hello, I spoke to Paolo, I agree I understood in 10 minutes on the phone that he has a good experience on the Sondek

I have been using the Karousel for 3 weeks. I started with torque 3.5 Nm on Keel, indicated by Linn , the tool is Wera A5 2.5Nm-25Nm. Listening with Karousel at 3.5Nm is more energetic and dynamic than Cirkus, but less melodic. After several days of listening, I changed the torque to 2.6 Nm, it became more relaxed but less well defined; compared to the Cirkus the bass were round and fuzzy. Now I am at 2.7 Nm, it is better than 3.5Nm and 2.6Nm. In 1 month I will try 3Nm, 2.7Nm is very good. It is implicant and bright. With the Karousel the music and voices sound even more true! Thanks for the information of tightening couples.

Hi, noob to the forum here.

I fitted a Karousel to my LP12 yesterday and found that the original sub-chassis is too thin and the new bearing won't pull up at all.

But, what bothers me, is this text on Linn's website as below. I have a Lingo Mk1 so the power supplies are not an issue.

As much as I love my LP12, I don't have a bottomless pit of funds to keep it going, and the Karousel cost what is quite a lot of money to me, so I don't relish the idea of having to now buy a Kore just to fit the thing.

And then, the top of the outer platter now sits high compared to the new inner platter, so it looks like I've got to get a new outer platter as well, but this at least is covered by their webpage comment.

Not impressed with Linn on this.

In the end, I fitted it by cutting a shim with a modelling knife from a piece of 0.2mm thick plastic just so that I could at least have a listen, but this is far from ideal. The result is I think worse than the original bearing (not even a Cirkus, I mean a real original) that was in it before.

Maybe some suggestions on solutions have been made already in this thread, but it's very long and I haven't read all of it... sorry.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

First off, this should all have been properly sorted by the dealer who sold you the Karousel as they are supposed to fit it and do any readjustments to the suspension, etc. as necessary. i believe that Linn has a metal shim available to take care of this circumstance. I consider it less than an ideal fix so I recommend my customers get a more modern sub chassis. You do not need a Kore. If you are looking to keep the cost down I'd look for a used Cirkus sub chassis, which will work just fine. Many dealers will have clean used units that have been taken off LP12s upgraded to Kores or Keels. Since they were originally $170 for the sub chassis and it's about $100 or less for most new armboards (depending on the arm) you won't be out that much to go that way. The Majik sub chassis is $480 (same price for armboards) so that's another possibility short of a $1200 Kore.

The outer platter problem is a new on on me. Occasionally I run into an older outer platter that is a tight fit on the newer inner platters, but this was the case with Cirkus inner platters (which are the same as for the Karousel) and I didn't run into any that actually wouldn't fit. I haven't seen any with a height issue.

SewerSleuth wrote: ↑2021-01-27 23:32 Not impressed with Linn on this.

This is why Linn sell through trained dealerships to help ensure their products are correctly sold and installed.

Also heard that if you don't use a torque wrench then you can bugger things up for good but others can better advise on that.

I checked with Linn about this and they do manufacture a shim for this reason, Linn part number MISS 894

Attached is photo of the difference in levels. The outer platter is about 0.5mm higher than the inner platter.

It looks like a pretty small difference and .5mm certainly isn't much. I don't know what others think but I'm not sure I would consider that enough of a problem as to require replacement of the outer platter.

Thank you @ThomasOK

I suppose my point is that with the previous standard bearing setup there was no no difference. The inner and outer platter were at the same level with no step at all.

That makes sense, but I would think the same thing would have happened had you upgraded to a Cirkus at some point. The best thing would be to try a newer platter and see if you hear what you consider to be a worthwhile musical difference. Linn has improved machining accuracy over the years and the Mazak has changed as well so the outer platter is in at least its 5th version (if not 6th). I did find the 5th version slightly more musical than the previous but the difference was rather small.

