upgrade path

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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lindsayt
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-12-20 12:26
lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-20 12:11 A brand new Majik LP12 offers terrible tunefulness for the money.
Apparently you have no clue what we mean by 'tunefulness' on this forum.

Why not attempt to learn what this forum is about?
Oh come off it!

£3450 for a brand new Majik LP12! It's a joke.

Quite easily demonstrably so. Using tunedem.

All you need is a cherry picked used turntable arm and cartridge combination to realise how terrible a brand new Majik LP12 is when it comes to the tunefulness for the money.

This is nothing to do with my understanding of what the forum is about. It's everything to do with how tuneful a brand new Majik LP12 is compared to what else you can buy for far less money.

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it.
I'm suggesting that anyone reading this does their own listening tests. Which may involve getting together with owners of certain cherry picked non Linn turntables. Or taking a punt on something on ebay that's selling at the right price. At a price that you could sell on for a small profit if it doesn't work out for you.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-20 16:44
lejonklou wrote: 2020-12-20 12:26
lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-20 12:11 A brand new Majik LP12 offers terrible tunefulness for the money.
Apparently you have no clue what we mean by 'tunefulness' on this forum.

Why not attempt to learn what this forum is about?
Oh come off it!

£3450 for a brand new Majik LP12! It's a joke.

Quite easily demonstrably so. Using tunedem.

All you need is a cherry picked used turntable arm and cartridge combination to realise how terrible a brand new Majik LP12 is when it comes to the tunefulness for the money.

This is nothing to do with my understanding of what the forum is about. It's everything to do with how tuneful a brand new Majik LP12 is compared to what else you can buy for far less money.

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it.
I'm suggesting that anyone reading this does their own listening tests. Which may involve getting together with owners of certain cherry picked non Linn turntables. Or taking a punt on something on ebay that's selling at the right price. At a price that you could sell on for a small profit if it doesn't work out for you.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lejonklou »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-20 16:44
lejonklou wrote: 2020-12-20 12:26
lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-20 12:11 A brand new Majik LP12 offers terrible tunefulness for the money.
Apparently you have no clue what we mean by 'tunefulness' on this forum.

Why not attempt to learn what this forum is about?
Oh come off it!

£3450 for a brand new Majik LP12! It's a joke.

Quite easily demonstrably so. Using tunedem.

All you need is a cherry picked used turntable arm and cartridge combination to realise how terrible a brand new Majik LP12 is when it comes to the tunefulness for the money.

This is nothing to do with my understanding of what the forum is about. It's everything to do with how tuneful a brand new Majik LP12 is compared to what else you can buy for far less money.

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it.
I'm suggesting that anyone reading this does their own listening tests. Which may involve getting together with owners of certain cherry picked non Linn turntables. Or taking a punt on something on ebay that's selling at the right price. At a price that you could sell on for a small profit if it doesn't work out for you.
It not enough to write "using tunedem". You also have to do it.

Your claims are silly and therefore intentionally vague. We have a massive collective experience of turntables in here, so if you mention any particular "cherry picked" model, you're likely to get some informed views of it. Probably from someone that actually know how to use the Tune Method.

Frankly, I've had enough of this. The LP12 is perhaps the most cherished piece of HiFi equipment on this forum. It's one thing if a member says "I think turntable X is really good and better value than a Majik LP12" - that's something to debate. But to write "A brand new Majik LP12 offers terrible tunefulness for the money" just shows that don't know what you're talking about.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by OscarH »

The “Absolute bargains” Thread is a bit low on turntables. I’m sure everybody would be very interested if there was a genuine killer to be had in the £500 range. So far actually naming products has not characterized this thread...

The first turntable I bought as an adult was an old Rega Planar 3 at about £120. While that was arguably good value for money, lindsayt is indicating completely different levels of performance for not THAT much more...
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-12-20 17:16
lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-20 16:44
lejonklou wrote: 2020-12-20 12:26
Apparently you have no clue what we mean by 'tunefulness' on this forum.

Why not attempt to learn what this forum is about?
Oh come off it!

£3450 for a brand new Majik LP12! It's a joke.

Quite easily demonstrably so. Using tunedem.

All you need is a cherry picked used turntable arm and cartridge combination to realise how terrible a brand new Majik LP12 is when it comes to the tunefulness for the money.

