upgrade path

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Tendaberry
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Tendaberry »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-01-02 21:01 It's like a broken record, isn't it? (the SL, I mean... )
Exactly, it's like they aren't playing in a room together with the Technics. No thanks!
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

I had the opportunity to hear a new Majik LP12 / Trampolin Majik DSM4 / K200 on Majik 140. I was also able to hear the new Majik LP12 compared to its predecessor Majik LP12 / without Trampolin.

The new LP12 sounded very nice, but was much less musically engaged. I had more fun with the predecessor. But the new one only had a few hours on the clock. So it's not really meaningful. It is also not clear whether he had the correct torque settings.

What causes me problems is that I did not want to listen to music longer with the new LP12 or the old LP12. Basically a few titles were enough and I had enough.

That makes me think a lot. I am wondering about.

A quick look back. 20 years ago I had the decisive aha effect. I heard a small Naim system at my dealer, consisting of Nait 3R / CD3.5 / Credos. I was so excited. The music was so engaging, so incredibly lively and engaging that I bought it all right away. I have been so happy for over 10 years. The system played in 2 living rooms of very different sizes. Although it made them sound a little different, the musicality was always there. I often listened to music for several hours at a time and found it hard to tear myself away. I was addicted to music.
Later, after 10 years of great satisfaction, I made the mistake of doing upgrades. Naim CD2, CDX, NAC 72 / Hicap / NAP 140 and NAP250 followed. The Credos stayed, I liked them very much.

Unfortunately, the joy of listening to music disappeared with the upgrades. The bigger Naims worked much worse for me. The bigger Naim amplifiers went back and a Nait2 came into the house. CDX / Nait2 / Credos were very musical in the new apartment, but the sound was unacceptable as I don't have solid walls in the attic. The Credos absolutely need a solid back wall to function properly.
Eventually I sold everything and now I'm with Linn.

Whatever I do, I just don't get that lasting satisfaction from before.
I wonder why that is?

Maybe my ears don't work anymore?
Maybe I just don't need music anymore?
Is it just a phase of life? However, the dissatisfaction has been around for around 10 years.
I am somewhat at a loss ...

Has any of you experienced a similar phase? What was the key to success?

I look forward to a few thoughts from you.
Last edited by Eli7 on 2021-01-10 13:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by beck »

I am sure that you are not alone Eli7.

What we are trying in the playground is to teach each other what to listen for so that we do not end up where you and many others have ended up.

It is not easy at all but we are getting there. I for one am completely satisfied with my lowfi setup. It makes me smile and remember my teenage years full of great music.

I was lucky with my first Linn system from the late eighties and when I finally tried to upgrade my system I notised that my engagement in the music disappeared so I started my own investigation.

That lead me to this forum and the rest is history.


You have to regain trust in your own judgement. You cannot trust those who are trying to sell you the latest and greatest no matter what company we are talking about.

The emotional content of recorded music is very fragile.

Get into the game and start listening with your whole body, not just your brain......................
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

Hello Beck, I am glad to hear from you. I really appreciate your contributions. Somehow I feel connected to you ...


The problem is that in the past few years I haven't heard a system that moves me permanently, that has triggered the wow factor from earlier times. I have many friends and acquaintances who are enthusiastic about music / hi-fi. And so I heard a lot of systems. Nothing for me.

Wait, one system was amazing. It was Christmas Eve with my friends. These have nothing to do with hi-fi. A cheap LG mini system was playing digital music in the background. We talked very lively. Then the presents came. Every year I gave them LPs for Christmas and birthdays in the hope that they would get a record player and a "decent" system. More than a joke, my friend was given a small record player. One universe, uses 25 euros. The thing was quickly put on a chair and plugged in, and then music played in the background again. But this time from LP! What happened? I could no longer properly follow our conversation. Again and again my attention was drawn to music. It was amazing, amazingly musical. I said nothing more, just heard the music. I asked the others if they felt the same way. They confirmed what I learned. The music heard through this miserable system with exaggerated basses and exaggerated highs was so much fun that we listened devoutly in parts.

