Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-08-13 14:15 Leo, why do people yell for an “encore” at concerts (live opera in Italy to name an example)?

Is it because they did not get it the first time? Do you not think they have heard that aria many times before?

They want to revisit the joy of the moment.
They want to hear more music ,not a repeat of whatever has been performed
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by beck »

Well, we can agree on one thing: according to your theory your system is better than mine.

I like to hear my old favorites again and again. :-)
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by donuk »

I think Sunbeamgls has better developed what I was trying to say earlier.

Having a better system certainly makes some artists, even different genres of music more enjoyable.

And how many times have we read on forums over the years "now I have bought a Tundra, it has made me want to listen to my records all over again to discover new subtleties." I have been there too......

There are just a few recordings which have become less enjoyable as my system has improved: I refer to much of the classic 60s pops which were recorded poorly, and/or modified so that they sounded most appealing on a transistor 6 or a Dansette record player. Early Beatles, much classic rock and roll and Mamas and Papas never touch my heart as much as they did when I first heard them listening to 100Hz to 3kHz!

They don't make nostalgia like they used to, either...

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Re: Karousel

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-13 08:44 I think I'm different to you Lego which is perhaps why I struggle with a lot of improvisational jazz. Even if I buy a new album from a favourite artist, it will take several listens to really get much enjoyment from it. But slowly the tracks become more familiar and I start to get into it. Then comes a peak of enjoyment where I'm loving a particular track - usually the more poppy one/s. Other tracks on the album will peak at different times. Generally, the tracks that peak earlier will be the ones I get bored of sooner and the ones that peak latter will have the longest shelf life. Eventually, I'll get bored of the whole album and stop listening. Whilst not listening, the album is slowly on re-charge. After a few months or few years, I can play the album again with renewed enjoyment, but this will quickly fade after 2-3 listens. Upgrding my system, recharges my entire collection to some degree and I get renewed enjoyment out of every album (for a short while).
Charlie1 - this is very similar to my experience except I have no problem with improvisational jazz and for me the "renewed enjoyment" is rarely even one additional listen of an album. It tends to be individual songs.

I do rejoice in things like the mono releases of albums (often with significantly different track timings) or alternative versions like The Velvet Underground Valentin vs Closet mix because they allow me to extend the renewed love of the album.

First outing since March this morning and my first stop was a record store :-)
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2020-08-12 18:05
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 12:01 One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
Sorry, I can’t relate to anything you’re saying here at all. Like Fredrik, my experience is completely the opposite. I’d even say that if a system doesn’t allow me to enjoy my favourite albums, no matter how many hundreds of times I’ve heard them, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system.
You just don't get it Spannko,I'm not saying I can't enjoy the album again and again,I am saying the first performance as a system gets better is usually the best.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

champton90 wrote: 2020-08-12 19:42
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 12:01 One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
If a system is *better* at communicating the music, why would that make anyone want to listen to it *less*?? That is counter-intuitive and makes no sense. It sounds like an argument to go get the most awful sounding system you can find because it will make you want to listen to it more.
If a system is really good at communicating you'll want to communicate with as many albums as you can rather than go back to the same old albums ,the better it is at communicating the more albums you buy and so less opportunity to listen to past albums .If you could all of a sudden understand a new language ,would you keep going back to listen to the same old guy in the pub.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Spannko »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-13 23:05
Spannko wrote: 2020-08-12 18:05
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 12:01 One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
Sorry, I can’t relate to anything you’re saying here at all. Like Fredrik, my experience is completely the opposite. I’d even say that if a system doesn’t allow me to enjoy my favourite albums, no matter how many hundreds of times I’ve heard them, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system.
You just don't get it Spannko,I'm not saying I can't enjoy the album again and again,I am saying the first performance as a system gets better is usually the best.
I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by lejonklou »

I think we're entering into a personal territory here, one that regards how we listen to music. Some seem to just look for new experiences, while others (myself included) can listen to an old favourite again and again (when I'm in the mood for it). I can't find anything wrong with any of these stances, they just seem personal to me.

It seems we all agree that an upgrade of the system can make us appreciate an old favourite again. Some say that experiencing it once is enough, others (myself included) can take that rollercoaster ride several times and still get a thrill.

