upgrade path

[beck]

So before upgrading (which will be harder now because of the Katalyst catastrophe) make sure you get the best out of what you have.

Thumbs up.

[Spannko]

Especially in the context of it being easy to find speakers that thrash Linn M140's when it comes to tunefulness - with the big proviso that the speakers that I've come across so far that beat M140's most comprehensively are bigger and uglier.

lindsayt,
Which DS firmwares do you find the most musical? Many on this Forum find version 4.53.125 the best. What is your opinion?

Have you ever owned Linn M140s? If so, for how long?

What amps did you use in your Linn M140 system? What amps do you use now? What is your current system?

"Thrash[ing] Linn M140s when it comes to tunefulness" is a bold statement.

This Forum is very open to using comparison recordings and judging them. If you could supply some online demonstrating of what you're hearing in your home (as I have done), we could all learn from your experience.

Ron The Mon

Ron The Mon, after having auditioned the Linn KDS and found it no more tuneful than something I could buy for under £100, can you understand that I had little incentive to explore the most musical firmware?

No I've never owned Linn M140's. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to buy those speakers.

I have 3 main current systems.

Downstairs system:
Studer A807 - which is the most tuneful source I have.
EMT 950
Philips CD753
NVA PSA50
Korneff clone
EV Patrician 800's

AV system:
X Box
Freesat tuner
Denon SR6010
EV Sentry III - main front
Linn Isobarik - front centre
Linn Saras - rear
Heybrook HB1 - top middle
Epson projector and a huge screen.

Bedroom system
EMT 930
Marantz CD48
Pioneer SF700
Coincident Frankenstein prototypes - above 400 hz
Urei 6230 - below 400 hz
Bozak Symphony

I won't be able to supply you with any recordings.
Feel free to try my broad suggestions for yourself.
Not necessarily trying exactly what I've bought. But your own variation on my theme.

Simple inexpensive digital source.
Hugely over-engineered analogue sources.
Resistor based passive pre-amps (which are a disaster in some systems and a revelation in others)
Power amplification matched to the speakers - and really simple with strong power supplies when the speakers are an easy load.
Either high efficiency speakers or medium efficiency sealed box speakers. Not low efficiency slimline ported speakers.

👎🦁🙊😂

[lindsayt]

"Either high efficiency speakers or medium efficiency sealed box speakers. Not low efficiency slimline ported speakers."


. My system went from 98 Db Klipsch F3 floor standers to Isobariks which I think are closer to 85 Db.

Given Klipsch's tendency to exagerate the efficiency spec of their speakers - as measured by Stereophile, The Klipsch F3's are - probably - medium efficiency slimline ported speakers.

The are NOT the sort of speaker that I would ever be interested in.

High efficiency generally comes from large to huge woofers.
8" is small for a woofer.

I would rate Linn Isobariks as at least as tuneful as Linn M140's. How much do you have to pay to get Isobariks these days compared to M140's?

If my Isobariks were the most tuneful speakers in my home, I wouldn't be using just one of them as a centre speaker in my AV system.

[Spannko]

Especially in the context of it being easy to find speakers that thrash Linn M140's when it comes to tunefulness - with the big proviso that the speakers that I've come across so far that beat M140's most comprehensively are bigger and uglier.

lindsayt,
Which DS firmwares do you find the most musical? Many on this Forum find version 4.53.125 the best. What is your opinion?

Have you ever owned Linn M140s? If so, for how long?

What amps did you use in your Linn M140 system? What amps do you use now? What is your current system?

"Thrash[ing] Linn M140s when it comes to tunefulness" is a bold statement.

This Forum is very open to using comparison recordings and judging them. If you could supply some online demonstrating of what you're hearing in your home (as I have done), we could all learn from your experience.

Ron The Mon

Ron The Mon, after having auditioned the Linn KDS and found it no more tuneful than something I could buy for under £100, can you understand that I had little incentive to explore the most musical firmware?

No I've never owned Linn M140's. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to buy those speakers.

I have 3 main current systems.

Downstairs system:
Studer A807 - which is the most tuneful source I have.
EMT 950
Philips CD753
NVA PSA50
Korneff clone
EV Patrician 800's

AV system:
X Box
Freesat tuner
Denon SR6010
EV Sentry III - main front
Linn Isobarik - front centre
Linn Saras - rear
Heybrook HB1 - top middle
Epson projector and a huge screen.

Bedroom system
EMT 930
Marantz CD48
Pioneer SF700
Coincident Frankenstein prototypes - above 400 hz
Urei 6230 - below 400 hz
Bozak Symphony

I won't be able to supply you with any recordings.
Feel free to try my broad suggestions for yourself.
Not necessarily trying exactly what I've bought. But your own variation on my theme.