This is nothing to do with my understanding of what the forum is about. It's everything to do with how tuneful a brand new Majik LP12 is compared to what else you can buy for far less money.

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it.
I'm suggesting that anyone reading this does their own listening tests. Which may involve getting together with owners of certain cherry picked non Linn turntables. Or taking a punt on something on ebay that's selling at the right price. At a price that you could sell on for a small profit if it doesn't work out for you.
It not enough to write "using tunedem". You also have to do it.

Your claims are silly and therefore intentionally vague. We have a massive collective experience of turntables in here, so if you mention any particular "cherry picked" model, you're likely to get some informed views of it. Probably from someone that actually know how to use the Tune Method.

Frankly, I've had enough of this. The LP12 is perhaps the most cherished piece of HiFi equipment on this forum. It's one thing if a member says "I think turntable X is really good and better value than a Majik LP12" - that's something to debate. But to write "A brand new Majik LP12 offers terrible tunefulness for the money" just shows that don't know what you're talking about.
Pioneer PL71 with an Ortofon SPU
Sony 6750 with a decent MC cartridge
Lenco's that have been fettled and fitted with decent arms and cartridges
Garrard 401's and 301's with decent plinths arms and cartridges
Technics 1210 with an OL modded Rega arm and Ortofon Rondo cartridge
Thorens TD124 with decent arm and MC cartridge.
Technics SP10 with decent plinth arm and MC cartridge.

I'm not including EMT 950, 930, 948 with TSD15 cartridges because whilst they used to be cheaper than brand new Linn Majik LP12's they generally aren't any more.

It's when replaying bass drums, kettle drums, bass's (the stringed instruments used in orchestras and some jazz), bass guitars that the lack of tunefulnes in the Majik LP12 is most apparent. It's a lack that's still there (to a lesser extent) with the Klimax level LP12's that I've auditioned. This lack is most apparent through speakers that can play these instruments relatively tunefully. Which tends to be speakers that are rather different to Linn M140's.
Woolly bass is not tuneful bass. It's not as easy to follow the tune if it sounds like the signal has been passed through a huge wodge of cotton wool, compared with it sounding like the signal has passed through nothing.

I know what tunedem is and I use it.

The LP12 is more tuneful than soulless crap like the Clearaudios that I've heard and the SME 20/12a.
It is also more tuneful than the Regas I've heard. And plasticky, lightweight type Japanese turntables.

The Majik LP12 is not more tuneful than a fairly wide range of good condition, properly set up heavier weight, non plasticky idler and direct drive turntables with decent arms and cartridges.

Not in my experience. With the lack of tunefulness being most apparent in the bass. Especially when played through bass tuneful speakers.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Lego »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-21 07:52
lejonklou wrote: 2020-12-20 17:16
lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-20 16:44

Oh come off it!

£3450 for a brand new Majik LP12! It's a joke.

Quite easily demonstrably so. Using tunedem.

All you need is a cherry picked used turntable arm and cartridge combination to realise how terrible a brand new Majik LP12 is when it comes to the tunefulness for the money.

This is nothing to do with my understanding of what the forum is about. It's everything to do with how tuneful a brand new Majik LP12 is compared to what else you can buy for far less money.

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it.
I'm suggesting that anyone reading this does their own listening tests. Which may involve getting together with owners of certain cherry picked non Linn turntables. Or taking a punt on something on ebay that's selling at the right price. At a price that you could sell on for a small profit if it doesn't work out for you.
It not enough to write "using tunedem". You also have to do it.

Your claims are silly and therefore intentionally vague. We have a massive collective experience of turntables in here, so if you mention any particular "cherry picked" model, you're likely to get some informed views of it. Probably from someone that actually know how to use the Tune Method.

Frankly, I've had enough of this. The LP12 is perhaps the most cherished piece of HiFi equipment on this forum. It's one thing if a member says "I think turntable X is really good and better value than a Majik LP12" - that's something to debate. But to write "A brand new Majik LP12 offers terrible tunefulness for the money" just shows that don't know what you're talking about.
Pioneer PL71 with an Ortofon SPU
Sony 6750 with a decent MC cartridge
Lenco's that have been fettled and fitted with decent arms and cartridges
Garrard 401's and 301's with decent plinths arms and cartridges
Technics 1210 with an OL modded Rega arm and Ortofon Rondo cartridge
Thorens TD124 with decent arm and MC cartridge.
Technics SP10 with decent plinth arm and MC cartridge.

