CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by ThomasOK »

OK, I'll hit A vs B first as it is easier than the JH pair. I definitely prefer B. I find that it moves better, the vibrato on the vibes is not only easier to hear and decays longer but sounds like it goes with the notes better, the hits on the cymbals sound more natural to me and the one which really threw me, and had me running for the headphones this morning to make sure I wasn't hearing things, is that there is a little flourish on the drums on B that is totally missing on A! It sounds to me like a little shuffle on the snare with a brush that is really neat and appears right about .34 on B and only lasts a second or two. No matter how many times I listen to A nor how loud I play it I just can't hear it at all. Note that I am a drummer so am more likely to be sensitive to the drum and cymbal sound.

JH1 and JH2 are harder and I find myself preferring JH2 overall. But it is hard to say how much of that is because the sax on JH1 sounds like it is at or near to clipping the mic/electronics in the phone much of the time.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by ThomasOK »

OK, on the A vs B I'm going for B. I find them a bit closer than 1 and 2 but the sax sounds a bit more natural to me on B and I feel the piece flows better overall. I tried to start mostly in the middle to avoid the nasty distortion at the beginning.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by Spannko »

Fudge is the better of the two. PlayStation is a difficult listen due to it tripping itself up all the time. Fudge is rhythmically more consistent.

Based on the other videos of Karousel v Cikus I’ve heard, I’d say Fudge is the Cirkus and PlayStation is the Karousel. It would be great news if it was the other way round though!
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by David Neel »

I'm going to go rogue. I've found clips useful in the past, despite being a cynic as to how much of the in-room experience they convey. I've come round to using them myself to help me judge small increments. Some I've posted.
But here we are dealing with clips for which I can hear differences but not actually have a strong preference. And yet I know that (in-room) there is a massive gulf between Cirkus and Karousel. Regardless of which is preferred, these clips fail to convey the differences that I have heard in the room.
So either we are dealing with variations in the recording, or the limitations of low-fidelity clips. Whether the one I marginally prefer is the Cirkus, or the Karousel, this exercise has convinced me not to trust clips!
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by Discodave »

Daphne for me, more musical and yes I noticed the flourish too. And I am not a drummer.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by Spannko »

David Neel wrote: 2020-08-20 21:14 I'm going to go rogue. I've found clips useful in the past, despite being a cynic as to how much of the in-room experience they convey. I've come round to using them myself to help me judge small increments. Some I've posted.
But here we are dealing with clips for which I can hear differences but not actually have a strong preference. And yet I know that (in-room) there is a massive gulf between Cirkus and Karousel. Regardless of which is preferred, these clips fail to convey the differences that I have heard in the room.
So either we are dealing with variations in the recording, or the limitations of low-fidelity clips. Whether the one I marginally prefer is the Cirkus, or the Karousel, this exercise has convinced me not to trust clips!
I’ve been having a think whilst on the throne, as one does, and have just picked up my iPad to post my contemplations only to discover that you’ve beaten me to it and stolen my thunder!

For whatever reason, there’s something which doesn’t quite ring true with these videos. In all past comparisons, the difference in sound has been massive, with a relatively smaller difference in musicality. However, with these videos, the difference in sound is relatively small to non-existent , and the difference in musicality is very noticeable. Something’s not right.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results are out)

Post by Lego »

Karousel is:

B ..Fudge ....J1 and 1
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by Tony Tune-age »

David Neel wrote: 2020-08-20 21:14Whether the one I marginally prefer is the Cirkus, or the Karousel, this exercise has convinced me not to trust clips!
Same here, and I would never purchase any audio component based on audio clips only. Nor could I ever determine exactly how good a component was (or wasn't) based entirely on audio clips.

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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Not being an LP12 owner I have no skin in this choice. But for me the Cirkus is more musical than the Karousel.

The clips are as good as can be expected. HiFi dealer demo room. Identical set up aside from the bearings. If ThomasOK can pick up a drum flourish on one of two clips the microphone can't be too bad. Said flourish is on the Japanese digital master. I have yet to test the HiRes version.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2020-08-20 22:15
David Neel wrote: 2020-08-20 21:14 I'm going to go rogue. I've found clips useful in the past, despite being a cynic as to how much of the in-room experience they convey. I've come round to using them myself to help me judge small increments. Some I've posted.
But here we are dealing with clips for which I can hear differences but not actually have a strong preference. And yet I know that (in-room) there is a massive gulf between Cirkus and Karousel. Regardless of which is preferred, these clips fail to convey the differences that I have heard in the room.
So either we are dealing with variations in the recording, or the limitations of low-fidelity clips. Whether the one I marginally prefer is the Cirkus, or the Karousel, this exercise has convinced me not to trust clips!
I’ve been having a think whilst on the throne, as one does, and have just picked up my iPad to post my contemplations only to discover that you’ve beaten me to it and stolen my thunder!

