Random thoughts on hifi

We use the Tune Method to evaluate performance

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beck
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Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

Imagine a fist right in front of you. You can feel it touching the tip of your nose. Think of this as the music in the studio when the musicians listen back on what they have recorded using their studio monitors.
It is a dense full musical listen almost as standing in front of them when they play their instruments.

Start at 25 min and on for a couple of minutes....

https://youtu.be/ClX42OjmbuE

Then imagine the fist 20 cm away from your nose. You can now focus on details on the fist. The surface of the skin. The freckles and more.
Think of this as sitting at home listening to a flat earth system still feeling some density and punch but less than in the studio.

Now pull the fist further away and you now start to notice the surroundings around the fist. The background and more.
Now you experience the music at a distance. If the fist is still centered you hear the music as natural and entertaining. You also notice a lot of details not directly related to the fist itself.

If the fist is off center the music has been changed and you hear all kind of things meddling with the music making it less enjoyable to listen to.

From here we can move the fist further and further away from our nose making the experience less and less dense, more and more observing from a distance.

If the above “picture” has any merit we can experience music in many different ways.

You can find replay that is close to the way musicians listen to the music when playing. Think of dry close mic. recordings.

You can also find replay that pulls away from the “in your face” experience to focus more on other things (less flat earth like).

If we with our hifi systems can get the “fist” centered the replay still feels like music whatever the distance is but the experience will feel differently depending on the same.



With my Sondek/Klyde setup I got a flat earth experience I enjoyed. With my cd player the fist has been moved a little further away from my nose but I can still center it and enjoy the music.
Some would call my cd replay more “skeletal” and I can follow that sentiment. I cannot quite get the same dense experience as with my Sondek/Klyde system.

No doubt I enjoy and seek “flat earth” sound more than anything else from hifi systems but music can be presented in many ways still being “music”.


Feel free to comment and disagree!
Last edited by beck on 2020-07-12 21:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Spannko
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

I think I’m with you here beck, although I do feel that some digital systems can replace the flesh on the bones! ☠️☠️☠️

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be describing the “sound” and “impact” of a system, and that although the presentation may change, what’s presented can still be called “music”. How does your normal method of evaluating a system fit in with what you describe?
beck
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

Regardless the exact placement of the “fist” listening when comparing always for me start with the flow and feeling of the musical timing. Does it relate well to what I experience live? Then comes all the other aspects of music. That is just what works best for me.
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Spannko
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

Sorry beck, I’m still struggling to understand your Danglish blanding 😉

What I think you’re saying is that flow and the feeling of musical timing is most important, then you’d prefer a fist on the nose to one at a distance. However, if you can’t have it on your nose, any distance will do so long as the flow and feeling of musical timing are present.
beck
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

That pretty much sums it up.

And sorry, english is not my native language! 😝😝😝
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Spannko
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

I absolutely agree. I’d rather have a tuneful supermarket HiFi for €100 than anything else, at any price, that can’t bang out a tune.
Charlie1
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Charlie1 »

I was a bit confused by the fist bit but I’m all for musical timing, whether the fist is near of far.

Thanks for the clip. Interesting to watch them at work.
beck
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

On the subject of sound try this:

Snap your fingers in front of your nose and move the hand away from your face and from side to side while snapping them still.
What do you think about our ears ability to pinpoint the exact position of the snapping fingers?

I find the result interesting in that we can hear the position in a kind of soft way. I prefer hifi systems that does not try too hard to pinpoint positions of recorded sounds.

You can try the above with all kind of different things that produce an interesting sound.


When we walk around and use our eyes looking at the surroundings the 3D we experience is also very subtle and soft and I tend to prefer.......................well you can finish the sentence for me! :-)
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Charlie1
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Charlie1 »

Makes sense beck.
beck
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-07-12 23:50
Thanks for the clip. Interesting to watch them at work.
You are welcome. :-)

What I find so interesting is to watch and hear what they focus on. So far away from the audiophile world.

Speaking of sound and music. Listen to the last minute (from 5.00) of this:

https://youtu.be/sjCVG3mPJUg

So beautiful that it simply breaks my heart when he stops........


The song is “Even In The Quietest Moments”.
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Charlie1
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Charlie1 »

Nice video. Plenty to contemplate in that, but perhaps beyond the realms of a hifi forum.

Coincidently, I've been getting into 'Crisis, What Crisis?' quite a lot the past couple of weeks. Good album.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

CWC was one of my favourite albums of the 70’s. I’m going to go and have a listen now! The live album “Paris” is a great album too.
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Re: Random thoughts on Supertramp and hifi

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-07-13 13:35
Coincidently, I've been getting into 'Crisis, What Crisis?' quite a lot the past couple of weeks. Good album.
One of their albums I never got around to listen to. I am changing that now! :-)


I love listening to albums recorded in the seventies. They have so much “life” in their sound and music.
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Charlie1
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Charlie1 »

+1

Yes, I think I prefer them in general to 80s recordings, even the ones that seem all analogue.

60s original pressings often sound a bit brash to me, especially rock/pop. The reissues in 70s and 80s often sound more paletable, albeit less tuneful.

And of course the 50s jazz stuff on blue note etc just sounds wonderful.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-07-13 22:47 +1

Yes, I think I prefer them in general to 80s recordings, even the ones that seem all analogue.