So there is hope.
Last edited by Eli7 on 2021-01-10 14:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by beck »

Eli7 wrote: 2021-01-10 14:27 ..................Again and again my attention was drawn to music. It was amazing, amazingly musical. I said nothing more, just heard the music. I asked the others if they felt the same way. They confirmed what I learned. The music heard through this miserable system with exaggerated basses and exaggerated highs was so much fun that we listened devoutly in parts.

So there is hope.
Yes, there is hope.

You know what you want from a system but much of what is on the marked these days are not for you (us).

I think you need to start from scratch and look around on this forum for inspiration. Build a small passive system that makes you fall in love with music again.

Keep that 25 euro system in your mind and build on that experience.................
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Re: upgrade path

Post by OscarH »

Eli7,

Do you think it’s a hifi problem or a music problem?

Could it be that you’re fed up hearing the same old things and struggle to discover new (to you) exciting music?

Just a theory...
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

Yes, I will start over. Maybe again with a Nait 3R as a heart I loved this one.


Just a thought. I think what I miss with all the systems is vibration. I call it that because I can't explain it better. They sound dead. For example, when a cello is playing it vibrates for me and I vibrate with it. Naim Nait 1 and Nait 3R (in connection with the Credos) had this quality. For me they convey a lifelike, living vibration.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

OscarH wrote: 2021-01-10 15:00 Eli7,

Do you think it’s a hifi problem or a music problem?

Could it be that you’re fed up hearing the same old things and struggle to discover new (to you) exciting music?

Just a theory...

I am no longer so touched by music, new or old. I do not know why. Maybe I just need a break from all of this ...
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Re: upgrade path

Post by beck »

You are not the problem. Your system is.

I like your cello example. I think I know what you are talking about. The physical aspect of listening to music. I feel the same way.

I have just listened to some Nait3R videos on youtube and I can definately hear what you like about that amp.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

I also listened to a few videos. I recognized what I like so much about the Nait 3, my heart beat faster with joy. I also recognized what I don't like about the Nait 1, although I appreciate it very much ...
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Re: upgrade path

Post by beck »

Eli7 wrote: 2021-01-11 07:38 I also listened to a few videos. I recognized what I like so much about the Nait 3, my heart beat faster with joy. I also recognized what I don't like about the Nait 1, although I appreciate it very much ...
Not much to think about. You now have a plan. Build a passive system around a Nait3R! :-)
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Charlie1 »

Eli7 wrote: 2021-01-10 15:15 Yes, I will start over. Maybe again with a Nait 3R as a heart I loved this one.
I agree with you and beck and would also encourage you to follow your heart / instincts on this one. I've been in a similar boat and am now far happier than I've been the past 15 years. I get so much more pleasure out of listening to music. Sometimes all the knowledge and experience and theory cannot explain why something works so well for you as an individual.

It might not all be down to the system btw. Some of it could be the listening room, for example, but a safe bet is to get back the system you enjoyed so much and take it from there.

Sharing clips on the Playground thread may also help. I often struggle to make decisions in my own system but usually find it quite easy to chose between someone else's. I think there is always some preference in our mind even when we think not and it can interfere with our judgement.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

Today I had the opportunity to hear an LP12 again. It was the Majik LP12 / Jelco again. The Majik LP12 / Krane was no longer in operation because the crane had a fault. The bad impression of the Majik LP12 / Krane last time is probably due to this.
Also from the party was a Cambridge Azur 851 Amp, Dynaudio Evok 10 and this time with LEJONKLOU new Slipsik.

Wow, I listened to 4 LP pages and couldn't get enough. Unfortunately there was no more time.
What great music! It was so exciting. Just great.

I'll try to listen again next week and hope that the impression repeats itself.

But I already say thank you for the great experience! Thanks Fredrik, I had almost given up hope.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

Spannko wrote: 2021-01-01 20:07 Here’s a comparison between a Rega P3 and a Technics SL1200 turntable. The reviewer is focused on the sound differences, but we can do our own tune based comparison.

https://youtu.be/ogiWnw5X0ZI
Replace the mediocre stock arm on the Technics with something better, eg OL modded rega arm or Alphason arm.
Replace the 1042 cartridge with something better, EG Ortofon Rondo cartridge.
Avoid having the 1210 on a floor mounted stand right next to a speaker - eg floor mouned stand in the far corner of the room from the speakers.

