Random thoughts on hifi

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

Moderator: Staff

Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Lego »

Spannko wrote: 2021-06-11 00:32
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-06-10 22:40
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-10 21:44 Sounding good, beck! Music is communication. Once the level of perfromance of the gear allows it to communicate at a high enough level whole vistas of musical genres you didn't understand open up. Isn't it lovely?
I was able to understand and enjoy most genres of music with very low quality of gear. It takes a little effort to learn each completely new genre. But for me the understanding has little relationship with the quality of the gear.
The better the system, the less the effort required to listen to any genre of music. In fact, the best systems are totally effortless.
I agree the better the system the easier it is to understand what's going which doesn't necessarily mean you'll 'dig' it more .

Along the upgrade path I've found that albums I've thought were mediocre previously are now outstanding and also the reverse 😳, usually linked to the talent level of the musicians involved.
I know that tune
Charlie1
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4831
Joined: 2007-12-11 00:30
Location: UK

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Charlie1 »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-06-11 16:19 I developed broad taste in music before I could afford a very high quality system. Even as a young child I was listening to the radio stations my mother chose on the kitchen radio which was pretty cheap and cheerful. My breakthrough moment came at fifteen listening to a Joni Mitchell track (Otis and Marlene) I recorded from the radio on a cheap music centre. That Joni Mitchell band was a stellar line up of jazz icons. For me it was music first. Then came good quality gear.

Everyone has a different path. It makes life more interesting.
Analogue recordings on Lo-Fi AM radio or tape can communicate the music really well.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-06-11 21:47 Analogue recordings on Lo-Fi AM radio or tape can communicate the music really well.
I agree Charlie1. It's part of why I reject the notion that great audio allows effortless understanding of the music. If that was true do away with music degrees, give kids great audio and let "effortless" musical knowledge happen by osmosis. Learning little of worth in life happens effortlessly.

Beato's YouTube video on Amelia by Joni Mitchell explains in detail (sufficient to delight Joni Mitchell) what's happening on the track. You don't get that understanding by listening to high end audio alone. Deep understanding is rarely, if ever, effortless.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-06-11 21:47 Analogue recordings on Lo-Fi AM radio or tape can communicate the music really well.
I agree!
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by FairPlayMotty »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-06-11 21:57
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-06-11 21:47 Analogue recordings on Lo-Fi AM radio or tape can communicate the music really well.
I agree!


Källa Sända next?
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6524
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by lejonklou »

Internet radio is certainly a possibility.
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

FairPlayMotty wrote:
Charlie1 wrote: Analogue recordings on Lo-Fi AM radio or tape can communicate the music really well.
I agree Charlie1. It's part of why I reject the notion that great audio allows effortless understanding of the music. If that was true do away with music degrees, give kids great audio and let "effortless" musical knowledge happen by osmosis. Learning little of worth in life happens effortlessly.

Beato's YouTube video on Amelia by Joni Mitchell explains in detail (sufficient to delight Joni Mitchell) what's happening on the track. You don't get that understanding by listening to high end audio alone. Deep understanding is rarely, if ever, effortless.
To me it has nothing to do with learning or music degrees. It has nothing to do with details understood (and I am a music teacher!).

Great audio does allow effortless understanding of the music. It allows us to understand the human nature of music.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1tpujpvjg0fxy ... 9.mov?dl=0

When I listen to this piece of music I am instantly drawn into a world of human experience and emotion.

This is what I want to happen when listening to music and I want it (at best) to happen effortlessly.
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

beck wrote: 2021-06-12 06:18
FairPlayMotty wrote:
Charlie1 wrote: Analogue recordings on Lo-Fi AM radio or tape can communicate the music really well.
I agree Charlie1. It's part of why I reject the notion that great audio allows effortless understanding of the music. If that was true do away with music degrees, give kids great audio and let "effortless" musical knowledge happen by osmosis. Learning little of worth in life happens effortlessly.

Beato's YouTube video on Amelia by Joni Mitchell explains in detail (sufficient to delight Joni Mitchell) what's happening on the track. You don't get that understanding by listening to high end audio alone. Deep understanding is rarely, if ever, effortless.
To me it has nothing to do with learning or music degrees. It has nothing to do with details understood (and I am a music teacher!).

