Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

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Lego
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Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by Lego »

[New topic, split from the topic 'Karousel']

One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 12:01 One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
My experience is exactly the opposite. The better the system is, the more I want to use it, both for new and old music.

The Radikal in particular made me play some old favourite albums on repeat.

I just listened to Charlie's clips, will put my impressions into words later.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-12 15:04
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 12:01 One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
My experience is exactly the opposite. The better the system is, the more I want to use it, both for new and old music.

The Radikal in particular made me play some old favourite albums on repeat.

I just listened to Charlie's clips, will put my impressions into words later.
That's very interesting as when I went from Rega 3 to LP12 my record collection started to grow exponentially,I had to listen to new music .I must admit I do know a few people that can go to the same live gig 3 nights in a row and still enjoy it.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 12:01 One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
Sorry, I can’t relate to anything you’re saying here at all. Like Fredrik, my experience is completely the opposite. I’d even say that if a system doesn’t allow me to enjoy my favourite albums, no matter how many hundreds of times I’ve heard them, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

I have to say Leo that I feel the same way as Lejonklou and Spannko.

I can relate to a growing collection of music but the old albums are still on repeat too.
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Re: Karousel

Post by FairPlayMotty »

My view on my favourite albums of all time is simple. If I still derived as much pleasure from listening to them now as I did decades ago I'd probably consult a neurologist. For all of those favourite albums I have almost as many versions as exist, purely to try to get the level of enjoyment from them as I did when I first played them on repeat. I have endless versions of Blonde on Blonde and many others for that reason.

For me those albums have a diminishing return after decades. Sure they're reference recordings for me that I listen to with every upgrade. But I am more inclined to listen to individual tracks than the whole album.

If I could erase my memory of my favourite albums and enjoy the peaks they gave me I would do so in a heartbeat.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

I recall agreeing with Lego after the Radikal upgrade that perhaps I had got all I could get out of familiar records after hearing them once via the Radikal deck, but in hindsight I now just wonder if the Radikal was for me, or perhaps something was lost at the same time.

Certainly, my most enjoyable upgrades were straight forward steps forward in musicality with no obvious downsides and I enjoyed new and old music more - Arkiv to Akiva and Ekos 2 to SE come to mind.
Last edited by Charlie1 on 2020-08-12 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Karousel

Post by champton90 »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 12:01 One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
If a system is *better* at communicating the music, why would that make anyone want to listen to it *less*?? That is counter-intuitive and makes no sense. It sounds like an argument to go get the most awful sounding system you can find because it will make you want to listen to it more.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-08-12 18:33 I have to say Leo that I feel the same way as Lejonklou and Spannko.

I can relate to a growing collection of music but the old albums are still on repeat too.
If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
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Re: Karousel

Post by DelNaja »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 21:39 If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
I'll answer with a question. If you get the chance to eat a fantastic three course dinner, would you not want to eat that ever again? By your logic, why would you? You know how it tastes, right?

To me, music is like eating food. I want to do it over and over again. It never gets dull.
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Re: Karousel

Post by lejonklou »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 21:39 If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
Because the message is in a language that speaks directly to our emotions. And we want to experience that emotion again.
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Re: Karousel

Post by u252agz »

DelNaja wrote: 2020-08-12 21:50
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 21:39 If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
I'll answer with a question. If you get the chance to eat a fantastic three course dinner, would you not want to eat that ever again? By your logic, why would you? You know how it tastes, right?

To me, music is like eating food. I want to do it over and over again. It never gets dull.
Yes, and with each musical upgrade the same food keeps on tasting better- and we all have a selection of different and quite wonderful meals available at our fingertips.
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 21:39
beck wrote: I have to say Leo that I feel the same way as Lejonklou and Spannko.

I can relate to a growing collection of music but the old albums are still on repeat too.
If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
When I experience something truely joyful in my life I would like to experience it again and again.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-08-12 22:39
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 21:39
beck wrote: I have to say Leo that I feel the same way as Lejonklou and Spannko.

