume settings.

Best
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

donuk wrote: 2020-11-06 21:24 I think your argument would be better made if you said that active preamplifiers were able to present a reasonably constant output impedance which is better for SQ across a wide range of volume settings.
Thank your for that clarification Don. That's exactly why active preamps are better than passive.

I'm interested in how you'd configure the passive resistor divider to make it high impedance for the source and low impedance for the power amp. Please explain.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-06 21:08
Spannko wrote: 2020-11-03 13:10 That appears to be an interesting turnaround lindsayt! Has something happened or have you discovered something new which has challenged your original feelings about the KDS?
What do you think were my original feelings on the KDS?

And on what basis have you formed your opinions on my original feelings on the KDS?
EG can you provide links (via PM would be fine).

Are you sure you haven't mixed me up with someone else?
Yes, sorry lindsayt. I’ve had another senior moment - a bit like when I put the milk in the juice cupboard rather than the fridge!
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-03 13:37
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-03 11:12With some sources and power amplifiers, resistor based passive pre-amplifiers are a disaster. This is most likely to apply with certain phono stages. With many systems, especially those with digital sources, resistor based passive pre-amps are the most tuneful.
This may make sense in a sound- and compensation-oriented way of listening, but when judging musical performance with the Tune Method, what you're describing is nonsense.
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-03 11:12 Linn Klimax KDS's are no better in terms of tunefulness than CD players / DAC's that can be bought for under £100.

Linn M140's are relatively untuneful speakers. Especially when playing music that features bass instruments.
It's bonkers preserving the tune with your source and amplification and then chucking it out in the final stage with the speakers.
The Tune Method and Source First are mentioned in the rules of this forum. Apparently you ignored the rules when deciding to contribute. I suggest you read them again and decide whether you're on the right forum.
What I'm describing on passive pre-amps vs active pre-amps is not nonsense at all.
It's based on extensive listening tests using the tunedem method.

Many sources have the voltage to push the signal through a stepped attenuator and into the input section of a power amplifer without detriment to the tune.
When you have that situation, passing the signal through transistors with a feedback circuit cannot enhance the tune.
Garbage in, garbage out. Also garbage in the signal path, garbage out.


I have not ignored the rules of this forum at all in this thread.


Source first applies in terms of tunefuleness.
Most tuneful recording, followed by most tuneful source, followed by most tuneful pre-amp, followed by most tunefule power amp, followed by most tuneful speakers as the order of importance in building a system makes a lot of sense.

When it comes to the most tuneful source, there is no correlation whatsoever between price and tunefulness when comparing a Linn KDS against certain cherry picked CD players and DAC's with linear power supplies.
This is something that anyone can make their own mind up on, by doing their own listening tests.

I realise that this may be shocking news to some. To hear that thousands of pounds invested in a KDS does NOT buy you more preservation of the tune than when you buy right at under £100.
Just because a Linn KDS is hugely expensive, that doesn't give it the God given right to be more tuneful than something else you can buy for 1% of the price.

It may also be shocking news to some to hear that passive resistor based pre-amps ARE more tuneful than active pre-amps - in the right system.

But that's what I've found with my extensive listening tests, using tunedem method.
Listening tests, which anyone here can replicate.

Source first makes sense. And tunedem is a perfectly valid way to evaluate hi-fi. But there is no correlation between getting World Class tunefulness at each stage of the chain and what you have to pay to get it.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

Please specify what sub £100 source you think beats a KDS, lindsayt. Then we understand that you're not talking total nonsense.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by donuk »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-06 21:43
Thank your for that clarification Don. That's exactly why active preamps are better than passive.

I'm interested in how you'd configure the passive resistor divider to make it high impedance for the source and low impedance for the power amp. Please explain.
Hi Fredrick, I am sure we must be misunderstanding each other.
But
Get a potentiometer (variable resistance) of 10k ohms.
Connect the left terminal to source output.
Connect the right hand terminal to common ground (signal earth).
Connect the wiper (centre terminal) to the input of the power amp.

Now unless you are setting the potentiometer for loud volumes the source will see a higher impedance than the power amp.
It may well be necessary to add series resistances to prevent excessive impedance loads.

As I pointed out, and I will concede, this non-linearity does nothing for the SQ, which will probably change with volume settings.