My intention is not to put a lid on the discussion, but can we get any further? I'm still on holiday and plan to barbecue tomorrow evening, probably it will be something similar to last time, but I'll probably enjoy it a lot. This morning I played Alison Krauss for perhaps the 20th time this year while I drank my morning tea for the 200th time (I missed a few when I was in Sápmi). And I'll do something new as well, I promise.
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Re: Karousel

Post by Charlie1 »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-08-13 21:08and for me the "renewed enjoyment" is rarely even one additional listen of an album. It tends to be individual songs.
Yes, me too now I come to think of it.
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-13 23:56 This morning I played Alison Krauss for perhaps the 20th time this year
OK, if we're talking Alison krauss then I'm with Leo, once is enough 😁
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-14 00:02
lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-13 23:56 This morning I played Alison Krauss for perhaps the 20th time this year
OK, if we're talking Alison krauss then I'm with Leo, once is enough 😁
I think my wife will agree with you, but for me she's got something special. Especially with the Union Station backing her.
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by Charlie1 »

I don't really mind her. It was just too good an opportunity to poke fun 😉. I know she's highly rated but I do find her voice a bit cold for some reason.
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by Spannko »

Although it’s a dreadful recording, I really enjoy the album she did with Robert Plant.
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Re: Karousel

Post by sunbeamgls »

Lego wrote: 2020-08-13 23:05
Spannko wrote: 2020-08-12 18:05
Lego wrote: 2020-08-12 12:01 One thing that is very seldom referred to here is the communication of the replay system.

I have a hunch that the better the system is at communicating the music the less you'll want to listen to that particular album. Could this be construed as boring-sounding?

I mean, who wants to listen to the same joke more than once, probably only those who don't get it.

When I started to listen to digital albums(not available on LP) for the first time on the Hakai,I found I was enjoying the albums more with the initial listen and the same musical 'buzz' wasn't there the more I played it, the sound 'buzz' remained obviously

I also had similar musings to Charlie1 when I upgraded to the Cirkus, the old lp12 bloom had gone and it sounded a bit matter of fact. When I played a new album I enjoyed it and didn't think the album needed more bloom or that it was a boring album.

Whether the Karousel is doing this I obviously can't say until I hear it,I have a sneaky(oops) suspicion the Radikal also has similar effect.

I suppose the only solution is to get more new music. Is that not the way it's supposed to be?
Sorry, I can’t relate to anything you’re saying here at all. Like Fredrik, my experience is completely the opposite. I’d even say that if a system doesn’t allow me to enjoy my favourite albums, no matter how many hundreds of times I’ve heard them, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system.
You just don't get it Spannko,I'm not saying I can't enjoy the album again and again,I am saying the first performance as a system gets better is usually the best.
Are you saying you can appreciate that old tune again only when its reproduction is improved? If that is the case I would suggest your personal appreciation of music is only when there is difference, change and the new. There's nothing wrong with that if course but it seems to be a personal desire rather than anything to do with systems.
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by FairPlayMotty »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-14 00:24
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-14 00:02
lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-13 23:56 This morning I played Alison Krauss for perhaps the 20th time this year
OK, if we're talking Alison krauss then I'm with Leo, once is enough 😁
I think my wife will agree with you, but for me she's got something special. Especially with the Union Station backing her.
I always liked her, Lucinda Williams and others. Krauss is rated as a consumate professional by other singers.

A Scottish TV detective series had (weirdly) almost exclusively Americana songs. Many artists I had never heard of. The music was universally outstanding. No idea who picked the tracks but it opened up whole new musical avenues for me. Eliza Gilkyson, Mary Gauthier etc. The playlist for the series is in music forums in the U.S., Russia etc.
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by FairPlayMotty »

https://olderthanelvis.blogspot.com/201 ... k.html?m=1

PBS in the U.S. did an iTunes playlist. Others created Spotify playlists for all three series. Case Histories was the programme name.
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by David Neel »

Spannko wrote: 2020-08-14 00:50 Although it’s a dreadful recording, I really enjoy the album she did with Robert Plant.
I thought that about the recording at first. Now it's one of the first I play when something in the system has been changed, as more layers get revealed. Now that I have a Karousel... :))
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Re: Karousel

Post by Lego »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2020-08-14 10:57
Lego wrote: 2020-08-13 23:05
Spannko wrote: 2020-08-12 18:05

Sorry, I can’t relate to anything you’re saying here at all. Like Fredrik, my experience is completely the opposite. I’d even say that if a system doesn’t allow me to enjoy my favourite albums, no matter how many hundreds of times I’ve heard them, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system.
You just don't get it Spannko,I'm not saying I can't enjoy the album again and again,I am saying the first performance as a system gets better is usually the best.
Are you saying you can appreciate that old tune again only when its reproduction is improved? If that is the case I would suggest your personal appreciation of music is only when there is difference, change and the new. There's nothing wrong with that if course but it seems to be a personal desire rather than anything to do with systems.
No ,I'm saying the more you get out of a performance there is less of a need to go back to it as often ,which is probably the reason we rarely play our very favourite album ,because we know we love it
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Re: Karousel

