Random thoughts on hifi

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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Ron The Mon
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Random-less Thoughts on Walkman Pro

Post by Ron The Mon »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-10-02 17:40
donuk wrote: 2020-10-02 10:35
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-09-15 23:39 I still own a Walkman Pro and used it as my cassette deck in my Linn and Linn/Naim systems back when I was using cassettes. It is actually a very good machine.
I have one too. Excellent machine. I remember one of the UK flat earth hifi magazines in the 1980s maintained that it was the most musical cassette player available, better than Nak's.
Interesting you mention that. I actually compared it to the Nakamichi Dragon a friend and customer owned back in the day. It was very close, with me feeling the WM-D6C was a bit more musical but him liking the Dragon a touch more (considering what he spent on it there may have been some bias). Another interesting point is that the Sony Pro Walkman WM-D6C (to give the full name) is one of only two products from companies other than Linn and Naim that I heard Julian Vereker praise, saying it was a "very good" cassette unit. Interestingly, the Sony is still popular enough that it mostly sells on eBay for the same or more than what it sold for new.
A further interesting point is Exposure made a dedicated power supply for the Walkman Pro. I first saw it in the Exposure U.S. price-list circa 1988, when our shop became a dealer. I asked the U.S. distributor, Audiophore, how it sounded. They said it elevated the Pro Walkman's performance; which would include recording and playback. The Exposure power supply probably cost more than all Walkmen models at the time combined. I am in no way an Exposure expert but essentially, this supply was their Hi-Cap equivalent adjusted to 4.5V and included a custom cable.

To this day, I have never heard or seen (including photos) this product. I have also never read of anyone hearing it or seen one used.

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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by donuk »

I understand that one reason the Walkman Pro was so good was because it internally generates its own DC at a higher voltage rail. Which is why it is impossibly expensive on batteries. I remember having to change them at an interval to record a concert! Sony's own mains power supply seemed quite good, was quite a brick by modern standards and was probably linear.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by ThomasOK »

I have a vague recollection of a Hi-Cap rigged up to power a Pro Walkman, possibly along with a preamp. I don't believe this was anything that Naim actually did (at least not for customers) but more likely something Tim at Audiophile Systems made for Gary or Tony. My WM-D6C came with a small wall-wart power supply which I believe was linear. Did they even have switch-mode power supplies for audio gear in the 70s? I wandered into a competitor's store one time and saw that they had one of the big brick Sony power supplies for next to nothing as it didn't work. It was literally about the size of a building brick and the same voltage as the WM-D6C one so I bought it. Apparently it had been dropped hard in shipping as the circuit board was cracked in half, but due to it being a fairly simple design I was able to wire past the couple of broken traces and it worked fine. I did a quick comparison one time and didn't really notice any difference between it and the smaller one.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by corry »

I had a Naim SNAPS modified to power my WM-D6C. I still have both. I originally bought the WM because it was both small, and reputed to be a Nak-killer, but I never got along with it: despite having had it serviced twice, speed stability was just terrible, though in other respects the sound was quite good. Some day, when I have the time and the inclination, I may resurrect it (it's currently in a box, gathering dust).
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by WheresMyNaim »

On this forum is the evaluation method The Tune Dem™ by Linn, the tune method or TuneDem?
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by lejonklou »

WheresMyNaim wrote: 2020-10-05 15:45 On this forum is the evaluation method The Tune Dem™ by Linn, the tune method or TuneDem?
Tune Dem™ is Linn's method for telling two HiFi items apart during a demonstration and decide which is better and which is worse. They started teaching it in the early 1990's and that's when I learned it as well. Its purpose is to focus your mind on musical qualities only and ignore the typical HiFi parameters. The origin of Tune Dem™ is how musicians tune their instruments, learn a new melody and practice playing together. Therefore, when using the method, we basically ignore the presence of the HiFi and only discuss what is a happening to the musicians and their performance.

We've had a lot of discussions on this forum around how to perform it, to which degree us users of the method agree and where we sometimes diverge when facing delicate nuances. These discussions have been both interesting and fruitful, in my opinion. The only thing that is not allowed is to question the validity of the method or why it's used by us in here.

The reason I consistently call it the Tune Method is that Linn decided to trademark Tune Dem™. Also, while it always involves a comparison, it doesn't have to be a demonstration.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by WheresMyNaim »

Thank you for clarifying! I trust Tune Dem™. However, I question the validity of my core beliefs daily. I will attempt to suppress that scientific impulse on this forum for Tune Dem™.

Bible on left night stand. Linn Tune Dem™ print out on right night stand. Good to go.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by lejonklou »

WheresMyNaim wrote: 2020-10-05 21:05 Thank you for clarifying! I trust Tune Dem™. However, I question the validity of my core beliefs daily. I will attempt to suppress that scientific impulse on this forum for Tune Dem™.

Bible on left night stand. Linn Tune Dem™ print out on right night stand. Good to go.
Ha ha!

To me there is no faith involved in the Tune Method. It's a method I use that gives consistent and repeatable results.

If you think that you will need to suppress your scientific impulses on this forum, you've completely misunderstood the Tune Method.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by WheresMyNaim »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-05 22:19 Ha ha!