I would not have been happy with the outer platter riding on the inner platter like this. The contact area between the two items is probably much smaller than optimal.

A new outer platter isn't very expensive and worth the improvement by itself when I listened at my dealer.

jewa wrote: ↑2021-01-29 14:47 A new outer platter isn't very expensive and worth the improvement by itself when I listened at my dealer.

I don't have a problem agreeing with this. I was just saying that I don't feel a new outer platter in necessary due to what I see.

I don't agree with HBE that the contact area is smaller as the contact area is between the bottom of the outer platter and the top of the inner platter and that wouldn't be changed by the difference in height. As to the contact of the inner circle of the outer platter with the outer circle of the inner platter it actually sounds slightly better when there is no contact there.

I'll also point out that the record is slightly thicker in the label area and some turntable manufacturers cut that part of the platter lower on purpose because of this, not that I am advocating that approach.

As I said earlier, the newer platter did sound more musical to me and as jewa points out it is not very expensive ($330 in the US). So if it bothers you you have two good excuses to buy a new one. But if you don't want to spend the money I don't believe you need to.

I think the outer platter being slightly higher than the inner platter is fine providing the underside contact surface is good. If the outer platter is not contacting the top of the inner platter mating surface completely then this is not acceptable.

I had this issue when I got my first Cirkus upgrade; the new inner platter was just slightly too big for the outer platter and would not mate flush. Unfortunately, my dealer (typical US Linn dealer) just shrugged and said "you need a new outer platter". More money in his pocket! In retrospect, I should have insisted that he replace the non-conforming Cirkus with a different one. Live and learn.

I think that you were very lucky to enjoy a truly flush horizontal surface to horizontal surface fit of the outer platter to the inner platter. I happen to have three LP12 here at the moment.

One is a year 2000 model original outer platter, cirkus from new. I have just installed a Karousel and the step up from the inner platter to the outer platter is less than a millimetre - maybe between 0.2 and 0.5mm - but it is certainly there. I still have the original inner platter and when I have a moment I shall bring them both back together to check what they were like initially. I suspect that they weren't flush, never worried about it.

The second one is a 1977 model and had a Cirkus sub-chassis and bearing installed in 2011, replacing the original. This one also has its original outer platter. The step up here is more noticeable, still less than a mm, but probably a little more than the image posted above (marginal). Again, this has never worried me, but interestingly this is the TT that like best!

The third one is from 1975. This is my dad's and, as far as I'm aware Is original apart from an Ittok, Valhalla and Nirvana - added at the time that they became available. So this is a relatively early inner/outer platter combination. They aren't a horizontal flush fit- the step is somewhere between numbers one and two above. I'm with sktn77a in thinking that it is the vertical mating surfaces that are important. All three of the ones are a close, what I would describe as 'typical' fit. Out of interest I have just tried the oldest outer platter onto the Karousel inner platter and this is tight - in fact, although I do think that it would fit - I suspect that it lies outside the expected tolerance and therefore the subject of Linn's disclaimer.

I wouldn't be happy with a shim when Cirkus subchassis are relatively easy to find, inexpensive and an improvement on the original.

ThomasOK wrote: ↑2021-01-29 17:33

jewa wrote: ↑2021-01-29 14:47 A new outer platter isn't very expensive and worth the improvement by itself when I listened at my dealer.

I don't have a problem agreeing with this. I was just saying that I don't feel a new outer platter in necessary due to what I see.

I don't agree with HBE that the contact area is smaller as the contact area is between the bottom of the outer platter and the top of the inner platter and that wouldn't be changed by the difference in height. As to the contact of the inner circle of the outer platter with the outer circle of the inner platter it actually sounds slightly better when there is no contact there.

I'll also point out that the record is slightly thicker in the label area and some turntable manufacturers cut that part of the platter lower on purpose because of this, not that I am advocating that approach.