Post by V.A.MKD »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-08-13 08:44 I think I'm different to you Lego which is perhaps why I struggle with a lot of improvisational jazz. Even if I buy a new album from a favourite artist, it will take several listens to really get much enjoyment from it. But slowly the tracks become more familiar and I start to get into it. Then comes a peak of enjoyment where I'm loving a particular track - usually the more poppy one/s. Other tracks on the album will peak at different times. Generally, the tracks that peak earlier will be the ones I get bored of sooner and the ones that peak latter will have the longest shelf life. Eventually, I'll get bored of the whole album and stop listening. Whilst not listening, the album is slowly on re-charge. After a few months or few years, I can play the album again with renewed enjoyment, but this will quickly fade after 2-3 listens. Upgrding my system, recharges my entire collection to some degree and I get renewed enjoyment out of every album (for a short while).

Very different to how you enjoy your music Lego - It must have cost you a fortune in new vinyl or CDs before streaming came along. I remember chatting a couple of times to a guy on the old Linn forum who bought tons of new vinyl each week. I think he used to work in the music industry and I assumed he literally spent all day and night listening to his new LPs. However, it become apparant that he'd listen to many albums just the once which seemed totally alien to me. How could he get any enjoyment that way? But clearly he is not alone :)
+1 here Charlie1. My experience is almost the same.
30 years ago I by vinyl from Keith Jarrett, "Changeless", ECM Production No. 1392. I listen it sometimes every day, sometimes several times a week and with that tempo, it was approximately 5 months time until something happen ... "klik" ... until today I never stop listening that vinyl ... again and again ... with "peak of enjoyment" as you say ... until today by 3 vinyls and 1 CD ... This is with Jazz and with Classical music is also ...
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by ThomasOK »

Interesting topic. So much has gone by that it is hard to pick out things to comment on. I think my first thought is that music is an emotional language and I listen for the emotional connection I feel with the message. This is why so many "audiophile" records that might be technically good but lacking in emotion leave me cold. There has been a time or two when I thought I had heard such a wonderful reproduction of an album that I didn't need to listen to it again, but that feeling never stuck with me. Also the food analogy could be used to argue both points of view. I love discovering new restaurants or cuisines and when they are really good I certainly want to go back frequently. But over time the newness wears off and it is often the case that I visit less frequently, especially if they only have a few really good dishes. Then again I drink the same couple dozen or so teas over and over again and do find them delicious each time, but I also pick from those dozens based on what I feel like that day.

But I do often go back and listen to favorite albums and there are three reasons I see for doing this:
1) Because I want to connect again with how that particular album made me feel. This doesn't have to be a joyful thing either as there are times I go back and listen to NIN "Pretty Hate Machine" which is anything but joyful (sometimes you just need to purge).
2) Because we (at least most of us) grow and change over time. This means that our perspective on a piece of music would also change as we are now viewing it from a different perspective and getting new insights into the piece.
3) Because the system has improved and we want to hear how much more is in the music we thought we were familiar with. In this way we can also experience a known piece of music as new.

I found this last to definitely be the case when a major new upgrade has been put in my system (Sagatun Monos, Quads, SINGularity, Karousel) but also from even what some would consider minor upgrades (repositioning the speakers and finding music even better, replacing the power cables with the new Lejonklou ones, finding a new or better torque). I have had several experiences of a piece of music I have played lots (In the Court of the Crimson King, Kind of Blue, In the Wee Small Hours, etc.) where listening after a significant upgrade has literally raised goosebumps on my arms. I don't think a tired, worn piece of music would have this effect. This is something that is also likely more applicable to me than to most as I am constantly playing around with things, partly because I'm in the industry and have access to lots to play with (although little of it is impressive enough to come home for a visit) and partly because I'm almost as obsessive/compulsive as Fredrik (although I don't spend near as much time playing with cable placement as some here).
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by V.A.MKD »

Interesting post Thomas, in total, with all the issues / aspects that you mention. I will separate 3) as that is somehow connection me & this forum ... as my back to basic ... system - musicality - music ...

When I start here there was a lot of reading ... learning ... practicing TM ... rethinking ... and make decision to start as I use to say ... from the wall ...

