What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

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Hermann
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What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Hermann »

In the past days I have experimented a lot with the briks in terms of set-up and bass response. Problem described here: https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5053.

Did not come to a satisfying result. Although the bass gets a bit better when the briks are placed as close as possible to the wall and also when I pull them forward and put something "hard" behind them to minimize the excitation of the wall.

Still, I'm thinking about changing the speakers and there aren't many that come into consideration. One would be the Naim NBL. And therefore my question, does someone from the forum run it and if so, what are his experiences with a plaster wall behind it.

Are the NBL an adequate replacement for the briks?
Last edited by Hermann on 2020-06-06 04:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are NBL's an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Defender »

hi Hermann,
what I would recommend is to reach out to Ron The Mon first - I think I read somewhere that he is confident that the Briks can throw out a lot bass energy.
You need to be sure that you dont run into the same issues with new loudspeakers because of your room situation.
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Re: Are NBL's an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by V.A.MKD »

Defender wrote: 2020-06-05 17:47 hi Hermann,
what I would recommend is to reach out to Ron The Mon first - I think I read somewhere that he is confident that the Briks can throw out a lot bass energy.
You need to be sure that you dont run into the same issues with new loudspeakers because of your room situation.
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Re: Are NBL's an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by ThomasOK »

I'd be a little leery of the NBLs. A customer I do turntable work for has a pair and is a bit trigger happy having blown the mids a couple of times. The mids are no longer available for love or money so his are just dead.
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Hermann »

Thanks to all

Of course I don't want to run into the same trap with other speakers. It's just getting harder and harder to get a homedemo from the dealer. This was already the case in the days when the Ovator series was launched by Naim. No dealer was able to set up a homedemo at that time, although there are many Naim dealers within a 100km radius. Won't be any better these days, rather worse.

Furthermore my current dealer offers B&W, Manger and Linn, which I don't know what to do with.

Of course I have to consider Tom's argument about spare parts. NBLs are rare and Naim will certainly not stock any spare parts. Therefore they are quite cheap.

Actually, I have three options
- With the system in the hall, i.e. one floor down(very much effort)
- Building a wall of stone behind the briks (as much effort)
- Speakers that are not critical to the installation

Well, I'm gonna go see what Ron and Tony have to say about that.

The title has been changed as recommendations are very welcome.
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by HansW »

Hi Hermann,

I have no experience with Briks but have lived with a pair of NBL’s for the last 14 years (without ever blowing out mids, tweeters or bass units or needing to repair anything else). I have been very satisfied with them while I have upgraded everything else several times. Source and amplification upgrades have made a big impact while they also sounded great initially with Naim CDS/52/250 and a LP12/Aro/Armageddon/Dynavector DRt xv-1s.
They are similar, but better in every way, to the Naim SBLs that preceeded them. I have a fairly large room which the SBLs had problems fillling; no such issues with the NBLs. For me, the bass quality is a main attraction. Bass resolution is great, and the sound is very coherent, top-to-bottom, it is musical and it can play tunes. Bass quantity is not great however and in this aspect you may find it wanting compared to Briks. I thought the trade-off worthwhile but have recently added two subs that have improved bass, and overall performance greatly.
They are fairly slim but deep and are best placed 15-30 cm away from the front wall. Perhaps this means that they are relying less on front wall interaction and therefore less sensitive to the constriction of the wall - but this is speculation.

At current second-hand prices they offfer extremely good value for money.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Hans
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Pedro »

I also cannot recommend the NBLs.

A friend of mine has had a complete active Naim NBL chain including 12 levels of Naim Fraim for almost € 100,000 for many years.
The system just doesn't play musically, I can't listen there for more than 10 minutes, even when the LP12 is running! - It is always exhausting and not fun at all.

If you are also considering an active solution, I can recommend used Keltiks. The bass reproduction was always excellent, never too little bass. I have enjoyed listening to many variations for 25 years and previously had passive and active Isobariks.
At home, I also listened to Kudo's Titan with 2 Linn Solos, which I liked a lot, but this combination was very expensive.

Then I happened upon a pair of used Komri ...

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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Spannko »

I’ve heard a naim dem using the NBL’s. It was very disappointing. For such a big speaker, the bass was not only weak, but also totally tuneless.