For whatever reason, there’s something which doesn’t quite ring true with these videos. In all past comparisons, the difference in sound has been massive, with a relatively smaller difference in musicality. However, with these videos, the difference in sound is relatively small to non-existent , and the difference in musicality is very noticeable. Something’s not right.
On first listening Spannko I was very surprised by how similar the sound was, although it was easy to hear the difference in musicality.He didn't tell me which was which until the end and I was hoping ,that what turned out to be the Karousel, was the Cirkus as that's what I have. :0)
Not what I was expecting.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (Results day is 20/08/2020 22:30 GMT)

Post by Lego »

David Neel wrote: 2020-08-20 21:14 I'm going to go rogue. I've found clips useful in the past, despite being a cynic as to how much of the in-room experience they convey. I've come round to using them myself to help me judge small increments. Some I've posted.
But here we are dealing with clips for which I can hear differences but not actually have a strong preference. And yet I know that (in-room) there is a massive gulf between Cirkus and Karousel. Regardless of which is preferred, these clips fail to convey the differences that I have heard in the room.
So either we are dealing with variations in the recording, or the limitations of low-fidelity clips. Whether the one I marginally prefer is the Cirkus, or the Karousel, this exercise has convinced me not to trust clips!
Actually David ,these clips reinforced what I heard in the store and in this particular setup it's was the musicality that was the main difference for me .
The clips reflected that .At the end of the demo, Ian the dealer said it seems to be musically better than Cirkus.There was no gushy sales speak .It was the improved performance of the musicians I was more aware of.
If I don't want to spend money I listen to my hifi.If in the future I want to spend money I'll simply listen to the clips otherwise I'll forget what the Karousel does.
I need something to show my bank manager. :0)
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by beck »

My personal take from listening:

With these clips I could not distinguish convincingly between Karousel and Cirkus (50/50 hit rate).

Do I think there is a difference between the two? Yes

That difference I have to find elsewhere.

Do I think clips are without value? No


Once again the discussion, attention and thinking clips makes us dive into is the winner.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-08-21 07:41 My personal take from listening:

With these clips I could not distinguish convincingly between Karousel and Cirkus (50/50 hit rate).

Do I think there is a difference between the two? Yes

That difference I have to find elsewhere.

Do I think clips are without value? No


Once again the discussion, attention and thinking clips makes us dive into is the winner.
The beauty of blind listening :0)
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by Spannko »

What were the turntable setups? Amps? Speakers?
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by Lego »

No idea Spannko,didnt look
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by Spannko »

You went for a dem and didn’t take notice of what you were listening to? Hmm. It would have been helpful if you did!

Since that’s the worst performance I’ve heard from a Cirkus, I’d say there was something wrong with the setup. I’ve never heard an lp12 mess the music up so badly, even badly set up lp12’s don’t sound that bad.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2020-08-21 14:35 You went for a dem and didn’t take notice of what you were listening to? Hmm. It would have been helpful if you did!

Since that’s the worst performance I’ve heard from a Cirkus, I’d say there was something wrong with the setup. I’ve never heard an lp12 mess the music up so badly, even badly set up lp12’s don’t sound that bad.
I'm not really into hifi that much Spannko,I was going along to compare cirkus and Karousel.I was too busy looking at the albums,you know that stuff called music?
What were you comparing this Cirkus to,something in your long term memory ?
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Spannko wrote: 2020-08-21 14:35 Since that’s the worst performance I’ve heard from a Cirkus, I’d say there was something wrong with the setup. I’ve never heard an lp12 mess the music up so badly, even badly set up lp12’s don’t sound that bad.
If the Cirkus LP12 was so bad why did it get many votes and positive comments? I don't hear the "mess".
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by Spannko »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-21 14:59
Spannko wrote: 2020-08-21 14:35 You went for a dem and didn’t take notice of what you were listening to? Hmm. It would have been helpful if you did!

Since that’s the worst performance I’ve heard from a Cirkus, I’d say there was something wrong with the setup. I’ve never heard an lp12 mess the music up so badly, even badly set up lp12’s don’t sound that bad.
I'm not really into hifi that much Spannko,I was going along to compare cirkus and Karousel.I was too busy looking at the albums,you know that stuff called music?
What were you comparing this Cirkus to,something in your long term memory ?
Play nicely Lego, please.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Spannko wrote: 2020-08-21 14:35 You went for a dem and didn’t take notice of what you were listening to? Hmm. It would have been helpful if you did!

Since that’s the worst performance I’ve heard from a Cirkus, I’d say there was something wrong with the setup. I’ve never heard an lp12 mess the music up so badly, even badly set up lp12’s don’t sound that bad.

If I'm doing a like for like comparison demo of a source at a dealership I rarely take note of the loudspeakers and amps too (unless they sound bad).

Here's the system I believe: loudspeakers, KEF Reference 5, amplifier, Moon 700i, Audio Origami PU7 with Dynavector 20x2.

LP12s set up by someone with expertise.
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by Spannko »

Did you both attend the demo?
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Re: CIRKUS Vs KAROUSEL TAKE 2 (See Results)

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Spannko wrote: 2020-08-21 19:02 Did you both attend the demo?
Good grief no. We take Covid-19 seriously here Spannko. I've seen my teenager once since March. Two city trips since the end of shielding.

Fredrik mentioned somewhere about the relationship between music and his soul. It's been very similar for me through this pandemic. Music is a lifetime passion but to live through x months of shielding alone in a new house without music would have been a nightmare. At times in life music for me is profoundly important.
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