60s original pressings often sound a bit brash to me, especially rock/pop. The reissues in 70s and 80s often sound more paletable, albeit less tuneful.

And of course the 50s jazz stuff on blue note etc just sounds wonderful.
Fully agree with you on those!
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Lego »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-07-13 22:47 +1

Yes, I think I prefer them in general to 80s recordings, even the ones that seem all analogue.

60s original pressings often sound a bit brash to me, especially rock/pop. The reissues in 70s and 80s often sound more paletable, albeit less tuneful.

And of course the 50s jazz stuff on blue note etc just sounds wonderful.
Must disagree about blue note,not sure if it was their studios or equipment but I found blue note recordings to be too sterile for me .If you want to hear a tuneful recording listen to any Art Pepper album on Contemporary Records.
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Re: Random thoughts on Supertramp and hifi

Post by Lego »

beck wrote: 2020-07-13 19:50
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-07-13 13:35
Coincidently, I've been getting into 'Crisis, What Crisis?' quite a lot the past couple of weeks. Good album.
One of their albums I never got around to listen to. I am changing that now! :-)


I love listening to albums recorded in the seventies. They have so much “life” in their sound and music.
Thanks for the link Beck although I dont know if it was my Pye 1602 but I always remember my Genesis albums sounding rubbish,even when I see them now I'm scared to play them
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beck
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

Lego wrote: 2020-07-17 14:39
beck wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:
Coincidently, I've been getting into 'Crisis, What Crisis?' quite a lot the past couple of weeks. Good album.
One of their albums I never got around to listen to. I am changing that now! :-)


I love listening to albums recorded in the seventies. They have so much “life” in their sound and music.
Thanks for the link Beck although I dont know if it was my Pye 1602 but I always remember my Genesis albums sounding rubbish,even when I see them now I'm scared to play them
:-)

I know what you are getting at. Through my system even using my cd player they make sense in a dry direct (into the mic sound) way.
Close to the character of the direct sound from the musicians PA system.

I really like that kind of “no nonsense” or should I say “no pretence” sound.


Just to be clear these albums (Genesis) has nothing to do with the 1970’s albums discussed in the quates.
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Lego »

Ok I'll have another listen Beck .Good memories
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beck
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

When you get your system “clocked” it does not matter what you put on. You will listen to music first and sound second. Like looking at a person dressed up differently (sound) from day to day. It is the same person (music).

Getting there is the hard bit.
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Charlie1
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Charlie1 »

+1 to that beck! 😁
donuk
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by donuk »

I think as a first step in judging your hifi, you have to decide in advance what exactly you expect to hear. If you have been to lots of the wrong sort of hifi shows and dealers you will expect to hear a hifi system and judge it accordingly. Phrases like "sound stage", "holographic", "powerful bass", "amazing dynamics", and "amazing detail" will abound.

And that is fine if that is what you want. But be careful what you wish for.

Personally I prefer, In general, the sort of music that can be created live. I find the problem with electronic music is that it is difficult to know what its creator had in mind. Might as well get a graphic equaliser and tweak to what suits you best.

I have spent most of my life both playing in jazz bands and going to all sorts of concerts. Ideally at a concert I would like to sit in the middle of the fifth row, with nobody else there. Which is how I try set set up and appraise my listening room.

This means that I find most hifi systems too bright. I do not want to have my ears singed by cymbols, nor my chest vibrated by bass notes. I have suffered too much of that sitting amongst them professionally!

Neither do I desire 3-D imaging. That does not occur in reality from the fifth row. But from my seat there the whole musical product can be enjoyed and understood.

By this means I have had my hifi to keep me just about sane during covid lockdown and have enjoyed many good concerts in my armchair.

Keep listening and philosophising guys....

Donuk beautiful downtown York
Spannko
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by Spannko »

I think you’re bang on there Don!

I’d love to set up my system so that I can sit 5 rows back too. Unfortunately, my listening room is about 4 rows too short 😂
beck
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

Listening to Das Lied von der Erde ( "Das Trinklied vom Jammer der Erde" ("The Drinking Song of Earth's Sorrow)) by Mahler I remember many years ago at the dawn of cd when the motto was to take a pill against headache and put on your opera cd to listen.

We sure have come a long way since then.

And yes I do feel like sitting in the 5th row or somewhere close by! 😃
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beck
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Re: Random thoughts on hifi

Post by beck »

So, the search for truely musical systems at some point in time became less profitable and the hunt for fantastic sound became the direction to go.

If you listen to most of the high end equipment you can find on the internet and in stores around it will be obvious at some point that the core musicality has been neglected to make room for sound splendor.

I do not think the average consumer notice and the hifi industry talk about enhancing the musical experience while choosing a path that leads costumers into a wilderness of opportunities to change the sound in any direction they like.

Will this in the end make for satisfied music listening?

I think most will enjoy the “sounds” they hear but at the same time they will be easy pray for the industry that always will be able to show them something even more “fantastic”.

Music will live on where we make room for it and for cheap money we can collect a small system at home and listen to amazing performances by amazing artists like we have done for as long as the equipment to transmit music has been available to us.

To me personally music comes alive when I forget the sound.
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