I’ve heard the Keltiks on several occasions, including at the Linn factory, and on each occasion I was left completely underwhelmed.
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Charlie1 »

What about paying for someone to construct a brick wall behind the briks, or is that not possible?
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Tendaberry »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-06-06 20:51 What about paying for someone to construct a brick wall behind the briks, or is that not possible?
Shouldn't that be Brik wall? ;-)
For what it's worth, I've never heard underwhelming Keltiks nor Briks that lack bass. Maybe a nice pair of Komris is the way forward?
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by matthias »

Hermann wrote: 2020-06-06 05:48 Actually, I have three options
- With the system in the hall, i.e. one floor down(very much effort)
- Building a wall of stone behind the briks (as much effort)
- Speakers that are not critical to the installation
Hi Hermann,

I have neither experience with the Isobariks nor with the NBLs but I can share my experiences with the JBL3677s.

The 3677s are high sensitivity two-way speakers which have virtually no output under 40 Hz.
However in my 50 sqm living room I have never had the impression that they are bass shy. They are placed approx. 10 cm from the wall which is made from 36,5cm thick bricks.

IMHO, stay with the Isobariks and move them to a brick walled and not over-damped environment if possible.

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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Defender »

Hi Hermann,

I was trying to put myself into your shoes with reading all advice given. I know a little bit more from yourself and what you already tried which in one way or the other is what others recommended.
However I was than going through your options:

1 With the system in the hall, i.e. one floor down(very much effort)
2 Building a wall of stone behind the briks (as much effort)
3 speaker that are not critical to the installation

With Option 2 I know you have done experiments with that and you have been obviously not happy with the outcome.

This shows you want to keep your system where it is right now because what you did instead of trying the other floor was already a lot of effort.

Here are some questions:
What do you do if you build a wall and that still doesn't solve your issue?
Or you buy other loudspeakers and your problem doesn't change?
Why are you sure your issue is either related to the loudspeakers you have or the room?

I would try to build a test setup downstairs ... only devices moved (no racks) and see if it improves on the issues you have.

Only food for thought.

Why I am recommending that: I always suspected my loudspeakers to mess up my musical experience but only after I changed some things more closer to the source I realized my loudspeakers actually have not been the issue.
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Adequate Replacement For The Briks

Post by Ron The Mon »

Hermann,
The only speaker I've heard better than Isobariks personally is KEF 107s. You are in a different market than I but they sell for around the same price as Isobariks. Most have a foam disintegration problem that is inexpensive to repair and easy if you are handy. There are several tutorials that owners have put online making it look easy to fix.

I have heard KEF 107 speakers twice. Once was semi-directly to Isobariks with Naim 42-5/Hicap/135s. Sources were LP12 and NAT-01. I had an opportunity to listen to the NAT-01 over several hours through the KEFs. It sounded fantastic. Still to this day it's one of the best hi-fis I've ever heard.

About five years ago I heard another set of KEF 107s with Mark Levinson amps fronted by a Basis turntable and some really expensive moving coil. It was in a basement on a concrete floor and poured concrete walls. Bass was very "firm". Not just deep, but taut. I preferred my hi-fi but this was a satisfying listen.

Both speakers were original 107s not the KEF 107/2. I'm not sure which sound better. Both systems didn't use the KEF KUBE equalizer that comes with the KEF 107 speakers.

This made me think you could try a KUBE. I've seen them sold used separately for around $100, so worth a try. The purpose of the KUBE is to "contour" the bass, meaning to increase response in rooms needing it. This is a lot less expensive to try than building a wall.

You didn't mention DBLs but NBLs? Did you once own DBLs? I heard them once with LP12/72/Hicap/135s but would rather have the Naim/KEF 107 system I mentioned above.

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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Hermann »

Thank you for your comments, which are very welcome. I'll see what I can do. The briks are not yet carved in stone... :-)

But there is an updade in the "missing bass" thread, so I don't want to post twice here.
https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5053

@Ron
I know the DBL very well, passive and active. Would be a good exchange. I do not know the NBL, only by descriptions. However, I could listen to them extensively.

The KEFs are hardly used on the market, my search revealed. I keep an eye on it.

@Defender
These are many questions, which I also ask myself and currently have no answers. Setting up a test setup is hardly possible, but I am already thinking about listening to the briks downstairs with a 32.5/140.