I can relate to a growing collection of music but the old albums are still on repeat too.
If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
When I experience something truely joyful in my life I would like to experience it again and again.
sounds like addiction to me Beck :0)
I prefer new musical experiences ,which is why I struggle to go back to the same albums again and again ,I would much rather buy a new one.I suppose the only way to appreciate an upgrade is to listen to an album previously played on older kit,which I guess is a different thing altogether..

The albums I appreciate and enjoy the most are the ones I rarely play,because I get them.
I'm struggling to explain, sorry .

Why do we listen to the same albums again and again?...My theory is the hifi isn't cutting it.

I suppose it's down to the individual.
I prefer going to see a live artist when they play new material ,but some people moan when they don't play their hits . Those same people tend to not like going to parties when they don't know anyone.
I digress with dangerous generalisation :0)
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

I think I'm different to you Lego which is perhaps why I struggle with a lot of improvisational jazz. Even if I buy a new album from a favourite artist, it will take several listens to really get much enjoyment from it. But slowly the tracks become more familiar and I start to get into it. Then comes a peak of enjoyment where I'm loving a particular track - usually the more poppy one/s. Other tracks on the album will peak at different times. Generally, the tracks that peak earlier will be the ones I get bored of sooner and the ones that peak latter will have the longest shelf life. Eventually, I'll get bored of the whole album and stop listening. Whilst not listening, the album is slowly on re-charge. After a few months or few years, I can play the album again with renewed enjoyment, but this will quickly fade after 2-3 listens. Upgrding my system, recharges my entire collection to some degree and I get renewed enjoyment out of every album (for a short while).

Very different to how you enjoy your music Lego - It must have cost you a fortune in new vinyl or CDs before streaming came along. I remember chatting a couple of times to a guy on the old Linn forum who bought tons of new vinyl each week. I think he used to work in the music industry and I assumed he literally spent all day and night listening to his new LPs. However, it become apparant that he'd listen to many albums just the once which seemed totally alien to me. How could he get any enjoyment that way? But clearly he is not alone :)
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Re: Karousel

Post by beck »

Another reason to love this forum Leo. While I am a lot like Charlie1 I really find it fascinating to meet people who are totally different from me. 👍
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Re: Karousel

Post by donuk »

I guess this thread is turning into a musical Carousel rather than a Karousel, so apologies to continue.
(Hint, hint, it would be great if this forum had a Music Category so that we could discuss these more ponderous aspects of our hobby too.)

I too find this debate fascinating, not least to find out how different some people are to myself - and none of us is "wrong".

There are a probably about 20 CDs, which I probably had originally on LP, which I regularly return to. I do this now, not because of their intrinsic undoubted musical qualities, nor that some of them are well recorded, but because of emotional association.

Many of these mark chapters in my life and at times of stress it is nice to withdraw there. A bit like looking at old photographs. Others contain pieces of music which help me relax and go to a safe place. It is sometimes desirable to return to somewhere well known, just like holidaying. You know what you are going to get and not be disappointed.

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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

Interesting you say that Don. I have several albums that do the same for me, mostly albums my Mum played during my childhood but a couple from adolescence as well. They are just comforting.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-12 21:50
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 21:39 If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
Because the message is in a language that speaks directly to our emotions. And we want to experience that emotion again.
Do you feel that way about gigs Frederik, could you go back to the same gig every night fo 5 nights and recreate that same emotion that you experienced on the first night?
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-13 08:44 I think I'm different to you Lego which is perhaps why I struggle with a lot of improvisational jazz. Even if I buy a new album from a favourite artist, it will take several listens to really get much enjoyment from it. But slowly the tracks become more familiar and I start to get into it. Then comes a peak of enjoyment where I'm loving a particular track - usually the more poppy one/s. Other tracks on the album will peak at different times. Generally, the tracks that peak earlier will be the ones I get bored of sooner and the ones that peak latter will have the longest shelf life. Eventually, I'll get bored of the whole album and stop listening. Whilst not listening, the album is slowly on re-charge. After a few months or few years, I can play the album again with renewed enjoyment, but this will quickly fade after 2-3 listens. Upgrding my system, recharges my entire collection to some degree and I get renewed enjoyment out of every album (for a short while).