I'm not including EMT 950, 930, 948 with TSD15 cartridges because whilst they used to be cheaper than brand new Linn Majik LP12's they generally aren't any more.

It's when replaying bass drums, kettle drums, bass's (the stringed instruments used in orchestras and some jazz), bass guitars that the lack of tunefulnes in the Majik LP12 is most apparent. It's a lack that's still there (to a lesser extent) with the Klimax level LP12's that I've auditioned. This lack is most apparent through speakers that can play these instruments relatively tunefully. Which tends to be speakers that are rather different to Linn M140's.
Woolly bass is not tuneful bass. It's not as easy to follow the tune if it sounds like the signal has been passed through a huge wodge of cotton wool, compared with it sounding like the signal has passed through nothing.

I know what tunedem is and I use it.

The LP12 is more tuneful than soulless crap like the Clearaudios that I've heard and the SME 20/12a.
It is also more tuneful than the Regas I've heard. And plasticky, lightweight type Japanese turntables.

The Majik LP12 is not more tuneful than a fairly wide range of good condition, properly set up heavier weight, non plasticky idler and direct drive turntables with decent arms and cartridges.

Not in my experience. With the lack of tunefulness being most apparent in the bass. Especially when played through bass tuneful speakers.
is that a fact,what does tune mean and how do you use it?
I know that tune
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Re: upgrade path

Post by donuk »

I think whatever the rights and wrongs of the LP12 and the reliability of folk who insist they use tunedem, we are in danger of straying from the spirit of Christmas.
Life is hard for most of us at the moment.
I know that several regulars of this forum have personal tragedies in their lives to contemplate.

Let's not make it worse.

Donuk beautiful downtown York

PS. Here is a Christmas quiz question for you of a certain age...
For years I have signed my posts "beautiful downtown.....".

Who knows where I stole this from? The winner gets a Christmas kiss safely blown through the ether.......
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Re: upgrade path

Post by springwood64 »

donuk wrote: 2020-12-21 16:50 Who knows where I stole this from?
No idea, but I'm guessing that they weren't singing about York or any beautiful British town centre
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Tendaberry »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-21 07:52 Pioneer PL71 with an Ortofon SPU
Sony 6750 with a decent MC cartridge
Lenco's that have been fettled and fitted with decent arms and cartridges
Garrard 401's and 301's with decent plinths arms and cartridges
Technics 1210 with an OL modded Rega arm and Ortofon Rondo cartridge
Thorens TD124 with decent arm and MC cartridge.
Technics SP10 with decent plinth arm and MC cartridge.
Lots of decent here, I actually want more than decent from my hifi...
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Re: upgrade path

Post by tokenbrit »

donuk wrote: 2020-12-21 16:50 PS. Here is a Christmas quiz question for you of a certain age...
For years I have signed my posts "beautiful downtown.....".

Who knows where I stole this from? The winner gets a Christmas kiss safely blown through the ether.......
So many possibilities - one might say, Lutz to choose from... Happy holidays to you Don :)
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Re: upgrade path

Post by PaulC »