To me there is no faith involved in the Tune Method. It's a method I use that gives consistent and repeatable results.

If you think that you will need to suppress your scientific impulses on this forum, you've completely misunderstood the Tune Method.
Ha ha!

I used Tune Dem™ since Linn introduced it - I don't misunderstand it.

You say, "the only thing that is not allowed is to question the validity of the method." Do you misunderstand the key tenets of science?

What are, "the typical HiFi parameters" to ignore? One man's typical is another's atypical.

My finding on Tune Dem™ is the inconsistency of most practitioners to use it accurately and repeatedly.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by lejonklou »

WheresMyNaim wrote: 2020-10-05 22:46 You say, "the only thing that is not allowed is to question the validity of the method." Do you misunderstand the key tenets of science?
That is one of the rules of this forum. You can go anywhere else to discuss the validity of the Tune Method, but in here it's the basis for our discussions. Somehow you seem to confuse house rules with science.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by WheresMyNaim »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-05 23:05
WheresMyNaim wrote: 2020-10-05 22:46 You say, "the only thing that is not allowed is to question the validity of the method." Do you misunderstand the key tenets of science?
That is one of the rules of this forum. You can go anywhere else to discuss the validity of the Tune Method, but in here it's the basis for our discussions. Somehow you seem to confuse house rules with science.
I trust Tune Dem™ as I stated. There's no attempt by me to discuss the validity of a method I use. In my brain there is no confusion, I accept your house rule. However science and philosophy teach us skepticism. Do you never question your key values and beliefs? I do so by training and education. Even for my faith.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by lejonklou »

Yes, I am very skeptical. By nature, nurture and education. If you hang in here for a while, you'll find that most contributors are very open to new discoveries and reevaluating their stances. That's my kind of forum.

At the same time, I also apply strict rules. Because if I visit a Harley forum, I want the discussion to be around Harley. The Honda guys will have to find their own space.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by WheresMyNaim »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-10-05 23:33 Yes, I am very skeptical. By nature, nurture and education. If you hang in here for a while, you'll find that most contributors are very open to new discoveries and reevaluating their stances. That's my kind of forum.

At the same time, I also apply strict rules. Because if I visit a Harley forum, I want the discussion to be around Harley. The Honda guys will have to find their own space.
Sounds good. We're on the same page.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by ThomasOK »

OK, this seemed as good a place as any as it is some random thoughts. Today I was working on a new Majik LP12 to go to a customer, the last one we had with the Jelco arm. I was close to done, finished with the suspension and putting on the bottom, just needing to tune tracking, anti-skating and alignment of mat, belt and platter. Actually the mat and belt were already right, which is what I thought (I can usually tell), but I hadn't tested them at that point. As I'm working on it a lady who was here with her husband came out of Studio C where she was listening to Frank Sinatra on a KDS/3 into a Boazu and $29,000 pair of Dynaudio Confidence 50s (their second to top model). She came over to the setup area where I was playing a beat up Steely Dan "Gaucho" album I use for setup saying she was drawn out of the room by how good the music sounded from the test bench. I told her they weren't very expensive speakers. She expected that meant they were only in the thousands of dollars and her jaw dropped when I told her they were $399! Then I mentioned that it was through a $550 NAD integrated amp which took the surprise further. Her husband came over and was also surprised how good it sounded, especially when he noticed it was going through a $175 Rega Fono Mini. Cue a short description of the LP12 I had built and a brief explanation of the hierarchy, which didn't need much explanation after the unplanned but rather obvious demonstration. An LP12 may end up in their future.

I felt the reaction said something both about the hierarchy and the reason so many of us love vinyl. A very gratifying experience! The LP12 has since been completed and sounds even better now with the proper platter orientation and a slight tweak to the tracking force.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by OscarH »

That’s a great story Tom and one that I can certainly relate to having worked almost exclusively on source upgrades since joining this forum.

Just to tease you ever so slightly it is off course relevant to note that the record is even higher in the hierarchy and there’s a reason Hi-Fi dealers like to put on some Steely Dan ;)
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

Musical timing is the number one thing in my book that has surpriced me the most listening to all kind of different systems.
It seems to vary from system to system.

When using a conventional turntable I have heard some very convincing clips showing that conical does it best. If that is the case it comes as no surprice to me.
Conical because of its shape can deal with the ever changing angle in which the diamond tracks the groove.

Streaming is a whole chapter of its own. Nothing seems to be predictable.

But as we know all kind of things can make a difference. My bi-wire setup using K400 (3 meters) is slightly less precise than my single-wire K20 (2.5 meters) in this regard.

Musical timing seem to vary when the hunt for sound sets in. So gaining a “better” sound often mean a change of the musical timing.
To which degree this affects us when listening we have to decide for ourselves.

All we can do is listen, compare and decide what works best for our own ears.


Remember: it is not what you hear but how you feel when hearing it! :-)
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by springwood64 »

beck wrote: 2020-10-16 10:33 Musical timing seem to vary when the hunt for sound sets in. So gaining a “better” sound often mean a change of the musical timing.
To which degree this affects us when listening we have to decide for ourselves.