And you will have something that costs far less than the £3450 that a new Majik LP12 costs.
I am also confident that you'd have a more tuneful sounding vinyl source with the Technics + decent arm + decent cartridge + proper positioning and support route than the Majik LP12.

If you are comparing a 1210 with stock arm and 1042 cartridge on a floor stand next to a speaker then all bets are off.

Just because some youtuber has made no effort to get the best out of a 1210, doesn't mean to say that anyone should copy him.
Last edited by lindsayt on 2021-01-18 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

sktn77a wrote: 2021-01-01 19:53
lindsayt wrote: 2021-01-01 12:04 A brand new Majik LP12 for £3450 comes with
a below par motor somewhat agree
a below par power supply strongly agree
a below par arm somewhat agree but we need to listen to the Krane
a below par cartridge somewhat agree
a below par platter ???????
See above in bold italic. Bear in mind the Majik LP12 now comes with the same plinth, the same top plate, same bearing, same inner platter and same outer platter as the Klimax, and a similar subchassis to the Akurate. It's clearly an entry level product but, unlike most entry level products, can be upgraded as time goes on.
The platter is below par on the Majik LP12 and the Klimax LP12.

For a turntable that relies on the flywheel effect there's not enough mass to it, especially on the outer radius for it to have a really good flywheel effect.

It's also shaped like a bell and has no damping apart from the felt mat and the vinyl record on top of it.

And yes, you are 100% right in that the Majik LP12 clearly is an entry level product. But the brand new retail price is NOT entry level is it? At £3450.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

Eli7 wrote: 2021-01-15 17:26 Today I had the opportunity to hear an LP12 again. It was the Majik LP12 / Jelco again. The Majik LP12 / Krane was no longer in operation because the crane had a fault. The bad impression of the Majik LP12 / Krane last time is probably due to this.
Also from the party was a Cambridge Azur 851 Amp, Dynaudio Evok 10 and this time with LEJONKLOU new Slipsik.

Wow, I listened to 4 LP pages and couldn't get enough. Unfortunately there was no more time.
What great music! It was so exciting. Just great.

I'll try to listen again next week and hope that the impression repeats itself.

But I already say thank you for the great experience! Thanks Fredrik, I had almost given up hope.
Hi Eli7!

I read all your posts in this thread and what strikes me is that when you've been really engaged by the music, it's always been a vinyl spinning. Is that correct? If so, I think we can conclude that the digital source in your current system is simply not good enough for you.

Then the question become whether you want to dive into the world of vinyl or whether you should stay focused on the digital. I've been working hard on digital replay during the pandemic and it has potential to become much better than what's currently available. Vinyl is already great and also a hobby in itself when it comes to collecting, handling and enjoying. Which of these paths would you prefer if for a moment we assume that they have an equal ability to enrich your life with musical thrills and bliss?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

Hello Fredrik,
with the same musical thrill and bliss, I would clearly go for digital.

Does your suggestion mean that we can hope for a streamer from you?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

lindsayt wrote: 2021-01-18 13:10
Spannko wrote: 2021-01-01 20:07 Here’s a comparison between a Rega P3 and a Technics SL1200 turntable. The reviewer is focused on the sound differences, but we can do our own tune based comparison.

https://youtu.be/ogiWnw5X0ZI
Replace the mediocre stock arm on the Technics with something better, eg OL modded rega arm or Alphason arm.
Replace the 1042 cartridge with something better, EG Ortofon Rondo cartridge.
Avoid having the 1210 on a floor mounted stand right next to a speaker - eg floor mouned stand in the far corner of the room from the speakers.

And you will have something that costs far less than the £3450 that a new Majik LP12 costs.
I am also confident that you'd have a more tuneful sounding vinyl source with the Technics + decent arm + decent cartridge + proper positioning and support route than the Majik LP12.

If you are comparing a 1210 with stock arm and 1042 cartridge on a floor stand next to a speaker then all bets are off.