The suggestions here are stored and I'm looking for other speakers in parallel. The effort in the living room is actually manageable. It is also a fact that new speakers cost considerably more than a stone wall of 2m x 5m.
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Lego »

I'd just move to Glasgow and buy a large tenement flat.Early Linn speakers were designed to be played in a room that had 4 proper walls, preferably with at least a 3 foot thick wall behind Briks ,not even sure about windows 😁
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by sunbeamgls »

Lego wrote: 2020-07-25 08:04 I'd just move to Glasgow and buy a large tenement flat.Early Linn speakers were designed to be played in a room that had 4 proper walls, preferably with at least a 3 foot thick wall behind Briks ,not even sure about windows 😁
There's something very satisfying about a contributor called "Lego" contributing to a thread about 'briks :)
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by beck »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2020-07-25 17:46
Lego wrote: I'd just move to Glasgow and buy a large tenement flat.Early Linn speakers were designed to be played in a room that had 4 proper walls, preferably with at least a 3 foot thick wall behind Briks ,not even sure about windows 😁
There's something very satisfying about a contributor called "Lego" contributing to a thread about 'briks :)
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Lego »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2020-07-25 17:46
Lego wrote: 2020-07-25 08:04 I'd just move to Glasgow and buy a large tenement flat.Early Linn speakers were designed to be played in a room that had 4 proper walls, preferably with at least a 3 foot thick wall behind Briks ,not even sure about windows 😁
There's something very satisfying about a contributor called "Lego" contributing to a thread about 'briks :)
😁
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by hcl »

Hermann wrote: 2020-06-05 13:35 In the past days I have experimented a lot with the briks in terms of set-up and bass response. Problem described here: https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5053.

...

Are the NBL an adequate replacement for the briks?
I have no serious experience with the NBLs, but lived with Linn Isobarik for some extended time (first passive then followed by activate ones).

After having used them for about 10 years I noticed they became more difficult to get to sound right (as they used to...) so I checked the tweeters (compared to new ones), which showed that I probably run the Briks a bit hard (as the tweeters were already quite worn). At the same time as replacing the tweeters I also dis-mounted the front woofers to check how the inner woofers where doing and I was göad I did, beacuse all screws was rather loose and twoof them was actually rattling in their holes. After having fixed that they where as good as new again.

Sinse then I have moved on and now use 212 (first version, active, which I find better than the upgrade one) and a K345. This system sounds a bit differen from the Briks,, but is better than the older system - musically. Although maybe not as exiting sounding as the Briks could at times, but I would not go back.
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by lindsayt »

In my home, my Briks are beaten by:

Bozak Symphony speakers (bought for £500 about ten years ago). Significantly more tuneful bass than the Briks. Midrange and treble at least on a par.

EV Sentry III speakers (bought for £415 plus £80ish in repair costs). More tuneful midrange and treble.

EV Patrician 800 speakers (bought for £5500). More tuneful midrange treble and bass.

It's really not difficult to find speakers that are better than Linn Isobariks. Especially if you are willing to accept large to huge speakers. But then Isobariks are ugly and pretty large. So going to Bozak or EV sized speakers is not a big leap.
My wife prefers the looks of my Bozaks to my Briks, because the Bozaks are lighter in colour and more cheerful looking.

There are a number of classic JBL and Altec speakers that would sound more tuneful than Briks.
Plus it wouldn't be difficult to make your own DIY Brik beating speakers.
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by hcl »

lindsayt wrote: 2020-07-28 11:46 In my home, my Briks are beaten by:

Bozak Symphony speakers (bought for £500 about ten years ago). Significantly more tuneful bass than the Briks. Midrange and treble at least on a par.

EV Sentry III speakers (bought for £415 plus £80ish in repair costs). More tuneful midrange and treble.

EV Patrician 800 speakers (bought for £5500). More tuneful midrange treble and bass.

It's really not difficult to find speakers that are better than Linn Isobariks. Especially if you are willing to accept large to huge speakers. But then Isobariks are ugly and pretty large. So going to Bozak or EV sized speakers is not a big leap.
My wife prefers the looks of my Bozaks to my Briks, because the Bozaks are lighter in colour and more cheerful looking.