Simple inexpensive digital source.
Hugely over-engineered analogue sources.
Resistor based passive pre-amps (which are a disaster in some systems and a revelation in others)
Power amplification matched to the speakers - and really simple with strong power supplies when the speakers are an easy load.
Either high efficiency speakers or medium efficiency sealed box speakers. Not low efficiency slimline ported speakers.

Why not?, may I ask! The “playground” is the most frequently visited thread on any audio forum. People love to hear other peoples systems.

[lindsayt]

lindsayt,
Which DS firmwares do you find the most musical? Many on this Forum find version 4.53.125 the best. What is your opinion?

Have you ever owned Linn M140s? If so, for how long?

What amps did you use in your Linn M140 system? What amps do you use now? What is your current system?

"Thrash[ing] Linn M140s when it comes to tunefulness" is a bold statement.

This Forum is very open to using comparison recordings and judging them. If you could supply some online demonstrating of what you're hearing in your home (as I have done), we could all learn from your experience.

Ron The Mon

Ron The Mon, after having auditioned the Linn KDS and found it no more tuneful than something I could buy for under £100, can you understand that I had little incentive to explore the most musical firmware?

No I've never owned Linn M140's. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to buy those speakers.

I have 3 main current systems.

Downstairs system:
Studer A807 - which is the most tuneful source I have.
EMT 950
Philips CD753
NVA PSA50
Korneff clone
EV Patrician 800's

AV system:
X Box
Freesat tuner
Denon SR6010
EV Sentry III - main front
Linn Isobarik - front centre
Linn Saras - rear
Heybrook HB1 - top middle
Epson projector and a huge screen.

Bedroom system
EMT 930
Marantz CD48
Pioneer SF700
Coincident Frankenstein prototypes - above 400 hz
Urei 6230 - below 400 hz
Bozak Symphony

I won't be able to supply you with any recordings.
Feel free to try my broad suggestions for yourself.
Not necessarily trying exactly what I've bought. But your own variation on my theme.

Simple inexpensive digital source.
Hugely over-engineered analogue sources.
Resistor based passive pre-amps (which are a disaster in some systems and a revelation in others)
Power amplification matched to the speakers - and really simple with strong power supplies when the speakers are an easy load.
Either high efficiency speakers or medium efficiency sealed box speakers. Not low efficiency slimline ported speakers.

Why not?, may I ask! The “playground” is the most frequently visited thread on any audio forum. People love to hear other peoples systems.

Because I don't have a reasonable recording system to hand.

It's no skin off my nose what other people choose to buy and keep when it comes to hi-fi equipment. Although I would gently encourage everyone on this forum to try the sort of approach I've tried with an open mind and see how you get on.

I don't have a Linn KDS and Linn M140's easily available to make comparative recordings.

Providing recordings is not a mandatory requirement for participation on this forum.

[Spannko]

Where do you recommend I start looking?

[lindsayt]

ebay, hi-fi events, get together with other people that have similar systems / components to me (after any Covid restrictions have been lifted).

For ebay, check out ebay for other countries apart from your own.
Take punts on items that are cheap as chips or that you are confident you could sell on for a modest profit if it doesn't work out for you.
Being prepared to do DIY repairs or projects - especially with speakers - will help you get the biggest bargains.

[Spannko]

I was hoping for a bit more than “wet your finger, stick it in the air and see which way the wind is blowing”!!!

Do you have a specific recommendation for even just one product which you feel is a real giant killer?

[Matteo]

Where do you recommend I start looking?

Audioquest Dragonfly Black + AKG K92

€ 130 shipped for both

Best bang for back ever

M.

[lindsayt]

I was hoping for a bit more than “wet your finger, stick it in the air and see which way the wind is blowing”!!!

Do you have a specific recommendation for even just one product which you feel is a real giant killer?

Digital sources: TDA1549 equipped CD players. Topping E30 DACs with a linear power supply.

Speakers: something DIY'd from cherry picked classic American high efficiency drivers.

Or one of those once in a lifetime, right time, right place purchases of big heavy (over 70 kgs per channel)classic speakers from Altec, Bozak, EV, JBL, Urei. They may not be quite be good enough to get into the World Class category, but buy them for the right price, like under £500 and they will make every new speaker stocked by your local dealer seem massively overpriced for the performance on offer. The big downside of such speaker deals is that whilst they offer Linn M140 thrashing sound, they are big to huge and ugly or old fashioned looking.
In the 1950's to the 1980's, Altec, Bozak, EV, JBL, UREI were all competing with each other for the American high end speaker market. Where they were competing on the basis of ultimate sound quality. And when the volume of speakers sold was relatively high. They are a different breed of speaker to slimline, low efficiency speakers. The differences aren't subtle.