Just because some youtuber has made no effort to get the best out of a 1210, doesn't mean to say that anyone should copy him.
I’ve heard one of those modded 1210’s (new main bearing, Jelco arm, don’t recall the cartridge). It was still shit. In fact, it was shittier than a shitty stick after a long day at the bath house. As for exploring other options, I’d rather stick pins in my eyes.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-01-18 14:17
Eli7 wrote: 2021-01-15 17:26 Today I had the opportunity to hear an LP12 again. It was the Majik LP12 / Jelco again. The Majik LP12 / Krane was no longer in operation because the crane had a fault. The bad impression of the Majik LP12 / Krane last time is probably due to this.
Also from the party was a Cambridge Azur 851 Amp, Dynaudio Evok 10 and this time with LEJONKLOU new Slipsik.

Wow, I listened to 4 LP pages and couldn't get enough. Unfortunately there was no more time.
What great music! It was so exciting. Just great.

I'll try to listen again next week and hope that the impression repeats itself.

But I already say thank you for the great experience! Thanks Fredrik, I had almost given up hope.
Hi Eli7!

I read all your posts in this thread and what strikes me is that when you've been really engaged by the music, it's always been a vinyl spinning. Is that correct? If so, I think we can conclude that the digital source in your current system is simply not good enough for you.

Then the question become whether you want to dive into the world of vinyl or whether you should stay focused on the digital. I've been working hard on digital replay during the pandemic and it has potential to become much better than what's currently available. Vinyl is already great and also a hobby in itself when it comes to collecting, handling and enjoying. Which of these paths would you prefer if for a moment we assume that they have an equal ability to enrich your life with musical thrills and bliss?

A little hint as to why I would choose digital. Much of the music I prefer is unfortunately only available digitally. For example certain recordings of baroque music.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

Eli7 wrote: 2021-01-18 20:59 A little hint as to why I would choose digital. Much of the music I prefer is unfortunately only available digitally. For example certain recordings of baroque music.
OK, that makes the decision much easier. Then digital it is!
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-01-19 01:09
Eli7 wrote: 2021-01-18 20:59 A little hint as to why I would choose digital. Much of the music I prefer is unfortunately only available digitally. For example certain recordings of baroque music.
OK, that makes the decision much easier. Then digital it is!
The decision is by no means easy for me. Currently available digital sources are not good enough for me. As you rightly noticed, analog works better for me.
So I'll go for an LP12 / Slipsik. Unless you bring out a streamer. Is a streamer coming from you soon?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by OscarH »

While you are quite likely to find analog ultimately better, your needs seem fundamentally incompatible with a single source approach. Foregoing a large selection of music you enjoy doesn’t seem worth it.

Fredrik’s hint at further advances in streaming is intriguing, but the hakai is already a very competent offering. As late as yesterday I had a most enjoyable listening session with mine.

It’s also cheaper, especially as you already have most of the streaming infrastructure, than essentially any individual part of the LP12, so might be worth considering for your digital recordings.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

Yes, the HAKAI might be the solution.

Today I was a little in the HAKAI area. Just reading the technical terms made me dizzy. The thought of building one yourself seems like a bad joke to me.
So the question is: Which amiable person would be willing to build one for me?

However, I'm afraid I am not free from doubt. A HAKAI is highly praised, but also an ADS3 and the latter was not for me.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

Eli7 wrote: 2021-01-20 18:59 Yes, the HAKAI might be the solution.

Today I was a little in the HAKAI area. Just reading the technical terms made me dizzy. The thought of building one yourself seems like a bad joke to me.
So the question is: Which amiable person would be willing to build one for me?

However, I'm afraid I am not free from doubt. A HAKAI is highly praised, but also an ADS3 and the latter was not for me.
Have you heard the KDS?
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Eli7 »

Unfortunately I haven't been able to hear a KDS yet.
The local dealer has a Klimax LP12 but no Klimax Streamer.

Will try to listen to one.
My gut tells me that the KDS2 has something that the ADS3 doesn't.

Too bad, I was so hoping that Fredrik would surprise us with a streamer.
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