As I said earlier, the newer platter did sound more musical to me and as jewa points out it is not very expensive ($330 in the US). So if it bothers you you have two good excuses to buy a new one. But if you don't want to spend the money I don't believe you need to.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I thought the problem was that the diameter of the Karousel inner platter was slightly bigger than the old pre-Cirkus inner platter. Not that the old outer platter is thicker than the newer ones. Is this the case?

The difference in height isn’t really a problem anymore.

A few weeks ago, I ordered a Spec+ Disc Sheet from Japan which i’d forgotten about.

It arrived yesterday and is a rigid mat, so it makes its own surface on the platter.

I have to say that this upgrade on its own has made the single biggest improvement to the accuracy if the sound. The effect is quite remarkable.

I can’t find a Cirkus chassis anywhere on the bay on its own. There are loads of pre-Cirkus ones available though. I’ll fit the shim when it arrives from linn and get a chassis at some point in the future.

Happy listening.

my bet is that I would rather live with the outer platter not matching the inner platter completely (flat/even) than replacing the felt mat with something else.

My advice to you is record the difference and put to the playground without letting us know which is which.

Checked my two LP12:s, both have the outer platter a little bit higher than the inner. One is from 86 (upgraded to circus in 90:s) and the other one has a rather new cirkus and a new outer platter from 2018.

Defender wrote: ↑2021-01-30 19:33 my bet is that I would rather live with the outer platter not matching the inner platter completely (flat/even) than replacing the felt mat with something else.

My advice to you is record the difference and put to the playground without letting us know which is which.

I agree with Defender here! I just checked my LP12 from 2020, delivered with Karousel from the factory: there's also a very slight step (0,2-0,4 mm) from the inner platter to the outer platter.

I thought I'd add to this. Being from the US I am not great at estimating fractions of mm. But I just checked three LP12s here. The customer 1988 LP12 I'm finishing up with the original pre-Cirkus bearing, and the brand new Majik LP12 I just put out a couple weeks ago with the Krane arm both have an inner platter low enough that it catches my fingernail when going from the inner to the outer platter. With the Klimax LP12 that has been on the floor for a couple of years and had the Karousel upgrade put on it early last year the difference is smaller, not enough to catch my fingernail, but the inner platter is still just a touch lower.

I asked Linn about the height difference and they said it’s fine, no need to worry. What matters is that the outer platter is a good fit axially and the suspension is correctly set.

It's arrived. Pretty simple really, with a sticky reverse side.

Best get the screwdrivers out again.

SewerSleuth wrote: ↑2021-02-06 16:51 It's arrived. Pretty simple really, with a sticky reverse side.

Hmmm.

I misunderstood. I thought the "spacer" was going to rest on top of the inner platter (under the felt mat) to negate the few millimeter difference.

Instead it lowers the entire platter system. This means you will need to lower the tonearm, readjust the bounce, and move the tonearm cable as well.

Hmmm.

I want one (and maybe two). I think it would look really cool to lower the platters and tonearm while keeping the arm-board level. Even though it would sacrifice rigidity, it would lower the center of gravity. This could make adjusting the suspension bounce easier. It could also help with some tonearms that are too tall and prevent the use of the dustcover. Some tonearms have trouble when the dustcover is down and are statically attracted to the plastic and lift off the record during play.

This spacer or shim could be called the "Klinn" and sold as an upgrade. The bounce would have to be set with the outer platter upside down. I think a stealth LP12 with low center of gravity would look really cool. It would be easier to manually cue records as well since the tonearm is lower.

Ron The Mon

The shim is for the Karousel, not the platter.

Yes, the shim goes on the underside of the sub-chassis so it lowers the Karousel and platter ~1mm. It involves a complete disassembly of the turntable (to do it properly) and a re-setup, including lowering the arm height by 1mm.

EDIT: Actually, I guess you could mount it on the upper side of the sub-chassis, if there's enough clearance between the top plate and the Karousel nut.