Great audio does allow effortless understanding of the music. It allows us to understand the human nature of music.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1tpujpvjg0fxy ... 9.mov?dl=0

When I listen to this piece of music I am instantly drawn into a world of human experience and emotion.

This is what I want to happen when listening to music and I want it (at best) to happen effortlessly.
I totally agree beck. I also agree with charlie1’s suggestion that AM radio can sound great (Julian V said that he thought AM sounded better than FM but didn’t make an AM radio because he thought no one would buy it!).

For me, sounding effortless is a great indication of a systems intrinsic musical quality. It’s what we experience when we enter a bar and hear a musician playing in the back room. We may not be able to understand every detail, but the vibrations connect directly with our subconscious. It’s the same with an LP12. Walk into a shop and the sound coming from the dem room is instantly recognisable. We may not be able to hear the details, or even recognise the tune, but our brain is instantly tickled pink! Absolutely no effort is required on our part.

This effortless response to music is something I listen for, and attempt to engineer into my system. I’ll leave the system playing, then close the door and go about my housewifely duties, occasionally popping back to listen through the closed door. Do I get an instant connection with the music, or does it take a while to “latch on”? For me, the faster the connection, the better the system.

This is why I agree with both you and charlie1’s “low fi” suggestion. It’s all about how the system maintains harmonic cohesion, and not “HiFi” presentation.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by FairPlayMotty »

beck wrote: 2021-06-12 06:18
Great audio does allow effortless understanding of the music. It allows us to understand the human nature of music.
I disagree (and I'm not a music teacher but I employed a couple for my daughter).

I'm pleased we've made the leap from "great audio" to an AM radio.

Where Julian didn't want to go perhaps Fredrik will.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by matthias »

beck wrote: 2021-06-12 06:18 Great audio does allow effortless understanding of the music. It allows us to understand the human nature of music.
I agree,
but from a Sourst First POV the artist allows effortless understanding of the music in the first place.
If the artist does not provide this then great audio is useless. But if the artist does then the better audio allows better underrstanding of the music.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

matthias wrote: 2021-06-12 13:39
beck wrote: 2021-06-12 06:18 Great audio does allow effortless understanding of the music. It allows us to understand the human nature of music.
I agree,
but from a Sourst First POV the artist allows effortless understanding of the music in the first place.
If the artist does not provide this then great audio is useless. But if the artist does then the better audio allows better underrstanding of the music.

Matt
Thanks for clearing that up Matt. 😂🤣😂
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by FairPlayMotty »

matthias wrote: 2021-06-12 13:39
beck wrote: 2021-06-12 06:18 Great audio does allow effortless understanding of the music. It allows us to understand the human nature of music.
I agree,
but from a Sourst First POV the artist allows effortless understanding of the music in the first place.
If the artist does not provide this then great audio is useless. But if the artist does then the better audio allows better underrstanding of the music.

Matt
Did you ever attend an Ornette Coleman and Prime Time concert? Even for someone who listened to masses of jazz Ornette & co. did not make it effortless. I recall being surrounded by an audience of confused listeners.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by matthias »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-06-12 14:28 Did you ever attend an Ornette Coleman and Prime Time concert? Even for someone who listened to masses of jazz Ornette & co. did not make it effortless. I recall being surrounded by an audience of confused listeners.
Yes, I understand what you mean. The term "effortless" is not right here. Sometimes understanding the music is like climbing a mountain, it is NOT effortless. However, also in this context the better audio system will provide some better understanding of the music in comparison even when the music is difficult to understand.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

+1

We want to avoid the hifi adding another disharmonic layer making it even more difficult to understand the music.
Playing cd’s…………
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

FPM & Matt,

You’re using the literal meaning of understand(ing) as it would usually be understood and used. In this sense, I agree with you both: there’s no chance we will ever “understand” music, unless the composer gives us a detailed explanation. The best we can do is generate our own interpretation of what we hear.