A spicy xmas thread, and not for the faint hearted! Returning to the threads original theme I recently bought a 520 Exaktsystem with ALP12 (+ Harmonihyllan). I'm very happy with the system which replaced my previous Ikemi/Majik/Keilidh system. I was at Tonläget during the summer and I listened to a number of system combinations: KDSM with Anders new prototype Klångedang speakers (not sure what amps he was using, maybe KTwin). I also listened to a 520 and 530 Exaktsystem. Listened also to a ALp12 with the 520. I asked Anders about Entity, and he spoke very positively about it, but unfortunately we didn't have time to listen on this occasion. My immediate experiences were these: The 520 & 530 systems were very musical and very enjoyable to listen to. The KDSM made all of the instruments incredibly distinct and the prototype Klångedangs were astonishingly neutral - the experience was a little unnerving for me coming up from a 90's Linn system I have to say, and I felt much more at home with the 520/530 systems (which Anders suspected I might). My wife joined me for the visit and she was doing her best to look engaged and interested throughout, but I could see that she was struggling to really 'understand' what the whole thing was about, and as time went on she got more and more tired (in the same way I might get if I went clothes shopping with her). Finally Anders played the ALP12 (through the 520 system) and (I kid you not) my wife literally sat up straight with her eyes wide open completely astonished. I was also astonished... A month or so later Anders drove down to Malmö and installed the 520 system with ALP12 (with Adikt instead of Krystal). For me I have no doubt that the ALP12 is more musical, more emotionally engaging (more 'right' more 'alive') than the AHub/Exakt streaming Tidal. Everyone who listens to the system comes to that conclusion. Yet, the AHub/Exakt sounds very musical too, and I happily listen to streamed music. The bottom line is that I am very happy having both, more happy than if I had only streaming or only a record player. I do believe however that the Harmonihyllan is incredibly important for consistency of the systems musicality. I am not sure I would be so satisfied if I was still using my Ikea Lack tables... One final note, the Lp12 has changed the lives of the people who have heard it. One of my teenage sons (who had never even seen an Lp before, never mind heard one) has just bought his first record player and taken the first steps to building his own Lp collection, so enchanted he is by the LP12 (as well as the whole vinyl 'experience'). My eldest son came to visit the other day and left in a state of astonishment/profound inspiration after hearing the LP12 (his brothers had been talking about it, and he wanted to hear it for himself). A friend of mine (old enough to know what an LP is) decided he had to ship his own Lp collection (which had been gathering dust in a cellar for the last 20+ years) from the US to Sweden so he could listen to them again. Fundamentally, and if we for a moment just forget all the discussions about the tune method, Karousel, Exakt etc etc, the LP12 is inspiring my family and friends to (re)become engaged in listening to vinyl, and to really enjoy listening to recorded music, and that is the best 'betyg' (grade) that one can hope to get as a hifi enthusiast. I don't think a single person who I know who has heard the system would speak about the LP12 in any way but 'with wonder'. None of them are (were) hifi enthusiasts when they heard it, but all of them experienced something quite magical.
Last edited by PaulC on 2020-12-22 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Matteo »

Thanks for you story, that describes exactly the same feelings that I have when I listen to the LP12.

The ADSM/3 with Katalyst is very good but the LP12 is simply more musical, especially with the new Karousel .

I’m not a huge fan of the 520’s though.

M.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by u252agz »

PaulC wrote: 2020-12-21 23:09
For me I have no doubt that the ALP12 is more musical, more emotionally engaging (more 'right' more 'alive') than the AHub streaming Tidal. Everyone who listens to the system comes to that conclusion. Yet, the AHub sounds very musical too, and I happily listen to streamed music. The bottom line is that I am very happy having both, more happy than if I had only streaming or only a record player..
I agree - and also need a well installed digital system (preferrably non- exakt with analogue preamp) and a correctly set up LP12 to enable me to enjoy all the music at my disposal.
Kalla/Sag M/Tun M3/242/LP12/Slip7

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Re: upgrade path

Post by Lego »

Matteo wrote: 2020-12-21 23:37 Thanks for you story, that describes exactly the same feelings that I have when I listen to the LP12.

The ADSM/3 with Katalyst is very good but the LP12 is simply more musical, especially with the new Karousel .

I’m not a huge fan of the 520’s though.

M.
Did you get the Karousel upgrade Mat,what differences did you find compared to Cirkus
I know that tune
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Re: upgrade path

Post by lindsayt »

Tendaberry wrote: 2020-12-21 18:59
lindsayt wrote: 2020-12-21 07:52 Pioneer PL71 with an Ortofon SPU
Sony 6750 with a decent MC cartridge
Lenco's that have been fettled and fitted with decent arms and cartridges
Garrard 401's and 301's with decent plinths arms and cartridges
Technics 1210 with an OL modded Rega arm and Ortofon Rondo cartridge
Thorens TD124 with decent arm and MC cartridge.
Technics SP10 with decent plinth arm and MC cartridge.
Lots of decent here, I actually want more than decent from my hifi...
In hi-fi everything is relative. And we are getting into semantics here.