Change wall socket, than Power Strips, than Power Cords (and stop here because of this global Covid-19 issue). All changes was done with strictly following forum suggestion ... My system start to sing, start to tell me stories that Musicians and Composers have made ... That was start (and still in progress) of rediscovering Miles, Keith, Nina, Eva Cassidy, Casandra Wilson, Rachmaninoff, Grieg, Tchaikovsky, Telemann and many others ...
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by Lego »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-08-19 17:52 Interesting topic. So much has gone by that it is hard to pick out things to comment on. I think my first thought is that music is an emotional language and I listen for the emotional connection I feel with the message. This is why so many "audiophile" records that might be technically good but lacking in emotion leave me cold. There has been a time or two when I thought I had heard such a wonderful reproduction of an album that I didn't need to listen to it again, but that feeling never stuck with me. Also the food analogy could be used to argue both points of view. I love discovering new restaurants or cuisines and when they are really good I certainly want to go back frequently. But over time the newness wears off and it is often the case that I visit less frequently, especially if they only have a few really good dishes. Then again I drink the same couple dozen or so teas over and over again and do find them delicious each time, but I also pick from those dozens based on what I feel like that day.

But I do often go back and listen to favorite albums and there are three reasons I see for doing this:
1) Because I want to connect again with how that particular album made me feel. This doesn't have to be a joyful thing either as there are times I go back and listen to NIN "Pretty Hate Machine" which is anything but joyful (sometimes you just need to purge).
2) Because we (at least most of us) grow and change over time. This means that our perspective on a piece of music would also change as we are now viewing it from a different perspective and getting new insights into the piece.
3) Because the system has improved and we want to hear how much more is in the music we thought we were familiar with. In this way we can also experience a known piece of music as new.

I found this last to definitely be the case when a major new upgrade has been put in my system (Sagatun Monos, Quads, SINGularity, Karousel) but also from even what some would consider minor upgrades (repositioning the speakers and finding music even better, replacing the power cables with the new Lejonklou ones, finding a new or better torque). I have had several experiences of a piece of music I have played lots (In the Court of the Crimson King, Kind of Blue, In the Wee Small Hours, etc.) where listening after a significant upgrade has literally raised goosebumps on my arms. I don't think a tired, worn piece of music would have this effect. This is something that is also likely more applicable to me than to most as I am constantly playing around with things, partly because I'm in the industry and have access to lots to play with (although little of it is impressive enough to come home for a visit) and partly because I'm almost as obsessive/compulsive as Fredrik (although I don't spend near as much time playing with cable placement as some here).
Thanks for that insight Thomas and welcome home,it's good to have you back and hope you had a fulfilling trip.

It's been quiet without you :0)

Maybe you can answer a few questions nobody here is willing to answer.

1)Have you ever had a desire to go to a concert countless times over a short period of time in the same way you might listen to an album,both can be equally enjoyable ,cost aside ?

2)When you read a book that you enjoy and it brought out different emotions,why are you not happy to recreate those feelings again by reading it again in a few weeks.

My theory is that we simply don't fully understand/connect with it immediately and the better the hifi is the quicker we get that understanding and so move on and buy another album and so on and so on.

Have you noticed how young children can watch something on TV and immediately watch the same thing all over again the same way we listen to albums .Why is that do you think .

So many questions.

Maybe this isn't appropriate for here .
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by donuk »

But all joys want eternity.....
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by beck »

The answer Leo is very simple and Lejonklou has pointed it out before: music has direct contact to your feelings.
It does not need to be understood when performed well. It does not need to be deciphered by your brain.

If the concert was within reach from my armchair I would visit and hear it again.

When you have been given a fulfilling kiss from a woman. Do you then move away and search for a different woman to give you the next one?
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Re: Does a better system make you want to hear the same album less often?

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-08-19 21:00 The answer Leo is very simple and Lejonklou has pointed it out before: music has direct contact to your feelings.
It does not need to be understood when performed well. It does not need to be deciphered by your brain.

If the concert was within reach from my armchair I would visit and hear it again.

When you have been given a fulfilling kiss from a woman. Do you then move away and search for a different woman to give you the next one?
going by that analogy Beck you must have a couple of albums

If the turntable/amp is doing a really bad job then I'd argue that your brain will really have to work hard to decipher it .The way you describe what happens when you listen to music Beck ,you'd be better off getting a massage
Last edited by Lego on 2020-08-20 06:53, edited 1 time in total.
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