I don't include Klipsch in this bracket because if you compare, for example, the Klipschorn to the EV Patrician, they both used EV tweeters. The Patrician used EV's top of the range tweeters. The Klipschorn didn't.

[Spannko]

Do you mean the TDA1541A ?

[lindsayt]

Do you mean the TDA1541A ?

No.

No typos from me on this. TDA1549 is correct.
Give one a go. A CD player with a TDA1549. Cheap as chips and at least as tuneful as a Linn KDS.

[Spannko]

Do you mean the TDA1541A ?

No.

No typos from me on this. TDA1549 is correct.
Give one a go. A CD player with a TDA1549. Cheap as chips and at least as tuneful as a Linn KDS.

Any one? Surely some will be better than others, or are you saying that the worst sounding is still better than a KDS? And which KDS? There are several versions, or are you saying that the worst 1549 player is better than the best KDS?

[Charlie1]

Good question.

Well, the Marantz CD-5000 is certainly cheap enough on ebay - under £100.

Anyone fancy a punt?

[Defender]

Do you mean the TDA1541A ?

No.

No typos from me on this. TDA1549 is correct.
Give one a go. A CD player with a TDA1549. Cheap as chips and at least as tuneful as a Linn KDS.

Any one? Surely some will be better than others, or are you saying that the worst sounding is still better than a KDS? And which KDS? There are several versions, or are you saying that the worst 1549 player is better than the best KDS?

maybe for the 100 Euro Charlie quoted its worth a try but I have my doubts - there are clear statements in this forum that the DAC is not the most important part to ensure musical reproduction yet this discussion is going back to claim narrative.
I had a Marantz CD 10 and still have a Teac X-03SE and heard a Marantz CD-16. The both Marantz have the TDA 1547 (which is the predecessor of the 1549) and the Teac has a BB PCM1704 DAC ... all of them are R Ladder type DAC‘s yet all of those much better mechanical constructed devices than the mentioned CD players are not more musical than the Akurate DS Katalyst I have.

[Eli7]

Back to the original topic.

I couldn't make up my mind to buy a KDS3 and resell my M140 and MDSM for something cheaper to finance the source upgrade.

A KDS2 would be within reach. I could then keep my M140 and use MDSM as an amplifier temporarily.

Somehow I have the feeling that a Klimax DS2 has something (maybe magic) that an ADS3 doesn't. Or am I wrong?

My question again. Is the ADS3 really better than a KDS2?
If they are musically at eye level, what about the sound, are they different in terms of sound?

Or maybe I should get a new Majik LP12 ??? Got a couple of hundred records in the closet ... oh dear ...


I am asking these questions because I have had the ADSM3 here to test for some time now. I can hear the improvements at all levels. But when I ask myself the crucial questions like:

Do I want to listen to more music now (with ADSM)?
Do I enjoy the music more?
Do I want to stay up late in the evening because I am so fascinated by the music? Etc.

Then I have to say, no, I don't think so.

[Defender]

now we come to text ;)
I thought I should recommend to you right when you started the discussion that you might also think about the other option to go analog. But hesitated to write it.

Here is my story: I have an ADS3 and was always reluctant to go analog. I thought there must be a way to have the same level with high resolution digital.
I gave up last autumn and bought a used LP12 and that was the best move I could do. It is easily more musical than my ADS3 and I cant believe an Klimax DS whatever version can beat it. But I have to admit I never heard a Klimax DS.
I recommend to go the LP12 path but keep in mind that also includes you to buy a phono stage.
Now my arm is at Linn for service since 4 months and although I still have the ADS3 I only felt the need to switch on music 2-3times since than.

[Eli7]

now we come to text ;)
I thought I should recommend to you right when you started the discussion that you might also think about the other option to go analog. But hesitated to write it.

Here is my story: I have an ADS3 and was always reluctant to go analog. I thought there must be a way to have the same level with high resolution digital.
I gave up last autumn and bought a used LP12 and that was the best move I could do. It is easily more musical than my ADS3 and I cant believe an Klimax DS whatever version can beat it. But I have to admit I never heard a Klimax DS.
I recommend to go the LP12 path but keep in mind that also includes you to buy a phono stage.
Now my arm is at Linn for service since 4 months and although I still have the ADS3 I only felt the need to switch on music 2-3times since than.

Hello Defender, thank you very much for your honest answer. It's definitely not easy to admit to yourself that a critically acclaimed streamer like the ADS3 just won't do it for you.