A brand new Majik LP12 for £3450 comes with
a below par motor
a below par power supply
a below par arm
a below par cartridge
a below par platter

All of which add up to it being less tuneful to listen to than plenty of alternatives you can buy (used) for a lot less money.
Because the more tuneful sounding alternatives are at least decent in every respect and not below par in any respect.

And please don't take my word for it. Go and do your own listening tests and make up your own mind.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by springwood64 »

Isn't the Majik platter identical to all LP12 platters?

I've heard some Garrards and Lencos and not been engaged by them. I'd rate my Axis as much more enjoyable.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Matteo »

Lego wrote: 2020-12-31 18:50
Matteo wrote: 2020-12-21 23:37 Thanks for you story, that describes exactly the same feelings that I have when I listen to the LP12.

The ADSM/3 with Katalyst is very good but the LP12 is simply more musical, especially with the new Karousel .

I’m not a huge fan of the 520’s though.

M.
Did you get the Karousel upgrade Mat,what differences did you find compared to Cirkus
My experience of the karousel was that for the first 50/60 hours, the music appeared hyper-detailed but disjointed (similar to the black T-Kable) and with a muddy bass.

After those period, all became very musical.

Compared to Cirkus, the Karousel is more musical with a better bass and lower noise.

M.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by sktn77a »

lindsayt wrote: 2021-01-01 12:04 A brand new Majik LP12 for £3450 comes with
a below par motor somewhat agree
a below par power supply strongly agree
a below par arm somewhat agree but we need to listen to the Krane
a below par cartridge somewhat agree
a below par platter ???????
See above in bold italic. Bear in mind the Majik LP12 now comes with the same plinth, the same top plate, same bearing, same inner platter and same outer platter as the Klimax, and a similar subchassis to the Akurate. It's clearly an entry level product but, unlike most entry level products, can be upgraded as time goes on.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by springwood64 »

sktn77a wrote: 2021-01-01 19:53
lindsayt wrote: 2021-01-01 12:04 A brand new Majik LP12 for £3450 comes with
a below par motor somewhat agree
a below par power supply strongly agree
a below par arm somewhat agree but we need to listen to the Krane
a below par cartridge somewhat agree
a below par platter ???????
See above in bold italic. Bear in mind the Majik LP12 now comes with the same plinth, the same top plate, same bearing, same inner platter and same outer platter as the Klimax, and a similar subchassis to the Akurate. It's clearly an entry level product but, unlike most entry level products, can be upgraded as time goes on.
What do you have in mind for 'par'?
Pete

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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

Here’s a comparison between a Rega P3 and a Technics SL1200 turntable. The reviewer is focused on the sound differences, but we can do our own tune based comparison.

https://youtu.be/ogiWnw5X0ZI
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Re: upgrade path

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote: 2021-01-01 20:07 Here’s a comparison between a Rega P3 and a Technics SL1200 turntable. The reviewer is focused on the sound differences, but we can do our own tune based comparison.

https://youtu.be/ogiWnw5X0ZI
The reviewer represent what I guess to be the majority of hifi buyers.

We can make up our own mind about the comparison as you say Spannko.
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Charlie1 »

Yeah, P3 is making much more sense of the music to my ears.
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Spannko »

I agree. The SL1200 is easily bettered by the lowly P3, never mind an LP12!
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Re: upgrade path

Post by tokenbrit »

It's like a broken record, isn't it? (the SL, I mean... )
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Re: upgrade path

Post by Lego »

Matteo wrote: 2021-01-01 15:32
Lego wrote: 2020-12-31 18:50
Matteo wrote: 2020-12-21 23:37 Thanks for you story, that describes exactly the same feelings that I have when I listen to the LP12.

The ADSM/3 with Katalyst is very good but the LP12 is simply more musical, especially with the new Karousel .

I’m not a huge fan of the 520’s though.

M.
Did you get the Karousel upgrade Mat,what differences did you find compared to Cirkus
My experience of the karousel was that for the first 50/60 hours, the music appeared hyper-detailed but disjointed (similar to the black T-Kable) and with a muddy bass.

After those period, all became very musical.

Compared to Cirkus, the Karousel is more musical with a better bass and lower noise.

M.
Thanks Mat,that's great info.For me you've just as good as killed off the Karousel Konspiracy theory :0)
I know that tune
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