There are a number of classic JBL and Altec speakers that would sound more tuneful than Briks.
Plus it wouldn't be difficult to make your own DIY Brik beating speakers.
I wasn't familiar with the speakers you mention so did a search and found some humongus systems. For example > this <
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by lindsayt »

hcl wrote: 2020-07-28 20:04
lindsayt wrote: 2020-07-28 11:46 In my home, my Briks are beaten by:

Bozak Symphony speakers (bought for £500 about ten years ago). Significantly more tuneful bass than the Briks. Midrange and treble at least on a par.

EV Sentry III speakers (bought for £415 plus £80ish in repair costs). More tuneful midrange and treble.

EV Patrician 800 speakers (bought for £5500). More tuneful midrange treble and bass.

It's really not difficult to find speakers that are better than Linn Isobariks. Especially if you are willing to accept large to huge speakers. But then Isobariks are ugly and pretty large. So going to Bozak or EV sized speakers is not a big leap.
My wife prefers the looks of my Bozaks to my Briks, because the Bozaks are lighter in colour and more cheerful looking.

There are a number of classic JBL and Altec speakers that would sound more tuneful than Briks.
Plus it wouldn't be difficult to make your own DIY Brik beating speakers.
I wasn't familiar with the speakers you mention so did a search and found some humongus systems. For example > this <
My EV Patrician 800's look the same as this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Elec ... SwAfVdr~iw
They are corner horns with the corner of the room being used as an extension of the bass horn. They sound best positioned about one inch from the corners of the room. This means that they intrude less into a room than tiny ported speakers that need to be placed out into the room. So huge size, but very practical in terms of having them plus a load of other furniture in a living room. One downside is that it's best if you have 2 suitable corners to place them in. IE not blocking any doors etc.

Here's a pair of EV Sentry III speakers:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Electro-Voice- ... Swiglcq9oD
They look better with the grills on.

And here's what my Bozak Symphony speakers look like:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pair-o ... SwRbpcAx5f

I can speculate as to why my Isobariks are only my 4th most tuneful sounding speakers in my home. My speculation is that the drivers in them aren't particularly good. For example those racetrack bass drivers in the Briks have relatively high moving mass for the area and magnetic field they sit in. As reflected in their efficiency, compared to the variable density 12" Bozak woofers. Or the 15" woofers in the Sentries or the 12" and 30" woofers in the Patricians.

And, above all, there are plenty of other classic speakers that sound more tuneful than Linn Isobariks.
I bought the speakers that I did because I saw attractive deals on them. There are quite a few other speakers I could have bought instead, if I'd seen a good deal on them. IE don't necessarily go out and buy what I bought. Go and buy what seems like a good candidate at the right price and compare that against your Briks or whatever speaker you currently own.

And for the ultimate speaker, the best route is probably a DIY Frankenstein project where you pick the best drivers from different manufacturers / speakers that can be bought used for reasonable money. And then you blend them together with DIY'd crossovers or an adjustable / programable active crossover.
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by linesrg »

Hermann wrote: 2020-06-05 13:35 In the past days I have experimented a lot with the briks in terms of set-up and bass response. Problem described here: https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5053.
Hermann,

Forgive me if I missed it as I have only speed read this and the previous post linked above - you have checked to make sure that both woofers are functional and that you're not suffering from a blown coil?

As regards an adequate replacement for your older Briks then yes try a later, Kustone, pair.

Getting a hold of something that will allow you try out Linn's Sound Optimisation may possibly assist in determining if the problem is room related?

Regards

Richard
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Re: What is an adequate replacement for the briks?

Post by Hermann »

Thanks a lot for your contribution. It's been a long time since I was able to tackle the problem. But one thing is clear by now, the room is not suitable for the briks.

The bass drivers were checked when the external crossovers were replaced by internal ones. Since the speakers were new when I bought them and rarely caused earthquakes with them, they should be fine.

Nevertheless there are new findings. As soon as the briks are placed directly against the wall, the bass is much better, sometimes already too much. Between briks and wall are now four 1m long, 30cm wide and about 7cm thick "decouplers". The material consists of pressed plastic. Since the briks are still standing on my selfmade brikmover, they are pressed firmly against the wall and fixed as good as possible. This means, as soon as the wall behind the brikmover is calmed down, they will work at normal volume, not quieter, because there is no pressure in the bass.

So it doesn't help, either a subwoofer or new speakers.
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