I have tried the ADSM3 here a few times. Each time the music seems very promising at first. It's like a temptation if you readjust a little there or there (e.g. move the speakers a few mm or experiment a little on the rack, etc.) then, yes then ... But the promise is not kept. Listen to it longer, I notice how the ADSM leaves me cold.

Up until now it has been the case every time I have the ADSM here to visit. I have to admit to myself that I really want to love the ADSM / 3, but I don't. That is the truth. We don't get together.




Defender, it's a shame that you don't want to hear so much music with the ADS3. . This is really a very bad sign. But something like that does not show up immediately and you think it will be fine, the device is new and has to be played in or your own mood is currently not compatible with music, etc. until you realize, no, something definitely doesn't fit here.


Well, I hope the new Majik LP12 is for me. But I will definitely listen to it extensively beforehand. Somehow, after the experience with the ADSM3, I'm a little suspicious ...

[Defender]

no worries Eli7 I have the ADS for 2 years now which was replacing an Teac Esoteric X03. The Teac is Hifi/High End - detailed and fun but not musical. The ADS1 was better than the Teac with respect musicality but it sounded cold to me. Than I got it upgraded to the ADS3/Katalyst which was a good step with respect to musicality if you use the right SW version. If you dont know it better the ADS3 its something you can live with.

However the LP12 is just better and I cant believe the Klimax DS in whatever version can beat the LP12.
My LP12 is not a Majik its one with an Ekos 2, a Lingo 2 and a Linto and has a Keel clone from Greenstreet Audio.
So not top spec but maybe a level higher than Majik.
I have an Entity now which is not even fully run in as my Ekos needed service and Linn takes a while now for that.

However starting with the Majik LP12 all is open for further grow - as you like and as you can - that saves your investment.
With an ADS or a KlimaxDS the only chance to grow is if the next upgrade comes out.

And putting a vinyl on and hear the needle drop is like opening a bottle of good red wine (or whisky depending what you like) ... a way to forget all the election, covid ... around you.

You should be warned - you will get in trouble with your partner when the postman rings twice a week and its just another vinyl or two.

[markiteight]

Hi Eli7 and Defender,
I'm curious what you are using as a source to feed your ADS. Are you streaming internet radio or using a local NAS storing your personal collection? If the latter, what kind of device is it? The reason I ask is that it has been found by Linnofil with his development of the Super NAS, and more recently by those of us adapting HAKAI to NAS duty, that the source feeding data to the streamer is more important than the streamer itself. If the source feeding your ADS is compromised the ADS will never perform to its potential.

Unfortunately both the Super NAS and HAKAI based NAS use components that are long since discontinued and very difficult to find. At least with an LP12 you know that the music source (the record) is fixed, and therefore as good as it's going to get!

[u252agz]

Streaming is one way to avoid NAS drive issues.

Spotify, Tidal and Qobuz all quite good - try the with your ADSM and see if one floats your boat.

A good network switch is advisable and for some of us an analogue preamp is preferable to DVC.

[Defender]

@u252agz and markiteight, thank you for trying to help - I am aware of all stated.
I use a qnap nas with an Intel 320 drive Blue Jeans Eternetcables all the way and an Netgear 108T switch. Dont get me wrong if you dont have an LP 12 you are most likely be happy with an ADS/3.
I dont like DVC either thats why I have a Sagatun.
I made a decision at a certain point to no longer try to fix an issue which has to many variables with spending more money. I know streaming would be one way to go. However I rather buy vinyl for the money I would spent for a yearly subscription to a streaming service. Buts thats just my take.

[u252agz]

Optimizing a digital system will not make the ADSM3 sound more musical than a well set up LP12- but it might make it enjoyable to listen to and allow access to a huge library of digital music.

It is worth it for me as I listen to both vinyl and digital and enjoy the vast array of music I have at my disposal, in different parts of the house.

However I accept that if you are going to happy with just vinyl, then there is little point in grappling with the hassles and cost of digital systems.

[lindsayt]

Or maybe I should get a new Majik LP12 ??? Got a couple of hundred records in the closet ... oh dear ...

A brand new Majik LP12 offers terrible tunefulness for the money.

You can get more tuneful turntable, arm, cartridge combinations for less money by buying cherry picked used vinyl sources.

If you can buy a Majik or better specced LP12 for about £500, then it's worth the money.

Are you stuck with having to use tiny speakers, for domestic purposes?
If you can house big to huge speakers, please try a selection of big to huge speakers with your system with an open mind and see how you get on.

[lejonklou]

A brand new Majik LP12 offers terrible tunefulness for the money.

Apparently you have no clue what we mean by 'tunefulness' on this forum.

Why not attempt to learn what this forum is about?