However, “musical understanding” has its own meaning on this forum. Fredrik describes it by saying, “The idea is that by focusing on your understanding of the music - or more specifically the melody or tune of the song - you are not distracted by details, the general sound character or other more subjective perceptions of the sound.”

The literal meaning is subjective, Fredrik’s meaning is purely objective.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Spannko wrote: 2021-06-12 15:04
The literal meaning is subjective, Fredrik’s meaning is purely objective.
Our comprehension of objective and subjective are different. Rick Beato got a signed gift from Joni Mitchell (and a subsequent three hour lunch) for explaining what was happening, in detail, on one track. Rick understands.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-06-12 15:09
Spannko wrote: 2021-06-12 15:04
The literal meaning is subjective, Fredrik’s meaning is purely objective.
Our comprehension of objective and subjective are different. Rick Beato got a signed gift from Joni Mitchell (and a subsequent three hour lunch) for explaining what was happening, in detail, on one track. Rick understands.
On this occasion, his interpretation was correct. However, it was nothing more than a lucky guess.

How do our understandings of objective and subjective differ?
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Spannko wrote: 2021-06-12 16:22
On this occasion, his interpretation was correct. However, it was nothing more than a lucky guess.
As Gary Player said, "the more I practice the luckier I get".
Spannko wrote: 2021-06-12 16:22
How do our understandings of objective and subjective differ?
Totally.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2021-06-12 16:35".
Spannko wrote: 2021-06-12 16:22
How do our understandings of objective and subjective differ?
Totally.
I don’t understand. Please explain what you mean.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Spannko wrote: 2021-06-12 17:03
I don’t understand.
Objectively or subjectively?
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

Maybe you could explain why I should think you’re not trolling.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Spannko wrote: 2021-06-12 17:17 Maybe you could explain why I should think you’re not trolling.
I'll leave that to the experts.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by ThomasOK »

This discussion is going around in circles. There are certainly pieces of music that have taken me several listenings to understand, King Crimson's Lizard album being a prime example in my life, as I didn't like it at all until I had listened to it about five times. However, I also think it is hard to dispute that the things a system can do to a piece of music can make it even more difficult to understand. How can you truly understand something if the system alters the pitches and tempo? On the other hand music is a communication of emotions and much of it was made to naturally talk to us. You don't need to actually understand the music like the composer/performers do to be able to connect with the music. And I have heard several musicians say that what audiences got out of the music is totally different than what they intended. But many are happy with that preferring people connect with the music with their own interpretation rather than not connect with it. I connect to songs that are in languages I don't understand but I can still get the feeling of it. Which gives me the perfect excuse to post this video as it is in German and is one of the coolest things I have seen on youtube:

https://youtu.be/Q2_rHQvKFq4

This doesn't mean that you can't get enjoyment out of a cheap system or radio. In many cases the natural limitations of bandwidth and complexity in such devices helps reduce audible problems. Your basic table radio has a simple, low power amp driving a full range small driver. All the problems of crossovers and complex amplifier circuits are thereby eliminated. Attempts to scale that up to fill a living room at highish levels and cover the full frequency range while keeping the simplicity haven't been effective so far (at least for an entire system).

In the end, when my system is operating well the music moves me regardless of the genre and will catch my attention even when I am doing something else. When a system, often an expensive one, is not happening the music leaves me flat. That may not rise to the definition some have of "understanding" but it certainly has everything to do with feeling the connection. That to me is the most important aspect.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by matthias »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-12 17:37 https://youtu.be/Q2_rHQvKFq4
Produced by The O’Keefe Music Foundation

Is it your foundation, Thomas?

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by ThomasOK »

matthias wrote: 2021-06-12 20:08
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-06-12 17:37 https://youtu.be/Q2_rHQvKFq4
Produced by The O’Keefe Music Foundation

Is it your foundation, Thomas?

Matt
No relation. I just accidentally ran into this video and didn't realize until the end where it came from. They are in Ohio which is just SouthEast of Michigan so they are pretty close to me. I found the singing pretty amazing from a 9 year old girl. After listening to it I went back and listened to the original. All I could think is "Where is the 55 gallon oil drum being beat on with an aluminum baseball bat?" It seemed like it should be part of the piece. :-)
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Post Reply