Very different to how you enjoy your music Lego - It must have cost you a fortune in new vinyl or CDs before streaming came along. I remember chatting a couple of times to a guy on the old Linn forum who bought tons of new vinyl each week. I think he used to work in the music industry and I assumed he literally spent all day and night listening to his new LPs. However, it become apparant that he'd listen to many albums just the once which seemed totally alien to me. How could he get any enjoyment that way? But clearly he is not alone :)
I hear you Charlie1, I think what you describe is what most people go through, myself included. However my theory is that the better the replay is, the quicker we can enjoy that album and so less listening is required to arrive at the peak enjoyment of all the tracks on the album.

Let's suppose one of your favourite solo artists has just recorded 2 albums and decides to go to your place and perform an unplugged version of one of the albums for you. Of course, you enjoy the gig and he offers to come back the following evening to perform for you again. He offers you a choice of the same album or the second album. Which do you choose?


Another example is Frank Zappa. I love FZ's lyrics(don't usually listen to lyrics) and his guitar playing but his lyrics play such a large part of my enjoyment that I only need to hear him once. It's not the same the second time.

I only bought a couple of albums every week for about 20 odd years. When I was young you weren't allowed to walk about the town without carrying an LP :0)
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-08-13 09:25 Another reason to love this forum Leo. While I am a lot like Charlie1 I really find it fascinating to meet people who are totally different from me. 👍
You got that right Beck :0)
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by beck »

Leo, why do people yell for an “encore” at concerts (live opera in Italy to name an example)?

Is it because they did not get it the first time? Do you not think they have heard that aria many times before?

They want to revisit the joy of the moment.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

DelNaja wrote: 2020-08-12 21:50
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 21:39 If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
I'll answer with a question. If you get the chance to eat a fantastic three course dinner, would you not want to eat that ever again? By your logic, why would you? You know how it tastes, right?

To me, music is like eating food. I want to do it over and over again. It never gets dull.
Somehow I think there are more album titles out there than 3 course meals,time is too short to listen to an album more than once ,now I'm taking it to the extreme :0)
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Re: Karousel

Post by champton90 »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 21:39
beck wrote: 2020-08-12 18:33 I have to say Leo that I feel the same way as Lejonklou and Spannko.

I can relate to a growing collection of music but the old albums are still on repeat too.
If a system or a musician has managed to convey what they're trying to say with music ,why would you want to listen again unless you didn't understand the message
You must not get any joy out of listening to music if you think there is no justification for listening to the same piece of music more than once...ever! That's exactly what you are implying, and it makes literally zero sense. It's like you're advocating for never owning a vinyl/CD/SACD/cassette/open real/8-track/digital file/etc collection, but instead just do nothing but stream music where you never listen to the same piece of music more than once. What a miserable existence that would be.
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by sunbeamgls »

My experience is one that aligns with some of the above, but none of them entirely.

I've found that improvement in the musical enjoyment of my system does a couple of things.

First, it makes me want to listen to my favourite music more than ever. I want to put on an old or repeatedly played piece time and time again. It also helps me to explore the albums containing those pieces more deeply. I usually find that tracks that I previously dismissed on those albums seem to have improved as I appreciate and understand them better.

The second thing it does is give me more insight into new music and genres of music that have not appealed in the past. So as the system has got better, so I feel emboldened to go and explore more different and new music, both newly released and old releases but new to me.

As a result of the second effect, the proportion of old favourites I listen to reduces. But it is not because I no longer enjoy those old favourites, it is because I'm excited and motivated to go out and try to find new favourites.

As an aside, I think the choice of what I play (I get to focus on music for 2 or 3 hours on 4 or 5 nights a week) is subciously driven by my mood / experience of the day. Sometimes l just want to absorb favourites as going on the hunt for new music is too much effort that day and the proportion of new music failures feels like a waste of good listening time. Other days the failed finds and small number of good finds seem entirely worthwhile.
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