All we can do is listen, compare and decide what works best for our own ears.
I've found that if I focus on timing and try to ignore "sound", then I can more reliably hear improvements that then bring with them sound that I can enjoy without fatiguing.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2020-10-03 00:59 I’ve compared the Walkman Pro to a Dragon and the Revox cassette deck. The Revox had a very precise and accurate sound, neutral and pure - very Germanic. The Nakamichi sounded less stable and not as well defined, in comparison to the Revox. The Sony’s sound was even less well defined than the Nakamichi. Musically, the Dragon and Revox were poor, whilst the Sony probably set the musicality benchmark for cassette decks. The biggest disappointment of the three was the Dragon. With a name like that, its reputation and its external appearance, I was expecting something special, but in reality, it was just slightly better than one of the 3 head Denon’s for a third of the price.

The Sony was great for a cassette deck. But tbh a record played on a Rega was better than the same record played on the Sony when using an LP12 as the source.

My random thought on HiFi for the day is: if the most musical cassette deck produces a recording which is obviously inferior to the original, and Ivor T was unable to detect the presence of a 16 bit A-D/D-A converter in the signal path when listening to an LP12, then what does it say about the potential for digital recording and playback?
Hey Spannko was there not quite a lot of tweaking required with the dragon to get it singing at its best with whatever tape you used it with?
I have the pro with snaps power supply but I sometimes preferred it with rechargeables especially when walking about :0)
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

Lego,

I’m struggling to remember if the machines were adjusted for the tape being used tbh. It was a long time ago! Did the machines have auto biasing? I can’t remember.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

Personally I find the world of hifi easy enough to dissect and understand looking at it from a distance.

My view:

If you are in it for the music you have to be on your toes and alert. Most of the time when companies introduce their systems to consumers they feel they have to exceed the natural musical performance and “put on” a layer of clear seperation and sound splendor that actually starts to erode the music.
Sound becomes a big priority at the expense of natural music making. Musical timing suffers and so do my enjoyment of the recorded music.

What consumers have to do is to be deadly aware of their own stand. Only that way you can end up with a hifi system that makes you smile and gives you plessure.

Listen and learn. Start with the “playground” on this forum and work your way out in the world.

Understand that buying a hifi system is only the first step. You have to get the setup of the system right.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by lejonklou »

beck wrote: 2020-11-09 10:52 Personally I find the world of hifi easy enough to dissect and understand looking at it from a distance.

My view:

If you are in it for the music you have to be on your toes and alert. Most of the time when companies introduce their systems to consumers they feel they have to exceed the natural musical performance and “put on” a layer of clear seperation and sound splendor that actually starts to erode the music.
Sound becomes a big priority at the expense of natural music making. Musical timing suffers and so do my enjoyment of the recorded music.

What consumers have to do is to be deadly aware of their own stand. Only that way you can end up with a hifi system that makes you smile and gives you plessure.

Listen and learn. Start with the “playground” on this forum and work your way out in the world.

Understand that buying a hifi system is only the first step. You have to get the setup of the system right.
I think that's spot on, beck.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Charlie1 »

+1
I guess that's how the majority of HiFi companies stay in business - by offering new products/upgrades that let their customers hear details and separation that wasn't there before.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Kalle05 »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-11-09 12:36 +1
I guess that's how the majority of HiFi companies stay in business - by offering new products/upgrades that let their customers hear details and separation that wasn't there before.
+1
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

Sadly, everything beck & charlie1 have said is true. I’m pretty sure that the reason companies can get away with releasing unmusical HiFi is because half of buyers are not aware that HiFi systems vary in their ability to play rhythms & tunes, half are aware but are unable to discriminate between those that can, those that can a little bit, and those that can’t. Then there’s the other 95% of lost souls who think that a systems ability to alter the musicality of a piece of music is pure bunkum.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko wrote: 2020-11-09 16:56 Sadly, everything beck & charlie1 have said is true. I’m pretty sure that the reason companies can get away with releasing unmusical HiFi is because half of buyers are not aware that HiFi systems vary in their ability to play rhythms & tunes, half are aware but are unable to discriminate between those that can, those that can a little bit, and those that can’t. Then there’s the other 95% of lost souls who think that a systems ability to alter the musicality of a piece of music is pure bunkum.
I quite agree with the comments from beck and Charlie1 above, as well as what you are saying, Spannko (although I'm not certain I get the math of two halves plus 95% ;-). I'm afraid that one of the biggest problems is that increasingly few manufacturers are in the business to actually deliver musical truth and enjoyment, regardless of what they say. More and more of the companies are purchased by big conglomerates or venture capital firms and are just all about the money. Or they are family owned and are still all about the money. The other big problem is that there seem to be increasingly few dealers that aren't following in the footsteps of the above manufacturers or else just wouldn't know a musical system if it hit them in the face (or ears). Because of this the majority of the potential buying public are never exposed to how musical a system can be, even a modest one like a Rega Planar2, io and a pair of PSB Alpha P5s. If they aren't exposed to it how can they know that it is something desirable?
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