Don
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-06 23:54 Please specify what sub £100 source you think beats a KDS, lindsayt. Then we understand that you're not talking total nonsense.
For inspiration on where to start for digital sources at sensible money, this page is a good starting point:http://www.lampizator.eu/lampizator/CD_ ... nking.html
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Charlie1 »

Surprised to see the Cambridge CD3 on that Web page. I made the mistake of buying one in the late 80s without dem (based on a magazine review) and to this day it remains the most boring HiFi component I ever owned. I didn't know about musicality back then and couldn't understand why some of my favourite music sounded so laboured and boring. Agree it had a nice warm cosy sound though.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

donuk wrote: 2020-11-07 09:32Hi Fredrick, I am sure we must be misunderstanding each other.
But
Get a potentiometer (variable resistance) of 10k ohms.
Connect the left terminal to source output.
Connect the right hand terminal to common ground (signal earth).
Connect the wiper (centre terminal) to the input of the power amp.

Now unless you are setting the potentiometer for loud volumes the source will see a higher impedance than the power amp.
It may well be necessary to add series resistances to prevent excessive impedance loads.

As I pointed out, and I will concede, this non-linearity does nothing for the SQ, which will probably change with volume settings
It's not a matter of misunderstanding, but that we are on different levels. You are unaware of the importance of impedances, I am not.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-07 10:06
lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-06 23:54 Please specify what sub £100 source you think beats a KDS, lindsayt. Then we understand that you're not talking total nonsense.
For inspiration on where to start for digital sources at sensible money, this page is a good starting point:http://www.lampizator.eu/lampizator/CD_ ... nking.html
I didn't ask for inspiration. I asked you to specify a sub £100 source that beats KDS.

Now please do that.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2020-11-06 21:56
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-06 21:08
Spannko wrote: 2020-11-03 13:10 That appears to be an interesting turnaround lindsayt! Has something happened or have you discovered something new which has challenged your original feelings about the KDS?
What do you think were my original feelings on the KDS?

And on what basis have you formed your opinions on my original feelings on the KDS?
EG can you provide links (via PM would be fine).

Are you sure you haven't mixed me up with someone else?
Yes, sorry lindsayt. I’ve had another senior moment - a bit like when I put the milk in the juice cupboard rather than the fridge!
WTH is a juice cupboard?
I know that tune
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

Lego wrote: 2020-11-07 16:03
Spannko wrote: 2020-11-06 21:56
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-06 21:08
What do you think were my original feelings on the KDS?

And on what basis have you formed your opinions on my original feelings on the KDS?
EG can you provide links (via PM would be fine).

Are you sure you haven't mixed me up with someone else?
Yes, sorry lindsayt. I’ve had another senior moment - a bit like when I put the milk in the juice cupboard rather than the fridge!
WTH is a juice cupboard?
It’s the cupboard where one keeps ones fruit juices. Doesn’t every one have one?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko wrote: 2020-11-07 17:46
Lego wrote: 2020-11-07 16:03
Spannko wrote: 2020-11-06 21:56

Yes, sorry lindsayt. I’ve had another senior moment - a bit like when I put the milk in the juice cupboard rather than the fridge!
WTH is a juice cupboard?
It’s the cupboard where one keeps ones fruit juices. Doesn’t every one have one?
Like Lego, I've never heard of one. Mine just go in the fridge or the pantry depending on whether they need refridgeration.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-11-07 21:12
Spannko wrote: 2020-11-07 17:46
Lego wrote: 2020-11-07 16:03 WTH is a juice cupboard?
It’s the cupboard where one keeps ones fruit juices. Doesn’t every one have one?
Like Lego, I've never heard of one. Mine just go in the fridge or the pantry depending on whether they need refridgeration.
How very strange!
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Re: upgrade path

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko wrote: 2020-11-07 21:24
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-11-07 21:12
Spannko wrote: 2020-11-07 17:46

It’s the cupboard where one keeps ones fruit juices. Doesn’t every one have one?
Like Lego, I've never heard of one. Mine just go in the fridge or the pantry depending on whether they need refridgeration.
How very strange!
Maybe a photo would help?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Charlie1 »

We use a juice cupboard as well. It's right next to the toffee draw.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-07 12:28
lindsayt wrote: 2020-11-07 10:06
lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-06 23:54 Please specify what sub £100 source you think beats a KDS, lindsayt. Then we understand that you're not talking total nonsense.
For inspiration on where to start for digital sources at sensible money, this page is a good starting point:http://www.lampizator.eu/lampizator/CD_ ... nking.html
I didn't ask for inspiration. I asked you to specify a sub £100 source that beats KDS.

Now please do that.
Which of the digital sources in the category ZERO, that can be bought for under £100, from the link that I provided, have you, or anyone else reading this compared against a Linn KDS?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-11-07 21:57 We use a juice cupboard as well. It's right next to the toffee draw.
😂🤣😂
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